Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

sean200 · 05-04-2013 02:52PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

My point is very few Labour backbenchers will look forward to imposing such draconian measures on PS employees. But if they do then so be it. Singing their own political death warrent.

As to our options? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But to expect us to accept such conditions in this vote in Looney tunes stuff.

For now just vote NO
This was a bullying attempt by a government that has done nothing but bullying the irish people and create a nanny state.
It is time some sector stood up to those idiot running this country and I hope that the PS take on the fight and take labour out of power
If this agreement is implement it will then be a template for every employer in this state to reduce wages and create a low wage economy and more profits for the employers
The troika , imf and FG want to slash wages across this county
VOTE NO VOTE NO and let them impose the 7% cut but at the very least you will have called their bluff, forced their hand and you will not have allowed yourself to be bullied.
Vote no for the sake of every employee in this country

sean200 · 05-04-2013 02:55PM

antoobrien wrote: »

The unions won't let it happen though, because they realise themselves that they'd be bankrupt very quickly.

Anybody I've talked to thinks the unions and PS workers are already living on a different planet, so I think they could be in for a bit of a shock if they take on any action that curtails services.

and the shock being??
And don't say public opinion or support because they are well passed worrying about that.

antoobrien · 05-04-2013 03:12PM

sean200 wrote: »

and the shock being??
And don't say public opinion or support because they are well passed worrying about that.

Many of them don't realise the fact that their complaints aren't given much weight, so they will get a shock when told to gfo.

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 05:08PM

sean200 wrote: »

For now just vote NO
This was a bullying attempt by a government that has done nothing but bullying the irish people and create a nanny state.
It is time some sector stood up to those idiot running this country and I hope that the PS take on the fight and take labour out of power
If this agreement is implement it will then be a template for every employer in this state to reduce wages and create a low wage economy and more profits for the employers
The troika , imf and FG want to slash wages across this county
VOTE NO VOTE NO and let them impose the 7% cut but at the very least you will have called their bluff, forced their hand and you will not have allowed yourself to be bullied.
Vote no for the sake of every employee in this country

Cheers Sean.

We have nothing to lose in voting No.

It shows we have the feckers shatting themselves with Howlin coming out with the scare mongering of the 7%.

This is getting very interesting

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 05:09PM

sean200 wrote: »

and the shock being??
And don't say public opinion or support because they are well passed worrying about that.

Spot on.

'Public support' was never on the cards.

Head The Wall · 05-04-2013 05:53PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Cheers Sean.

We have nothing to lose in voting No.

It shows we have the feckers shatting themselves with Howlin coming out with the scare mongering of the 7%.

This is getting very interesting

So you would be happier with a no vote and then a compulsory pay cut for everyone?

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 06:09PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

So you would be happier with a no vote and then a compulsory pay cut for everyone?

Firstly I don't believe there will be an immediate payct of such proportions across the bard. However if Howlin is hellbent on it, lets see him convince his backbenchers.

Worst case scenario is that a paycut of some sort is forced on us. Is that worse than us, acepting paycuts, possible removal of flexi, working for free on a sixth day of the week, the principle of Compulsory redundancy introduced and outsourcing of our work?

In my opinion, no, its not...

MMAGirl · 05-04-2013 06:47PM

Im not PS, but no way would I stand for the treatment they are getting.
Universally hated. They have taken higher cuts in their take home than anyone I know. And dont say oh, the unemployed have taken more cuts. You cant put responsibility on others for that fact you are unemployable. Do something about it yourself.

Dont get me wrong, i really hate paying tax, but I would rather everyone was taxed a little bit more than hitting just one set of workers with cuts.

If the PS stick together they will be VERY powerful if they strike, or even work to rule. But only if they stick together. The government have successfully split the private and public sectors. Now they are trying to split the different parts of the PS. The PS would be very stupid to fall for this.

Fair play to them for standing up I say. If they had done this before then they wouldnt be getting the sh1t they are getting this time around from the government.

I have a friend who works in Quinns office and he was telling me that their next strategy is to split the teaching unions. And him with family who are teachers. Im sure the rest of them are working to such strategies too.

carpejugulum · 05-04-2013 07:17PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not PS, but no way would I stand for the treatment they are getting.
Universally hated. They have taken higher cuts in their take home than anyone I know. And dont say oh, the unemployed have taken more cuts. You cant put responsibility on others for that fact you are unemployable. Do something about it yourself.

Dont get me wrong, i really hate paying tax, but I would rather everyone was taxed a little bit more than hitting just one set of workers with cuts.

If the PS stick together they will be VERY powerful if they strike, or even work to rule. But only if they stick together. The government have successfully split the private and public sectors. Now they are trying to split the different parts of the PS. The PS would be very stupid to fall for this.

Fair play to them for standing up I say. If they had done this before then they wouldnt be getting the sh1t they are getting this time around from the government.

I have a friend who works in Quinns office and he was telling me that their next strategy is to split the teaching unions. And him with family who are teachers. Im sure the rest of them are working to such strategies too.

Their employer is broke. They should thank the taxpayer for only having to take small cuts.

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 07:29PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

Their employer is broke. They should thank the taxpayer for only having to take small cuts.

Straight from the Eddie Hobbs School of Charm

cosbloodymick · 05-04-2013 07:42PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

Their employer is broke. They should thank the taxpayer for only having to take small cuts.

My Income down almost 25% since the start of the crisis, that is a very large cut as far as I am concerned.

skafish · 05-04-2013 08:56PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

Their employer is broke. They should thank the taxpayer for only having to take small cuts.

And a large part of the reason for the employer being broke is the failure of that employer to carry out its own resposibilities vis the black economy, welfare fraud and obscene amounts of money wasted by the government itself.

Farmer Pudsey · 05-04-2013 09:09PM

skafish wrote: »

And a large part of the reason for the employer being broke is the failure of that employer to carry out its own resposibilities vis the black economy, welfare fraud and obscene amounts of money wasted by the government itself.

I have yet to see where we can save 12 billion from even all of the above. If the government manages to save 1 billion from the black economy it would take a massive effort. It would require PS to actually do there job.

Yes there is massive amounts of money wasted in the government again savings in the order of 500 million would require huge effort.

Welfare fraud is only the tip of the issue in reality we have allowed a dependency culture to develop. However to achieve savings of more than 2 billion would require a massive change in culture. These are rough figures. The government need continue making large adjustments over the next 3 years. All cannot be tax increases, all cannot be cuts in services and in reality the present deal that certain sections of the PS got in this deal is amazing. Yet your average PS cannot see that.

Like I said earlier I hope they reject it might bring labour to it senses and understand that there is no point giving into a spoilt child.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2013 09:26PM

iba wrote: »

Another line the Official side/Government side took at the outset was that they wanted to get rid of overtime (sorry this should read flexitime) completely for all staff at HEO level.

ASFAIK - if this deal does not go through, all Civil Servants will be hit with a 6-7% pay cut full stop.

As it stands now, IMO, staff with salaries lower than €65K, which includes all COs SOs and EOs and 99% of AOs and HEOs, have gotten off very lightly.

I'm one who supposedly has got off 'very lightly' :rolleyes: I'll be lucky in ten years time if I earn as much as I was five years ago, but 'we are where we are' eh?

The increase in hours is worth a 5.6% pay cut, so I say if the alternative is a 6 or 7% pay cut then bring it on. At least I'll retain my self-respect and still get to tuck my kids into bed at night.

And then they can shove any notion of flexibility and change. Their loss.

skafish · 05-04-2013 09:32PM

It mat also be worthwhile to ask at this stage what would result if the PS accept this deal:
On the one hand you have the government stating that if CP2 goes through this will be the last time they attack their own employees.
On the other, you have a gang of muppets in power who seem to be prepared to do anything to hold onto power, regardless of their own lies and broken promices.
How many of their pre election promices have they actually kept?
What guarantee is there that their promice not to attack the PS again will be kept?

NONE.

Bear in mind that this proposal is being championed by Enda Kenny, who was, until recently, still being paid as a full time teacher (albeit paying sombody else a part time wage to actually teach his classes. He got to keep the holiday pay and pension benifits that accrued.) while "working" as a TD.
He recently played up the fact that his salary will be reduced under these proposals, but forgot to tell us that on top of his salary, he also get €40k as party leader, plus more expences than most families have to live on.

rodento · 05-04-2013 09:33PM

I'd happily keep my current terms and conditions if offered a 7% cut, wages may change in time but extra hours/less leave is the kinda thing you'll end up stuck with

Sand · 05-04-2013 09:39PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not PS, but no way would I stand for the treatment they are getting.

Neither would I.

The terrible pay, conditions and pensions inflicted on public sector workers are the most terrible injustice in Ireland since the great famine. No, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest. Sure weren't we only told by the trade unions that the Troika were worse than 800 years of British rule last month? I think 100 years from now, ballads will be sung and memorials raised to ensure no one forgets this tragedy where cloth was cut to measure.

The victims of this savage and cruel treatment should all quit, and get those better paying jobs with better conditions and better pensions in the private sector they richly deserve. Really doubt they will though.

Seriously though - the trade unions made their bed. They happily lined up with the government to screw everyone else with Croke Park 1. They are now getting picked off themselves. Good riddance.

skafish · 05-04-2013 09:40PM

rodento wrote: »

I'd happily keep my current terms and conditions if offered a 7% cut, wages may change in time but extra hours/less leave is the kinda thing you'll end up stuck with

At least with a flat rate pay cut, there is some hope of regaining lost ground in the future; the other elements of these proposals represent a complete change in terms and conditions that will never be reinstated.

ardmacha · 05-04-2013 10:00PM

If you think you are worth more, quit. That's what people in the private sector do. But when your employer goes bankrupt in the private sector, you don't get to choose.

So if people do quit, how is the national interest served? If you need VHI to get the best doctors, if the bio-technology lecturers feck off to work for drug companies and the computer science lecturers to work for Google, if the Business Intelligence guy that is needed to detect welfare fraud goes off to work for an insurance company, how does this advance things? The wasters in the PS will not leave, so things will only get worse. Employers do go bankrupt in the private sector, but other employers take up the slack, they are not monopoly providers of services as the State is.

carpejugulum · 05-04-2013 10:05PM

If you think you are worth more, quit. That's what people in the private sector do. But when your employer goes bankrupt in the private sector, you don't get to choose.

Why, for example, does Ireland with a population of 4.6 million have 29 Chief Fire Officers when Scotland with a population of 5.3 million has just 8?
Isn't it thanks to your precious unions fighting for those jobs?

And you dare complain?

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 10:12PM

rodento wrote: »

I'd happily keep my current terms and conditions if offered a 7% cut, wages may change in time but extra hours/less leave is the kinda thing you'll end up stuck with

Absolutely.

Farmer Pudsey · 05-04-2013 10:20PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

If you think you are worth more, quit. That's what people in the private sector do. But when your employer goes bankrupt in the private sector, you don't get to choose.

Why, for example, does Ireland with a population of 4.6 million have 29 Chief Fire Officers when Scotland with a population of 5.3 million has just 8?
Isn't it thanks to your precious unions fighting for those jobs?

And you dare complain?

And how many Assistant Chief Fire Officers. No General can be without an officer class. In the Irish PS we seem to have a lot of Chiefs and no Indians. This is wide spread across services. Managers seem to have an issue with managing staff. There seems to be a culture if anything is to be done you tender it out to a private operator or set up a QUANGO.

skafish · 05-04-2013 10:26PM

carpejugulum wrote: »

If you think you are worth more, quit. That's what people in the private sector do. But when your employer goes bankrupt in the private sector, you don't get to choose.

Why, for example, does Ireland with a population of 4.6 million have 29 Chief Fire Officers when Scotland with a population of 5.3 million has just 8?
Isn't it thanks to your precious unions fighting for those jobs?

And you dare complain?

Nobody is saying there isn't room for improvement. However, the current CP2 proposals will only make things a lot worse.

Instead of cutting the salaries and T&Cs of staff, which will, in my opinion, actually cost a lot more than the €1B supposed savings, the system should be used to get rid of fraud in the SW and the black economy.

This will result in savings in excess of the proposed savings, and by forcing people from the black to the real economy, decrease the dole queues and increase the tax take.

Simples

Farmer Pudsey · 05-04-2013 10:30PM

skafish wrote: »

Nobody is saying there isn't room for improvement. However, the current CP2 proposals will only make things a lot worse.

Instead of cutting the salaries and T&Cs of staff, which will, in my opinion, actually cost a lot more than the €1B supposed savings, the system should be used to get rid of fraud in the SW and the black economy.

This will result in savings in excess of the proposed savings, and by forcing people from the black to the real economy, decrease the dole queues and increase the tax take.

Simples

So waste is acceptable as long as it is with in the PS but imagined waste in other sectors must be attacked even if the tackling of this waste is the job of the PS.

skafish · 05-04-2013 10:36PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So waste is acceptable as long as it is with in the PS but imagined waste in other sectors must be attacked even if the tackling of this waste is the job of the PS.

Who said waste is acceptable?:(

Vizzy · 05-04-2013 10:41PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So waste is acceptable as long as it is with in the PS but imagined waste in other sectors must be attacked even if the tackling of this waste is the job of the PS.

Who mentioned anything about waste being acceptable ?
There are huge savings to be made if we cut the likes of child benefit from people over a certain threshold,cutting social welfare fraud and my favorite-Higher Education Grants to those over,say €50,000(and not accepting a cert from some clever accountant who can certify an income of €30,000 even though he has a farm of 100 acres or a house worth €1m)

Dreamertime · 05-04-2013 10:47PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So waste is acceptable as long as it is with in the PS but imagined waste in other sectors must be attacked even if the tackling of this waste is the job of the PS.

You failed miserably in seling this deal to PS workers here so you resort to spurious propaganda in order to wind us up.

Infantile at best.

Farmer Pudsey · 05-04-2013 11:04PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

You failed miserably in seling this deal to PS workers here so you resort to spurious propaganda in order to wind us up.

Infantile at best.

I am not trying to sell it I actually believe it will be the best thing for the country if the PS reject it. Then the government might finally have the balls to govern the country. I actually believe that for admin staff it is an amazing deal. A nurse working 37 hours a week will get about a 4-7% pay cut along with an hours and a half extra no matter how much they earn. As well some will lose an increment or else two days holidays. An administrator earning 60K get no cut and works 2 hours extra a week from a shorter working week.

The Black economy and Welfare fraud are the problem of the PS to manage which they have failed miserably over the last 50 years to manage.

If you look at other threads I have always felt that the 3rd level grant scheme is unfair. However there is a point that maybe accrued pension values should be taken into account as well. These should be valued by an actuary not by a Benchmarking report.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2013 11:27PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So waste is acceptable as long as it is with in the PS but imagined waste in other sectors must be attacked even if the tackling of this waste is the job of the PS.

The public sector can't tackle welfare fraud if politicians won't let them (fear of losing votes). They can't stop waste like decentralisation if waste is the whole point of the policy (buy rural votes.) If you think this sort of thing stopped when FF were kicked out, think on.

MMAGirl · 06-04-2013 02:49AM

i'm private sector and it amazes me that so many people think that there is no waste in the private sector. They must have their eyes closed at work every day.

Lots of the arguments are that the country is broke and to remedy that you have to take money out of PS workers pockets or tax home owners.
But really the remedy is that you tax everyone equally and not try tax one section more and others less. You raise income tax across both public and private sectors the same. You charge a council tax to everyone, not just the people who own the building they live in. Fair is fair.

The fact that Ps might have different conditions of employment to you makes no odds. In the private sector every job has dofferent conditions of employment to the next. some have great pension schemes, others have none. or some pay more for less hours than others. I worked for a company last year that paid €300 a month towards employees mortgages or rent whether they had those expenses or not. They also gave a meal allowance of €90 per month. I had friends doing the same job for other companies who didnt get those things or got different things. All jobs are different, believe it or not.

The only people i know whos salaries havent gone up over the last couple of years are PS employees. even Ryanair salaries are going up 10 %

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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