Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

MMAGirl wrote: »

i'm private sector and it amazes me that so many people think that there is no waste in the private sector. They must have their eyes closed at work every day.

Unless they get favours from the government, I don't care because it will affect their bottom line only. If people don't like their products, the company will either improve or go out of business.

MMAGirl wrote: »

Lots of the arguments are that the country is broke and to remedy that you have to take money out of PS workers pockets or tax home owners.
But really the remedy is that you tax everyone equally and not try tax one section more and others less. You raise income tax across both public and private sectors the same.

Tax increases were the same for everyone.

MMAGirl wrote: »

You charge a council tax to everyone, not just the people who own the building they live in. Fair is fair.

We don't have a council tax.

MMAGirl wrote: »

The fact that Ps might have different conditions of employment to you makes no odds. In the private sector every job has dofferent conditions of employment to the next. some have great pension schemes, others have none. or some pay more for less hours than others. I worked for a company last year that paid €300 a month towards employees mortgages or rent whether they had those expenses or not. They also gave a meal allowance of €90 per month. I had friends doing the same job for other companies who didnt get those things or got different things. All jobs are different, believe it or not.

The only people i know whos salaries havent gone up over the last couple of years are PS employees. even Ryanair salaries are going up 10 %

Last time I checked Ryanair and other private companies increasing wages were profitable and the state was bankrupt.

carpejugulum wrote: »

Unless they get favours from the government, I don't care because it will affect their bottom line only. If people don't like their products, the company will either improve or go out of business.


Tax increases were the same for everyone.

We don't have a council tax.

Last time I checked Ryanair and other private companies increasing wages were profitable and the state was bankrupt.

The country is not going to go out of business and in case you havent noticed a country is not the same as a company. dont make the mistake of assuming it is.

tax increases were not the same for everybody. dont know,where you got that one. and the ps got more levies than everybody else too.

i know we,dont have a council tax. i said thats what we should have instead of a property tax, not that we have one already.

the ryanair example gave was for all the people pretending that workers in the private sectors salaries are going down.
the other day i was talking to a couple of ex-colleagues and they were complaining about the ps sectors allowances and that they should taken away. these guys get €400 a month in meal and accommodation allowances from their company and yet when challenged on this think they should keep them, but ps workers should lose their allowances. "its part our pay" they said. well im sure ps workers agree that allowances are part of pay too.


The problem in ireland is that everyone wants someone else to pay instead of to share the pain equally.

Unless they get favours from the government, I don't care because it will affect their bottom line only. If people don't like their products, the company will either improve or go out of business.

This shows the limitations of your oft repeated, but largely useless, analogy with private companies. St Vincent's hospital or TCD do not face a lack of demand for their products, people are literally queuing up for their services. If they have funding problem it is because the problem lies with the price charged for their services.

ardmacha wrote: »

This shows the limitations of your oft repeated, but largely useless, analogy with private companies. St Vincent's hospital or TCD do not face a lack of demand for their products, people are literally queuing up for their services. If they have funding problem it is because the problem lies with the price charged for their services.

What has wages got to do with demand for service?

ardmacha wrote: »

There are continual posts about the private sector. If this is relevant, then please provide an example of a private sector organisation in 2013 with buoyant demand for its services which is cutting wages.

High demand means more staff and medical facilities needed which unless we all pay lots more taxes, we will still have an overburdened health system.
Yes a comparision to a private company is ridiculous but wages is part and parcel of the whole public services paybill too. Correct me if im wrong or did I read nearly 60% in some sectors. You just cannot ignore it.

ardmacha wrote: »

There are continual posts about the private sector. If this is relevant, then please provide an example of a private sector organisation in 2013 with buoyant demand for its services which is cutting wages.

Over the last 5 years we have cuts in services. In private organisations in the event of a down turn or demand drops staff and wages are cut they then drop prices to generate demand for there products.

Even though demand for services in County Councils we have seen no dramatic fall in staff numbers, this is the same across the PS, in area's like public works. In Semi State bodies such as Bus Eireann, An Post, Aer Rianta. We still have about 10 fisheries services and how many Fire Chiefs.

It is either Wages or Staff numbers.

Godge wrote: »

Looking at the bit in bold, what do you mean by dramatic?

"
Staffing levels in the local government sector have been reduced by 5,000

in the period between mid-2008 and early 2010. This represented a

reduction of over 13% in the overall number of local government staff, which

has contributed significantly to the reduction of the cost base of local

government"


Now that is from a 2010 report and numbers have fallen since then.

If you are going to post rubbish, at least post informed rubbish.

Most private organisations would not consider a 15% drop in head count dramatic where income had reduced by nearly 50%.

Given the ongoing colapse in labour support, especially in the recent by election, and the resignation from the parlamentary party; taken with the obvious opposition to the proposed cut in PS salaries and terms and conditions; as well as the threat of industrial action by teachers, doctors and nurses (so far), (and despite some of the ill informed comments in this and other fora, the proposed cuts are drastic enough to force many already struggling PS out of the job or into financial dire straights), if the union members reject the proposals in CP2, how likely are the labour back bench to support the hinted at legislation?

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Nothing the unions and PS have no issue with tacking waste when it will effect PS jobs. The reality is that over the last 20 years there has been over 5 attempts to reform the PS. All have failed miserably all have been stymied by union and worker intransient.

You have PS staff now talking about stepping back work practises as a form of industrial action. In other words they intend not to do there work. In the private sector if that happened these staff would be at least suspended with a view of removing them from the payroll.

Then again they may get a shock if they go on a work to rule as the may find that they may have to work harder

id say its more likely that the rest of us would get a shock how much we actually rely on the PS instead.

i was thinking about that the other day. they will have a massive amount of power if they stick together, but only if they stick together.

i still think its unfair to expect the PS to take more hits than the rest of us to save the country money. so im not surprised they have finally grown a spine.

The reality is that over the last 20 years there has been over 5 attempts to reform the PS. All have failed miserably all have been stymied by union and worker intransient.

Attempts at reform my backside. You might as well say that I made 5 attempts to go on a diet in the last 20 years. Talking about reform is mere puff, you need detailed analysis. Where in recent "talks" was there any concept of reform? Has there been a proper detailed review of changes introduced under CP1, has there been a proper attempt to focus on getting such changes where they have not taken place?

I'm not saying that there hasn't been intransigence, but the hard questions have never been posed because doing so would require actual management, not buck passing. My confidence is rapidly diminishing, as even in a major crisis there seems to be no change in this attitude, or even appreciation of the dire need for change. Even worse commentators, be they on this forum or in the media, are happy with this as it lets them spin their own simplistic counter analysis of the situation.