Water fluoridation should be scrapped!

Jester252 · 22-03-2013 02:10PM

Do you mean this?

Capt'n Midnight · 22-03-2013 02:57PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Do you mean this?

No

I mean the original which has links back to the DM articles.

http://www.facebook.com/TheDailyMailListOfThingsThatGiveYouCancer/info

Just go down through the list slowly, and remember that most (if not all) of those scares have more hard evidence to support them than the anti-flouride campaign.

Jester252 · 22-03-2013 03:48PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

No

I mean the original which has links back to the DM articles.

http://www.facebook.com/TheDailyMailListOfThingsThatGiveYouCancer/info

Just go down through the list slowly, and remember that most (if not all) of those scares have more hard evidence to support them than the anti-flouride campaign.

I should be dead my now if that the case

Starfox · 22-03-2013 04:02PM

Tune in to Last Word on Today FM today at 5:10pm where Aisling (The Girl Against Fluoride) will be chatting with Matt Cooper and debating with Dr Joe Mullins of the Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health.

If you do not have access to a radio, you can catch the show online at www.todayfm.com

22-03-2013 06:41PM

Starfox wrote: »

Tune in to Last Word on Today FM today at 5:10pm where Aisling (The Girl Against Fluoride) will be chatting with Matt Cooper and debating with Dr Joe Mullins of the Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health.

If you do not have access to a radio, you can catch the show online at www.todayfm.com

That was pretty poor from both sides.

She mentioned the mullinex? Paper in which a rat is given water with 100ppm if she thinks that is comparable to an adult getting 1ppm water she is either deluded or willfully misleading people

Yawnz · 29-03-2013 05:38PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What can a youtube video say in 14:35 that will change the lack of hard evidence ?

Dr. Strangelove was released in 1964. Part of the plot is a crazy general trying to start WWIII because of fluoridation.

This means that some people were making lots of noise about fluoridation 50 years ago and that most people knew about it.

In the meantime epidemiology and health & safety have taken leaps and bounds. If there were a statistically observable health problem it would have been found by now.

Let's play the Devils Advocate for a moment,
suppose we ban fluoride on the preventative principle ?

then we'd have to ban things that are more dangerous too
stuff like stairs, kitchens, planes, trains and automobiles, alcohol, tobacco , smoked meat and toast, sunbathing, swimming ,trawlers, mining and about a quarter of the stuff on the Daily Mail's cancer list

There has been toxicological data to show that fluoride is harmful. But I think it might be prudent to point out here that fluoride is added to our public water supplies without informed consent. If I smoke a cigarette, I know the risks that are involved with it and I guess it is my choice to smoke. But those out there who do not want to ingest fluoride simply have that right taken from them. I read an interesting comment by the Germans on this - "The consumer cannot avoid fluoridated water made available by public water supply. This mandatory intake of fluoride violates the basic right to bodily freedom from injury...provided by the Basic Laws of The Federal Republic of Germany"

I guess it is easy to perpetually argue the science of fluoridation, but it is harder to deny that people's right to informed consent has been denied.

Dave! · 29-03-2013 05:56PM

Yawnz wrote: »

There has been toxicological data to show that fluoride is harmful. But I think it might be prudent to point out here that fluoride is added to our public water supplies without informed consent. If I smoke a cigarette, I know the risks that are involved with it and I guess it is my choice to smoke. But those out there who do not want to ingest fluoride simply have that right taken from them. I read an interesting comment by the Germans on this - "The consumer cannot avoid fluoridated water made available by public water supply. This mandatory intake of fluoride violates the basic right to bodily freedom from injury...provided by the Basic Laws of The Federal Republic of Germany"

I guess it is easy to perpetually argue the science of fluoridation, but it is harder to deny that people's right to informed consent has been denied.

It is, which is why it boggles my mind that anti-fluoride proponents keep pushing the health risk angle, as you just tried again in your first line. Of course flouride is toxic. Just not at the level present in drinking water.

Fromthetrees · 29-03-2013 06:06PM

British troops. Out of Ireland!

Fluoridated water. Out of Ireland! :mad:

Yawnz · 29-03-2013 08:53PM

Dave! wrote: »

It is, which is why it boggles my mind that anti-fluoride proponents keep pushing the health risk angle, as you just tried again in your first line. Of course flouride is toxic. Just not at the level present in drinking water.

I know, I guess I always go down that route myself even without realising it. The science that I have read is what made up my mind on this very issue, so I guess it naturally features in my argument. I understand the argument that you make, that at the levels of 0.6ppm-0.8ppm it may not have an adverse affect if you're only ever drinking water, but I think that it is very important to bear in mind that we're not just ingesting fluoride in our water. Everyday we may swallow a portion of fluoridated toothpaste. The Irish are one of the worlds largest tea drinkers - tea has high levels of naturally occurring fluoride. Products made with fluoridated water will also contain fluoride - for example Guinness that is produced in ROI (this was confirmed by Diageo), Dubliner cheese was tested and contains 29ppm fluoride. I guess the list is almost never ending. Another thing that is important to bear in mind I guess is that fluoride is bio-accumulative.

Gordon Gecko · 29-03-2013 09:20PM

As a dental student I can say that it is absolute BOLLOCKS. Fluoride presents no danger to human health in doses less than 1ppm in water.

opinion guy · 29-03-2013 11:14PM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

As a dental student I can say that it is absolute BOLLOCKS. Fluoride presents no danger to human health in doses less than 1ppm in water.

Tell me, as a dental student, how many hours of toxicology do you study ?

Gordon Gecko · 29-03-2013 11:23PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Tell me, as a dental student, how many hours of toxicology do you study ?

I've spent more hours reading scientific, i.e. stuff you don't read, literature and studies on fluoride and its effects than you ever will so I think I'll take a pass on your toxicology preaching. Show me long term clinical trials which prove the dangers of water fluoridation to health? Crank.

opinion guy · 29-03-2013 11:32PM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

I've spent more hours reading scientific, i.e. stuff you don't read, literature and studies on fluoride and its effects than you ever will so I think I'll take a pass on your toxicology preaching. Show me long term clinical trials which prove the dangers of water fluoridation to health? Crank.

Hold up buddy - I didn't give offer you a viewpoint.

You made a claim to authority - I asked you to quantify that authority. If you are going to argue by authority you should expect to be asked to justfiy that authority. Don't assume to know what I do or do not read.

Now would you mind answering the question you were asked instead of strawmanning

Magnetics · 29-03-2013 11:37PM

I think that if there is even a one in a million chance that fluoride poses any sort of health risk to humans at all, it should be scrapped altogether

Dental hygiene has come a long long way since fluoride was introduced to Irish water supplies, it is no longer necessary to leave a chemical like it in what is the most basic requirement for life

We already get plenty of it in our toothpaste and mouth washes, we don't need any more and for that reason it should be scrapped

Gordon Gecko · 29-03-2013 11:49PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Hold up buddy - I didn't give offer you a viewpoint.

You made a claim to authority - I asked you to quantify that authority. If you are going to argue by authority you should expect to be asked to justfiy that authority. Don't assume to know what I do or do not read.

Now would you mind answering the question you were asked instead of strawmanning

1) I'm not your buddy, I don't make friends with cranks

2) I have read extensively on scientific literature pertaining to water fluoridation, of which toxicology is an intrinsic part. I would say that in the last 4 years I've spent easily upwards of 50 hours reading scientific literature on water fluoridation (which doesn't include the time I've spent sitting in lectures listening to competent and qualified authorities discussing it.)

3) Can you answer my question now crank. Where are your long term clinical studies which prove water fluoridation is a danger to human health?

Gordon Gecko · 29-03-2013 11:51PM

Magnetics wrote: »

I think that if there is even a one in a million chance that fluoride poses any sort of health risk to humans at all, it should be scrapped altogether

Dental hygiene has come a long long way since fluoride was introduced to Irish water supplies, it is no longer necessary to leave a chemical like it in what is the most basic requirement for life

We already get plenty of it in our toothpaste and mouth washes, we don't need any more and for that reason it should be scrapped

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/fluoridation_forum.html

Read that and cure your own ignorance

opinion guy · 29-03-2013 11:55PM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

1) I'm not your buddy, I don't make friends with cranks

2) I have read extensively on scientific literature pertaining to water fluoridation, of which toxicology is an intrinsic part. I would say that in the last 4 years I've spent easily upwards of 50 hours reading scientific literature on water fluoridation (which doesn't include the time I've spent sitting in lectures listening to competent and qualified authorities discussing it.)

3) Can you answer my question now crank. Where are your long term clinical studies which prove water fluoridation is a danger to human health?

I didn't say fluoride is a danger. If you must know I'm on the fence on the issue.

I did ask you how much toxicology you studied - as in how much is on the dental student curriculum. I genuinely want to know. Now for some reason you've decided I'm a crank and are jumping down my throat. I only asked you a simple question. Because I'm interested to know. Thats all.

Seaneh · 29-03-2013 11:58PM

Harvard Medical School Professor, Dan Merfeld PhD, wrote the following:

“While I keep an open mind regarding the latest research, at least three facts are indisputable.

“1) Fluoridation provides an uncontrolled fluoride dose.

“2) Fluoridation began before research showed that fluoride’s benefits were due to topical application not ingestion.

“3) Fluoridation began before all its side effects were known.”

Add this to the fact that fluoride is an endocrine-inhibitor which blocks the thyroid from absorbing iodine, which it needs to produce thyroid hormone, which is essential to every cell in your body and thus essential for proper function of every part of your body, and potentially causes or compounds problems like Hashimoto's disease and Graves' disease and other forms of hypo-thyroidism in thousands and thousands of people, most of whom are most likely undiagnosed. For those reasons, fluoridation of public drinking water should not continue.

Magnetics · 30-03-2013 12:04AM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/fluoridation_forum.html

Read that and cure your own ignorance

I will do just that

Maybe you should read up on this aswel, we can both learn together

Gordon Gecko · 30-03-2013 12:06AM

opinion guy wrote: »

I didn't say fluoride is a danger. If you must know I'm on the fence on the issue.

I did ask you how much toxicology you studied - as in how much is on the dental student curriculum. I genuinely want to know. Now for some reason you've decided I'm a crank and are jumping down my throat. I only asked you a simple question. Because I'm interested to know. Thats all.

As a dental student I am required to know the potential for chronic and acute toxicity of all dental related chemicals (i.e. components of toothpaste, of which fluoride is one), any antibiotics or painkillers I will prescribe and a host of other common medications which my patient may be taking (e.g. antihypertensives, warfarin etc.). This is studied as we are introduced to each chemical and class of chemicals and reinforced as part of a year long pharmacology course.

Gordon Gecko · 30-03-2013 12:07AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Harvard Medical School Professor, Dan Merfeld PhD, wrote the following:

Add this to the fact that fluoride is an endocrine-inhibitor which blocks the thyroid from absorbing iodine, which it needs to produce thyroid hormone, which is essential to every cell in your body and thus essential for proper function of every part of your body, and potentially causes or compounds problems like Hashimoto's disease and Graves' disease and other forms of hypo-thyroidism in thousands and thousands of people, most of whom are most likely undiagnosed. For those reasons, fluoridation of public drinking water should not continue.

Evidence?

Trhiggy83 · 30-03-2013 12:23AM

I find it hard to believe nearly half the posters who voted in the poll reckon that fluoridation shouldnt be scrapped. Have i missed something here

Seaneh · 30-03-2013 12:23AM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Evidence?

Well ok.

Fluoride is, without any doubt in the scientific of medical communities, a endocrine disruptor[1].

In fact, it was used until the 50's in Europe to treat Hyperthyroidism because it's such an effective iodine blocker.[2]

Your thyroid gland made of the most sensitive tissue in your body to fluoride with more fluoride accumulating in your thyroid than many other soft tissues [3]

Fluoride exposure in humans is associated with elevated TSH concentrations, increased goiter prevalence, and altered T4 and T3 concentrations" with "similar effects on T4 and T3…reported in experimental animals[1]

Altered thyroid function is associated with fluoride intakes as low as 0.05-0.1 mg fluoride per kilogram body weight per day (mg/kg/day), or 0.03 mg/kg/day with iodine deficiency. Increased prevalence of goiter (>20 percent) is associated with fluoride intakes of 0.07-0.13 mg/kg/day, or 0.01 mg/kg/day with iodine deficiency[1]

[1] National Research Council. 2006. Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards. National Academies Press: Washington, DC.

[2] Maumené E. 1854. Compt Rend Acad Sci 39:538. & May W. 1935. Antagonismus Zwischen Jod und Fluor im Organismus. Klinische Wochenschrift 14:790-92.

[3] Shashi A. 1988. Biochemical effects of Fluoride on thyroid gland duringexperimental fluorosis. Fluoride 21:127–130. & Monsour PA, Kruger BJ. 1985. Effect of fluoride on soft tissue in vertebrates. Fluoride 18:53-61. / Call RA, Greenwood DA, LeCheminant H, et al. 1965. Histological and chemical studies in man on effects of fluoride. Pub Health Reports 80(6):529-38.

And that is citing just 6 of hundreds of studies which back what I've said up.

And you can read this, if you want, as well.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11571&page=224

opinion guy · 30-03-2013 12:30AM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

As a dental student I am required to know the potential for chronic and acute toxicity of all dental related chemicals (i.e. components of toothpaste, of which fluoride is one), any antibiotics or painkillers I will prescribe and a host of other common medications which my patient may be taking (e.g. antihypertensives, warfarin etc.). This is studied as we are introduced to each chemical and class of chemicals and reinforced as part of a year long pharmacology course.

Ok gotcha.
So how many hours are specifically dedicated to toxicology and its principles then ? Again - I just want to know

Seaneh · 30-03-2013 12:30AM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

As a dental student I am required to know the potential for chronic and acute toxicity of all dental related chemicals (i.e. components of toothpaste, of which fluoride is one), any antibiotics or painkillers I will prescribe and a host of other common medications which my patient may be taking (e.g. antihypertensives, warfarin etc.). This is studied as we are introduced to each chemical and class of chemicals and reinforced as part of a year long pharmacology course.

You're talking poop.

You're a dental student, but your knowledge of the toxicology effects of fluoride on the body are and always will be limited to what you are told in your coursework. You don't research it in any depth, you don't even really have to understand it in any depth, you're just told about interactions and potential allergies and complications and how to avoid and circumnavigate them

I assume you are also told that people will present to you who have various thyroid and other endocrine diseases and disorders who will be advised, by their endocrinologists, to avoid fluoride intake and those people will ask for non-fluoridated products to be used in their treatments? Have you never wondered why an endocrinologist would tell their patients to avoid fluoride?

Yawnz · 30-03-2013 12:56AM

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

As a dental student I am required to know the potential for chronic and acute toxicity of all dental related chemicals (i.e. components of toothpaste, of which fluoride is one), any antibiotics or painkillers I will prescribe and a host of other common medications which my patient may be taking (e.g. antihypertensives, warfarin etc.). This is studied as we are introduced to each chemical and class of chemicals and reinforced as part of a year long pharmacology course.

Dr. Arvid Carlsson, Pharmacologist and Nobel laureate, said the notion of using the water supply as a vehicle of delivering medication goes against all modern principles of pharmacology. This is in reference to fluoridated water.

blatantrereg · 30-03-2013 01:00AM

http://www.epa.ie/downloads/pubs/water/drinking/Drinking%20Water_web.pdf

Naturally elevated levels of fluoride are quite rare in Ireland and thus any exceedances reported are
almost entirely due to public water supplies being dosed with fluoride at levels in excess of the legally
permitted dose. There has been an improvement on the previous year for the number of public water
supplies, 31 in 2011, down from 51 in 2010 failing to meet the fluoride parametric value. The number
of public group water schemes failing to meet the fluoride parametric value also improved, 3 in 2011,
down from 11 in 2010. There was no fluoride exceedances reported for private group water schemes
and small private supplies in 2011. It is important to note that the Irish standard of 0.8 mg/l is more
stringent than the EU Drinking Water Directive Standard of 1.5 mg/l. One public water supply
exceeded the 1.5 mg/l standard in 2011.

>25% of Irish water supplies needed remedial action in Q4 2010. Around 15% in 2012 Q4. It might be supposed that they don't underreport issues with the water supply then I guess:

http://www.epa.ie/downloads/pubs/water/drinking/Q4%202012%20RAL.pdf

http://www.epa.ie/downloads/pubs/water/drinking/Q4%202010%20RAL.pdf

Legal limits for mineral water are greater than 6 times the legal limits of tap water in Ireland. There is a second lesser limit above which the fluoride level must be labelled, though I seem to have lost the page I found that on...

I disagree with water fluoridation. It's mass medication. It should be up to the individual whether they want to consume it or not. Personally I would rather not, as the risks and negative effects outweigh the benefits easily in my mind.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-03-2013 01:37AM

Yawnz wrote: »

There has been toxicological data to show that fluoride is harmful.

Evidence has accumulated implicating that atmospheric oxygen can be considered as an important environmental mutagen,

Large amounts of fluoride are harmful to your health.

But since it mottles your teeth at levels well below any toxic levels it's easy to avoid. And our max levels are about a tenth of the mottling level. And even at the levels where your teeth are visibly affected the evidence of any harm is unclear.

To get to levels where harm is statistically significant you need to up the concentration even more and keep drinking despite the physical warnings.

Large amounts of most fat soluble vitamins are harmful to your health.

I guess it is easy to perpetually argue the science of fluoridation, but it is harder to deny that people's right to informed consent has been denied.

We have a political system. Laws are passed in public. Without the public consent it would be a dictatorship.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1960/en/act/pub/0046/print.html

Capt'n Midnight · 30-03-2013 01:39AM

Yawnz wrote: »

Another thing that is important to bear in mind I guess is that fluoride is bio-accumulative.

when you say accumulative do you mean the soluble forms or the inert insoluble Calcium Fluoride ?

Yawnz · 30-03-2013 01:50AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Evidence has accumulated implicating that atmospheric oxygen can be considered as an important environmental mutagen,

Large amounts of fluoride are harmful to your health.

But since it mottles your teeth at levels well below any toxic levels it's easy to avoid. And our max levels are about a tenth of the mottling level. And even at the levels where your teeth are visibly affected the evidence of any harm is unclear.

To get to levels where harm is statistically significant you need to up the concentration even more and keep drinking despite the physical warnings.

Large amounts of most fat soluble vitamins are harmful to your health.

We have a political system. Laws are passed in public. Without the public consent it would be a dictatorship.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1960/en/act/pub/0046/print.html

That's a little off topic I must say, I'm referring to hydrofluorosilicic acid in our water not oxygen or vitamins. Sorry, I'm not in the least qualified to discuss the science here, however, this Act of 1960 was introduced without the consent of the people. It is also unethical to medicate an entire population in the way one doctor cannot medicate one patient.

Water fluoridation should be scrapped!

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