Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

wonderfullife wrote: »

I know from the Liverpool threads you are no fan of Maggie but that's a very blinkered view of actual events you're taking there.

Thatcher was no poodle on the scale of Blair. Without her, Gorbachev and Reagan would not have met nor moved the situation forward. She really was instrumental in that regard.

She had the foresight to invite Gorbachev to London in 1984, a full year before he became General Secretary of the Communist Party. She had the foresight to see this was a moderate who would be willing to engage with the west. She was the first major world leader to go to Moscow after Gorbachev took over.

So, no, very unlike Tony Blair she was no poodle following Regan around saying yes, sir/no, sir. She led from the front and stood up for her beliefs and nations interests. Even in Reagans own words, he described how much he valued her guidance.

This woman was far too pig-headed and headstrong to be told what to do by anybody. So you're way off the mark on this one (imo).

I'm a bit Meh on this subject.

If you'd said Tinker, Tailor, Soldier , Spy, immediately interested. Le Carre, what a writer.


Le Carre is just king, just writes about the stupidity of the spy classes.

Seaneh wrote: »

These are not the words of someone worth mourning.

Good job she didn't say them then.

The widely-quoted “cloud-cuckoo land” remark attributed to MT at the end of this article is apocryphal. As far as can be traced she never made a public comment even similar to this.

Rather the origin of the quote appears to be a response by her press spokesman, Bernard Ingham, on 16 October 1987 at the Vancouver Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. A Canadian journalist speculated that the African National Congress might overthrow the white South African regime, to which he replied: “It is cloud cuckooland for anyone to believe that could be done.” (See Washington Post, 17 Oct 1987.)

Years later the words were modified and attributed to MT by Hugo Young, who claimed that she had said at Vancouver: “Anyone who thinks that the ANC is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land”. (See The Guardian, 26 Apr 1994.) In that form they became part of the journalistic ‘record’.

Edit:

K-9 wrote:

People don't realise how lucky she was in 84. If she'd stayed in the same place as she did before in the Grand Hotel, she was gone. MaGee did everything right.

The only reason she was moved higher up in the hotel was miners protests. It's a fascinating storey, it only takes the IRA to get lucky, but in this case Maggie got lucky. All it took was a bomb in a bath panel.

This must be some republican old wives tale. The conferences tend to move around the country between north and south each year so it would have been at least 2 years since she last stayed there, maybe more, so it's not like she had her 'usual room' each year. More likely he asked for high level sea front room (as those are the best in the house, hence likely where she'd stay) and thought he'd used enough to bring the whole place down.

Nodin wrote: »

She did refer to them as a "terrorist" organisation and refused to bring in sanctions, however.

They (well, MK) were a terrorist organisation, though not particularly prolific when compared to those groups in NI. It's hard not to apply the sobriquet when they were bombing shops, bars and town centres.

I don't have time to go into Thatcher and apartheid sanctions. Just because she opposed some sanctions (and many were implemented regardless) does not mean she was pro apartheid. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

History will be a lot kinder to Margaret Thatcher than we think. Yes she messed up in Northern Ireland and with the Poll Tax. But she also brought Britain back from the brink of economic collapse by crushing the unions who at the time controlled the country to its economic detriment. The unions were single handedly responsible for Britain's economic crisis of the mid 1970s. I mean jesus the IMF had to come in to rescue the country.

Production was at an all time low, there were strikes every second week and power outages were common. Thatcher changed all this. Yes she probably went too far but she obviously thought the unions and Scargill had to be defeated for the betterment of the country as a whole. I can't help but feel that a lot of the hatred directed towards her was because she was a woman.

I also feel she was 100% correct to defend the Falklands from Argentine aggression. The island's inhabitants have continually voted to remain a British Overseas Territory, they were never even Argentina's to begin with. It was a wholly illegal invasion and Britain was more than within its rights to fight it.

gurramok wrote: »

So says the poster who posts :rolleyes:

So you dont think she was subject to misogyny on a wide scale?

SamHall wrote: »

Would you not think, seeing as how your post didn't mention SF or Republicans in general, that perhaps I wasn't referring to you?

Well your post came just after mine, and i seeing as i was somewhat "defending" some of her policies, i assumed it was aimed at me, amongst others.

Her objective in Ireland was a 3 tiered policy.
Introduction of Normalisation (making the British presence look normal and acceptable, as British as Finchley).
Ulsterisation (To reduce British casualties, removal of british troops and handing of security over to local police and intelligence officers)
Criminalisation ( to paint insurgents as criminal thugs and apolitical gangs. To treat their prisoners as common criminals.)
Today in 2013, do you see this as accomplished?


Her policy in the 80's-90's was to coax and goad Sinn Fein into Constitutional politics, often she made statements challenging them to give up the Armalite and stand in elections.
SF were eventually sucked into Constitional politics.
She was often quoted as saying "there can be no change in the Constitional Question until the "majority in Northern Ireland give their consent"
Back then, SF called this the "Unionist Veto."
Now Thatcher's position is the official Sinn Fein position.

People above say her policies in the North were disastrous.
For Unionism it was manna from Heaven.
She achieved (apart from the dissident thorn) almost all her set aims.

When Thatcher came to power she adopted the prayer of St. Francis as her mission statement.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.

If this is the yardstick by which her success or failure is measured, then she failed miserably.