Season 3 Episode 16 - Welcome to the Tombs (SPOILERS)

FlyingIrishMan · 02-04-2013 03:32PM

Gbear wrote: »

I think that they've already stuck with him doing some heinous ****.
To stop now would be doing the Nuremberg defence on it a bit. In for a penny in for a pound and all that.

They murdered those soldiers. They were happy feeding the prison people to zombies.

Ah but there is a difference between murdering random soldiers who could be a threat to you, and gunning down people you have lived with and made friends with over the past few months.

02-04-2013 03:45PM

No one mentioned how the governor went around blasting them in the head after?

Tell ya, he's a big softie underneath that psycho exterior!

SantryRed · 02-04-2013 03:52PM

It's gone so downhill. What was the point in even killing Merle?

Barely anything has actually happened in the past few episodes of note. Well for a good reason at least. The way they killed Andrea was crap, killing Merle, I just don't get it. They built up to this finale and it was a steaming pile of ****e. It makes the past few filler episodes as bad as well.

Gbear · 02-04-2013 05:32PM

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Ah but there is a difference between murdering random soldiers who could be a threat to you, and gunning down people you have lived with and made friends with over the past few months.

There's a leap there but not as big as you're suggesting. These guys are already murderers. They're also quite clearly subservient to him. Seeing some of the appalling **** that humans are capable of suggests that their actions aren't that outrageous.

Calibos · 02-04-2013 05:54PM

I think Karl made the right call tbh.

"See, I'm putting down the gun! ....[As I slowly walk towards you with the gun still in my hand, that with a flick of the wrist will be back aimed at your head}

Dempsey · 02-04-2013 06:24PM

Calibos wrote: »

I think Karl made the right call tbh.

"See, I'm putting down the gun! ....[As I slowly walk towards you with the gun still in my hand, that with a flick of the wrist will be back aimed at your head}

He definitely wasnt going to put down the gun without a fight imo

Hershel was too stupid to see that

wonderfullife · 02-04-2013 11:28PM

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

I've defended this season so far, I haven't hated any episode. But that episode was extremely disappointing. As a standalone episode itself it was great, but as a season finale it was abysmal.. no closure at all. I don't want another season in the prison.

Anyone on this forum knows i've been a huge supporter of Season 3 - but i can't agree it was a good episode even as a standalone. It was poor by that standard. Even worse in terms of being a season finale.

When Andrea had the pliars in her toes, i said to myself if she drops this i'm switching it off.

Points:

There was no tension throughout the episode. No stand-off between the 2 camps.

Milton and Andrea die. Fair enough, 2 peripheral and/or frustrating characters. For Andreas death to have an emotional resonance, she needed to be liked. She wasn't. So her death scene was emotionally redundant. In fact, i probably felt worse when Axel was killed. Poor fella.

Michonne barely speaks a word all season yet in the Finale we are to buy her tears for Andrea? You can't scowl all season then break down like a blubbering mess and pass that for character development. Ditto Rick saying "you're one of US". Well, last i checked she wasn't welcome at the prison or greeted with open arms.

Tyerese woefully underused since his introduction, his presence in the Finale was more or less negligible.

The Gov goes off the rails and massacres a bunch of nobodies who haven't spoken a word all season. In short, nobody cares.

It's sad that a season with such standout episodes could end on such a flat note. Plenty to look forward to next season but for the average, non-dedicated fan sadly this Finale may well be the prompt to give up on the show.

Nevertheless, let us not forget that despite this frankly awful Finale, season 3 brought us episodes such as Killer Within, Clear and This Sorrowful Life. For different reasons both Killer Within and Clear could easily win awards for episodic brilliance.

Sadly our finale, Welcome to the Tombs, was not a patch on earlier episodes and could be the final nail in the coffin for many a casual fan.

FlyingIrishMan · 02-04-2013 11:51PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Michonne barely speaks a word all season yet in the Finale we are to buy her tears for Andrea? You can't scowl all season then break down like a blubbering mess and pass that for character development. Ditto Rick saying "you're one of US". Well, last i checked she wasn't welcome at the prison or greeted with open arms.

You're forgetting that Andrea and Michonne spent a couple of months together alone before Season 3. She didn't know Rick and his group, she didn't know if she could trust them, and Rick was pretty harsh towards her at the beginning. People grow attached to people, opinions change. Just because Rick isn't welcoming of her when he first meets her doesn't mean he can't be a month or two later.

I think the rest of your points are more opinion based so I won't counterpoint them.

Lone Stone · 03-04-2013 12:09AM

I think the show can redeem it self by releasing a promo of Carl walking around the prison putting bullets in everyone's head then cut to him and rick on the road BAH BAHhh bAHHmmm

wonderfullife · 03-04-2013 12:45AM

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

You're forgetting that Andrea and Michonne spent a couple of months together alone before Season 3. She didn't know Rick and his group, she didn't know if she could trust them, and Rick was pretty harsh towards her at the beginning. People grow attached to people, opinions change. Just because Rick isn't welcoming of her when he first meets her doesn't mean he can't be a month or two later.

I think the rest of your points are more opinion based so I won't counterpoint them.

I don't think you read my point properly - Andrea and Michonne spent closer to 8 months together, not a couple of months, but given everything the lack of emotional character development from Michonne, it's tough to buy into her tears and actions at the end.

Effectively what i'm saying is for that scene to pack a punch, we need to care deeply for Andrea and Michonne. In general, the audience doesn't care at all about the former and not much about the latter. So the scene felt hollow.

And yes, Andrea may well have been welcomed back by both Rick and Michonne. And yes they would both have been upset at her death. But for it to resonate with us (the viewer) we need to care about her. And frankly, most of us didn't.

(some all of my points are opinion based lol)

Syferus · 03-04-2013 03:16AM

I actually don't think it was a bad episode on its own but in the context of a season finale it fell very flat. I guess the Governor storyline's length is dictated by the comics but it really felt like it was time to off him and move on to greener pastures next season, no matter what the comic book did. I just don't know what else you can get out of the Governor character so having him return in the future seems a pretty fruitless exercise.

The worst dialogue was in the cold open but besides there wasn't too much to complain about.

Strange, strange season. Started so brilliantly but trialled off badly. It really felt like an anti-climatic resolution to the season and that leaves the pit falls the show fell into in the previous episodes very exposed by not having led to a decent pay-off.

scudzilla · 03-04-2013 03:51AM

This is turning into another LOST

Great start but progressively getting worse.

Loved Season 1

Season 2 was ok but too much time spent on the farm

Season 3 has been very mediocre

Sleepy · 03-04-2013 09:43AM

My biggest complaint about the episode was the length of time spent on Andrea. They really seem to have underestimated the hatred for her character among their viewers. Her death should have been quick or brutal. No-one was invested enough in the character for a dramatic and drawn out "tragic" death.

Grimebox · 03-04-2013 09:52AM

Sleepy wrote: »

My biggest complaint about the episode was the length of time spent on Andrea. They really seem to have underestimated the hatred for her character among their viewers. Her death should have been quick or brutal. No-one was invested enough in the character for a dramatic and drawn out "tragic" death.

I don't think they should tailor to fans as the show goes on. They should have conviction and belief in what they are writing. I agree that her death was bland at best but they shouldn't have ****ed up her character so badly in the first place to wind up in that situation.

Sleepy · 03-04-2013 09:59AM

True, but when you make a mistake, you correct it. Her character was awful and you simply can't create dramatic tension with a character no-one cares about. In a show like this, the writers have the luxury of being able to kill off their mistakes. Not doing it expediently is a waste of screen time.

wonderfullife · 03-04-2013 06:20PM

Sleepy wrote: »

True, but when you make a mistake, you correct repeat it. Her character was awful and you simply can't create dramatic tension with a character no-one cares about. In a show like this, the writers have the luxury of being able to kill off their mistakes. Not doing it expediently is a waste of screen time.

FYP.

The Andrea-centric episodes have been uniformly the weakest, worst of an otherwise good season. Yet despite this they choose to make the centre-piece Finale more or less Andrea-centric. Making mistakes as writers is fine but repeating the mistakes is a sin.

Despite everything going on in the episode, it was very much a pay-off episode for her character. This is a serious error of judgement by the writing team imo as the character just didn't have the likeability or substance to warrant a showpiece send-off.

Even the manner of her death summed up the character. Instead of talking the hind-legs off Milton, get the fcuking pliars in your hands and get out of the chair. Talk to him all you want once you're free!! What sort of dime-bar logic is that!!

MagicMarker · 03-04-2013 07:21PM

That was fúcking atrocious.

When it ended I was like "wuuuut?", had to check to make sure there wasn't one more episode left.

FFS.

mrbrown69 · 03-04-2013 08:43PM

I LOL at Milton

"when. I. turn. find. a. sharp. object. and. stab. me. in. the. head!! fullstop" was he morphing into a Dalek or a flesh eating creature of the afterlife.....when he did turn he looked more a member of Spandau Ballet than owt else

awful awful actor....by far the worst I have ever seen anywhere

T-K-O · 03-04-2013 08:49PM

Solid episode but a disappointing finale over all.

Carl has becoming unbearable AGAIN. Someone needs to bite him.

Delighted the Governor survived the series (despite him leaving the trunk behind). Morrissey is brilliant in that role

Gbear · 03-04-2013 08:51PM

mrbrown69 wrote: »

I LOL at Milton

"when. I. turn. find. a. sharp. object. and. stab. me. in. the. head!! fullstop" was he morphing into a Dalek or a flesh eating creature of the afterlife.....when he did turn he looked more a member of Spandau Ballet than owt else

awful awful actor....by far the worst I have ever seen anywhere

What does someone who's been stabbed in the stomach and is bleeding to death sound like?

T-K-O · 03-04-2013 08:54PM

That sounds something like ..............WOFF WOFF

mrbrown69 · 03-04-2013 09:43PM

Gbear wrote: »

What does someone who's been stabbed in the stomach and is bleeding to death sound like?

They can sound any way you want in. the. movies.

A Neurotic · 04-04-2013 04:24PM

I've watched this twice now. I've decided that I really, really like it. I get that it's flawed, and I get the disappointment, but for me, it hit just the right note.

It flipped all of our expectations on their heads, and I think that's to be admired. We got a taste of prison vs Woodbury physical battle, but ultimately what we really saw was the natural conclusion of the battle of Rick's ideology versus the Governor's: the Governor completely falling apart and Rick conclusively stepping up to the plate, once more a hero. The Gov wanted to rule, through lies and fear, with no human connection. Rick and co. have realised that there's no point living without human connection. Gov massacring his people and Rick taking in the Woodbury survivors is the perfect representation of this. I think this ideological mirroring cuts right to the core of The Walking Dead, in a way that the prison massacre we were all expecting couldn't.

Also, I absolutely love the opening montage of the prison group packing up, with this incredible music in the background tying together small strands of dialogue, and the closing scene of the newcomers piling in to the prison with walkers in the sun outside the fence. Love love love the direction in this episode.

MagicMarker · 04-04-2013 04:28PM

A Neurotic wrote: »

I've watched this twice now. I've decided that I really, really like it. I get that it's flawed, and I get the disappointment, but for me, it hit just the right note.

It flipped all of our expectations on their heads, and I think that's to be admired. We got a taste of prison vs Woodbury physical battle, but ultimately what we really saw was the natural conclusion of the battle of Rick's ideology versus the Governor's: the Governor completely falling apart and Rick conclusively stepping up to the plate, once more a hero. The Gov wanted to rule, through lies and fear, with no human connection. Rick and co. have realised that there's no point living without human connection. Gov massacring his people and Rick taking in the Woodbury survivors is the perfect representation of this. I think this ideological mirroring cuts right to the core of The Walking Dead, in a way that the prison massacre we were all expecting couldn't.

Also, I absolutely love the opening montage of the prison group packing up, with this incredible music in the background tying together small strands of dialogue, and the closing scene of the newcomers piling in to the prison with walkers in the sun outside the fence. Love love love the direction in this episode.

I see.

Actually, no, it was awful. Really truly awful.

Grimebox · 04-04-2013 06:44PM

I too liked it.

I can still acknowledge that it was absolutely woeful though.

Syferus · 04-04-2013 07:02PM

In simple terms the objective failures of the finale are unforgivable - we didn't get any real conclusion to the Governor storyline nor did it set the stakes for season four. I just can't see how anyone can defend that.

FlyingIrishMan · 04-04-2013 07:15PM

I still think if that was a double episode, and they concluded the Governor story in the second half it would have been an amazing episode.
The finale we saw was a good episode, there just wasn't enough time to finish the story, if they had finished the story it would have been a much better episode.
Compared to season 2's finale this one was awful.

Grimebox · 04-04-2013 07:17PM

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

Nervous Wreck · 04-04-2013 07:51PM

Grimebox wrote: »

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

I'd prefer to have a conclusion, yeah.... We didn't get either though...

Syferus · 04-04-2013 08:14PM

Grimebox wrote: »

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

Setting the table for a new season hardly means the ending needs to be a cliffhanger.

Season 3 Episode 16 - Welcome to the Tombs (SPOILERS)

Comments