Oil Boiler gone thinking off gas

patmac · 28-03-2013 01:06PM #1

Hi folks, our oil boiler is on its last legs and we have to replace it. We have under floor heating and we have been offered a deal with Calor to replace the oil with a gas boiler, tank etc. We are out in the country so no natural gas.
According to the Calor rep gas will become cheaper in the future. They are offering a free tank of gas to sign up worth approximately €800 but we will have to dig a channel and they install the tank, boiler etc, the whole cost will be about €3000.
The down side is they charge €147 per year servicing (which we would need to spend on the oil boiler as well).
Our house is 1365 square feet (127m2) bungalow. We are also considering an oil condensing boiler. Has anyone any other alternatives, or which would be the best oil or gas?

28-03-2013 02:27PM

patmac wrote: »

Hi folks, our oil boiler is on its last legs and we have to replace it. We have under floor heating and we have been offered a deal with Calor to replace the oil with a gas boiler, tank etc. We are out in the country so no natural gas.
According to the Calor rep gas will become cheaper in the future. They are offering a free tank of gas to sign up worth approximately €800 but we will have to dig a channel and they install the tank, boiler etc, the whole cost will be about €3000.
The down side is they charge €147 per year servicing (which we would need to spend on the oil boiler as well).
Our house is 1365 square feet (127m2) bungalow. We are also considering an oil condensing boiler. Has anyone any other alternatives, or which would be the best oil or gas?

Unless he has a Christal ball I would say he's telling porkys.

LPG boilers has it over oil boilers at the moment due to the technology built in to the gas boilers. the technology is designed to maximise efficiency also the modulating gas flame allows boiler to match precisely the heat required unlike the brutish flame on a oil boiler that doesn't modulate(at the moment). Some gas boilers can tell the difference between heating your hot water or your underfloor and react in the most efficient way.

Oil boilers are like the big fella at the bar that nobody wants to bump into and gas boilers would be like the fella on the dance floor who has far to much rhythm than he should have to still be drinking pints.

Billy Bunting · 28-03-2013 02:27PM

patmac wrote: »

Hi folks, our oil boiler is on its last legs and we have to replace it.

Says who and why ???

Do you have a picture of the boiler installation ?

Wearb · 28-03-2013 02:40PM

Lpg is more expensive than a HE oil boiler per kilowatt of usable energy over a heating season. Natural gas is cheaper

Pete67 · 28-03-2013 02:51PM

With oil you can at least shop around the various suppliers for best pricing, with LPG you are pretty much tied into one supplier for refills as they own the tank. Just something to think about.

patmac · 28-03-2013 03:00PM

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Says who and why ???

Do you have a picture of the boiler installation ?

I have had two consultations from plumbers and both say the boiler is gone.

patmac · 28-03-2013 03:04PM

Wearb wrote: »

Lpg is more expensive than a HE oil boiler per kilowatt of usable energy over a heating season. Natural gas is cheaper

Would this apply to under floor heating?

Wearb · 28-03-2013 03:25PM

patmac wrote: »

Would this apply to under floor heating?

I think that it would still hold, assuming of course a proper plumbing installation with heat store and controls.

28-03-2013 03:33PM

Wearb wrote: »

Lpg is more expensive than a HE oil boiler per kilowatt of usable energy over a heating season. Natural gas is cheaper

If they were like for like you'd have a point but they're not, LPG gas boilers use less fuel when fitted correctly than a oil boilers fitted the same way HE or not especially with underfloor, how well does a oil boiler cope with underfloor compared to a gas boiler that can modulate down to a few KW.

Wearb · 28-03-2013 05:08PM

I still think that with best practice installations in both cases, oil is a better option than LPG.
See:
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/Domestic_Fuel_Cost_Comparison_January_2013_pdf.pdf

I am open to contradiction on all of this, but with 8.81 versus 13.49 cost per delivered Kw, lpg has a lot of ground to make up to compete with oil.

28-03-2013 05:36PM

Wearb wrote: »

I still think that with best practice installations in both cases, oil is a better option than LPG.
See:
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/Domestic_Fuel_Cost_Comparison_January_2013_pdf.pdf

I am open to contradiction on all of this, but with 8.81 versus 13.49 cost per delivered Kw, lpg has a lot of ground to make up to compete with oil.

Domestic gas boilers are classed as low water content boilers allowing for the heat to be absorbed quicker by a heating system, they have intelligent controls improving efficiency that are not matched by oil boilers, they can modulate so fuel is not wasted.

There are a lot of oil installations where just by removing the boilers alone then fitting a gas boiler will save money, the gas boiler will run more efficient just by using the gizmo gadgets within the boiler, the same can't be said for a oil boiler which is just a heat sourse on/off and is reliant on the installer for it's efficient use.

Due to the technology of gas boilers and there gizmo gadgets they are now a viable choice which I wouldn't of said a few years ago, I have a unvented cylinder and oil boiler in my garage, if I fitted a LPG combi boiler in my house with a outdoor sensor I would have less fuel bills.

I am a gasman which is going to impact on my opinion:o

Wearb · 28-03-2013 05:50PM

Not sure I follow your reasoning Gary, but then again you are a gas man:) and I am not.

Anyway Patmac, there is food for thought above.

shane0007 · 28-03-2013 05:54PM

Wearb wrote: »

I still think that with best practice installations in both cases, oil is a better option than LPG.
See:
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/Domestic_Fuel_Cost_Comparison_January_2013_pdf.pdf

I am open to contradiction on all of this, but with 8.81 versus 13.49 cost per delivered Kw, lpg has a lot of ground to make up to compete with oil.

SEAI figures are nonsense. Bulk LPG is 65 cent per litre delivered cost including levies & vat!

Wearb · 28-03-2013 06:14PM

shane0007 wrote: »

SEAI figures are nonsense. Bulk LPG is 65 cent per litre delivered cost including levies & vat!

Ok Shane. 96c per litre LPG quoted on SEAI, 90c for kerosene which is correct. Someone asleep there.

Note it also quotes 7.09 Kw per unit LPG as opposed to 10.18 Kw for kerosene and 10.55 for diesel. So almost 1.5 litres of lpg needed to get the same calorific value as kerosene. Therefore lpg at 65c per litre and the built in controls and modulating of the gas burner may compete competitively with Kerosene.
Does .65 per litre include the standing charge for gas tank?

28-03-2013 06:15PM

If you have run if the mill install with under floor and a cylinder, if you have a oil boiler you have to set the boiler up taking in to account the higher Temperture of the hot water cylinder wasting heat around the circuit feeding the underfloor manifold. If you fit a outdoor sensor you then have to worry about under heating the cylinder.

If you fit a gas boiler it will constantly monitor its self and adjust the pump and fan speed for optimum efficiency and zone size, you can fit a outdoor sensor that only impacts on the heating circuit and also run the heating circuit at much lower temperatures i.e. 42oC then ramp up to much higher temperatures only when the cylinder requires heating, gas boilers are extremely self aware and are programmed by the fellas in white coats to stay in condense mode for as long as possible rather than race to the temperture set on the boiler stat.

belcampprisoner · 28-03-2013 06:21PM

plumbers are not the best to check out boilers

get a boiler guy in

it would be cheaper to go with oil,just buy new furnace

http://www.motherearthnews.com/do-it-yourself/oil-furnace-repair-zmaz86jfzglo.aspx#axzz2Or8WNMGf

Wearb · 28-03-2013 06:23PM

Gary, I am boxing a bit above my weight here, but with top notch installation in both cases, do you not think that oil is close or better than LPG price wise?

28-03-2013 06:43PM

Wearb wrote: »

Gary, I am boxing a bit above my weight here, but with top notch installation in both cases, do you not think that oil is close or better than LPG price wise?

I think it depends on the installation and the skill of the installer, but my main points are gas boilers are better than oil boilers for controllability and self awareness which has to be factored in when looking at fuel usage.

Shane and other installers will have a more educated opinion than mine because they swing both ways.

As mentioned I have a oil boiler in the garage 15 foot from my house, fitting a compact gas combi boiler would save me money that I couldn't match with oil as easy.

RoverZT · 28-03-2013 06:50PM

What about a solid fuel boiler?

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/heating/2068697

Very popular in colder parts of Europe and suppose to be very economical.

patmac · 28-03-2013 09:01PM

RoverZT wrote: »

What about a solid fuel boiler?

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/heating/2068697

Very popular in colder parts of Europe and suppose to be very economical.

Looks interesting, would like to know more about it. We are not home during the day so not sure if practical for us. We are moving away from gas as I am not too happy about just two companies providing gas.
Might go with the condensing oil boiler. Still none the wiser though.

28-03-2013 09:15PM

patmac wrote: »

Looks interesting, would like to know more about it. We are not home during the day so not sure if practical for us. We are moving away from gas as I am not too happy about just two companies providing gas.
Might go with the condensing oil boiler. Still none the wiser though.

I think the best systems are the simplest ones with decent controls.

The only problem you have is your underfloor requires lower flow tempertures than your cylinder, if your boiler is feeding only your underfloor the boiler can short cycle but there are ways round that, your better off finding a good installer first then figuring out what's best for your individual heating requirements, Gary.

shane0007 · 28-03-2013 09:49PM

Wearb wrote: »

Gary, I am boxing a bit above my weight here, but with top notch installation in both cases, do you not think that oil is close or better than LPG price wise?

I am 50/50 gas & oil. You have to convert all fuel types to cost per kwh to accurately compare their cost. There are two kwh costs to look at. Delivered to the boiler & delivered from the boiler to the heating system.
I am talking delivered cost to the boiler so it will include vat, levies, etc. So we can all agree that Nat Gas is the cheapest delivered to the boiler @ circa 7.0 cent per kwh. Kerosene is circa 9.5 cent per kwh & LPG is circa 9.3 cent per kwh. So lets call LPG & kerosene the same cost.
Then from the boiler to the heating system so where it gets interesting. Standard efficiency boilers will be no advantage. Generally on/off going off on flow temperature & short cycling to their hearts content.
HE oil will make better use of the fuel being burnt, increase the system efficiency slightly by pre-heating the secondary exchanger via the return. Whilst it is in condensing mode, this equates to circa savings if max 15%. Once the return temp increase and the system heats up, the boiler comes out of condensing mode & realistic saving becomes circa 5% over a SE boiler. The short cycling becomes much more evident.
On the other hand, the gas boiler, both Nat Gas & LPG, modulates down in relation to the return temp and turns the output down as necessary. This turns down the gas flame & therefore the fuel consumption. A 20kw boiler will give 20kw from cold but as the system heats up the output can drop to as low as 7kw. It can also thus give & maintain a significantly better curve to the required & then flatline the demand, this only using precisely the required amount needed for that particular demand.

Finally, more & more houses are zoned. You could have a 35kw boiler heating water only that has a 3kw coil. Or a downstairs zone requiring 12kw but getting the boiler output of 35kw.

Wearb · 29-03-2013 01:57AM

Thank you for that well informed explanation Shane. I accept most of what you say, but you are leaning more towards gas by some omissions. 1. the amount of time that your are going to be heating a 3kw coil is going to be more or less insignificant. 2. Thermal heat stores reduce the short cycling time. ( I know those 2 points are relevant to system design but need to be mentioned when defending oil) And finally, while I can verify the price of kerosene per litre online, I cannot do the same for LPG. Can you tell me the price 2000 litres of LPG is going to cost the customer per annum including everything and after all special offers have lapsed?

I am not asking these questions to just try and prove a point. I have been ( I thought correctly) advising people that HE oil was cheaper that LPG and if I am not correct, I don't want to mislead people.

shane0007 · 29-03-2013 02:14AM

Wearb wrote: »

Thank you for that well informed explanation Shane. I accept most of what you say, but you are leaning more towards gas by some omissions. 1. the amount of time that your are going to be heating a 3kw coil is going to be more or less insignificant. 2. Thermal heat stores reduce the short cycling time. ( I know those 2 points are relevant to system design but need to be mentioned when defending oil) And finally, while I can verify the price of kerosene per litre online, I cannot do the same for LPG. Can you tell me the price 2000 litres of LPG is going to cost the customer per annum including everything and after all special offers have lapsed?

I am not asking these questions to just try and prove a point. I have been ( I thought correctly) advising people that HE oil was cheaper that LPG and if I am not correct, I don't want to mislead people.

1. Heating DHW will be for approx 30% of the time so it is significant.
2. Yes, buffer tanks allow oil boilers to become more compatible. You can modulate from the buffer instead. You must also allow then for additional space & additional cost which will have to be factored into the equation. You will also have to have more controls that when there is a call for heat from the buffer & it cannot be satisfied by the buffer, the boiler will then be called in. The buffer should also be bypassed for DHW in summer so that a 500L buffer is not heated in order to heat a 200 litre cylinder, etc.
3. I am sure on Calor's website they quote 75 cent. Their reps will negotiate 65 cent.
Tank rental is €140 but this can be for down to €100. It is not a standing charge but a maintenance contract. The tank is maintained & replaced as required along with all safety features. In oil, the maintenance of all storage is the responsibility of the homeowner, which is not free.

patmac · 29-03-2013 11:53AM

shane0007 wrote: »

3. I am sure on Calor's website they quote 75 cent. Their reps will negotiate 65 cent.
Tank rental is €140 but this can be for down to €100. It is not a standing charge but a maintenance contract. The tank is maintained & replaced as required along with all safety features. In oil, the maintenance of all storage is the responsibility of the homeowner, which is not free.

The big down side for LPG is being tied to either Calor or Flogas. If we have their tank and after the initial introductory offer of €800's worth of gas has been used, when I go to refill the tank and they say the cost is for example €0.75 per litre will I be able to negotiate? I doubt that I will be in a position to say I will give you €0.65 per litre as they will have me by the short and curlies so to speak.
The house is set up for oil as it would mean replacing the current boiler with a condensing one. But then the cost of oil. Still confused

29-03-2013 12:39PM

There is nothing wrong with oil.

The question is what system design would be the most efficient for your individual needs against the cost and complexity of installation.

Both fuels have their pros and cons, it's the installation and your requirements that should dictate which type of installation is best, for example underfloor is more suited to gas due to the ease of retro fitting, advanced controls and modulating flame but that's not to say oil wouldn't work well either, you would have to deal with the short cycling which required more space.

Either systems with the correct controls fitted well will give you savings I'm sure you'd be happy with.

Lets not forget you could also fit a heat pump and have your hot water heated by a cylinder incorporating its own heat pump and do away with gas or oil altogether:eek:

Wearb · 29-03-2013 07:41PM

shane0007 wrote: »

1. Heating DHW will be for approx 30% of the time so it is significant.
2. Yes, buffer tanks allow oil boilers to become more compatible. You can modulate from the buffer instead. You must also allow then for additional space & additional cost which will have to be factored into the equation. You will also have to have more controls that when there is a call for heat from the buffer & it cannot be satisfied by the buffer, the boiler will then be called in. The buffer should also be bypassed for DHW in summer so that a 500L buffer is not heated in order to heat a 200 litre cylinder, etc.
3. I am sure on Calor's website they quote 75 cent. Their reps will negotiate 65 cent.
Tank rental is €140 but this can be for down to €100. It is not a standing charge but a maintenance contract. The tank is maintained & replaced as required along with all safety features. In oil, the maintenance of all storage is the responsibility of the homeowner, which is not free.

I accept point no2 totally.

As for point no 1, Hot water will be heated a lot of the time in conjunction with CH, so in that case you will not be only running the DHW. Perhaps in the summer other sources like solar (which is almost ubiquitous now on new builds) or an immersion would be more efficient.

Point 3 I cannot find those LPG prices anywhere. They seem to deliberately complicate pricing to make it impossible to make informed comparisons. Oil tank maintanance is minimal, once installed properly. And no non-competitive contracts.

Happy Easter and I hope you have no emergency call-outs to disrupt your long weekend.

Wearb · 29-03-2013 07:48PM

gary71 wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with oil.

The question is what system design would be the most efficient for your individual needs against the cost and complexity of installation.

Both fuels have their pros and cons, it's the installation and your requirements that should dictate which type of installation is best, for example underfloor is more suited to gas due to the ease of retro fitting, advanced controls and modulating flame but that's not to say oil wouldn't work well either, you would have to deal with the short cycling which required more space.

Either systems with the correct controls fitted well will give you savings I'm sure you'd be happy with.

Lets not forget you could also fit a heat pump and have your hot water heated by a cylinder incorporating its own heat pump and do away with gas or oil altogether:eek:[/QUOTE

Can't disagree with any of that Gary. Happy Easter

Wearb · 29-03-2013 07:57PM

patmac wrote: »

The big down side for LPG is being tied to either Calor or Flogas. If we have their tank and after the initial introductory offer of €800's worth of gas has been used, when I go to refill the tank and they say the cost is for example €0.75 per litre will I be able to negotiate? I doubt that I will be in a position to say I will give you €0.65 per litre as they will have me by the short and curlies so to speak.
The house is set up for oil as it would mean replacing the current boiler with a condensing one. But then the cost of oil. Still confused

It has been fairly well thrashed out here, but I don't wonder you being still confused.
Write down exactly what you want from your system, especially the amount of control you want over it. Then get a few quotes for gas and oil that will give you that control. Ask the people quoting about the potential running costs, and then make your decision.
Try and find someone locally with gas and ask them how they find it.

Happy Easter

shane0007 · 29-03-2013 09:21PM

patmac wrote: »

when I go to refill the tank and they say the cost is for example €0.75 per litre will I be able to negotiate? I doubt that I will be in a position to say I will give you €0.65 per litre as they will have me by the short and curlies so to speak.

Is that not what your contract is for?
You would need to discuss that issue with your rep. I am an installer & not a sales person, so I can only advice on systems.

shane0007 · 29-03-2013 09:48PM

Wearb wrote: »

As for point no 1, Hot water will be heated a lot of the time in conjunction with CH, so in that case you will not be only running the DHW. Perhaps in the summer other sources like solar (which is almost ubiquitous now on new builds) or an immersion would be more efficient.

You cannot compare in that way as system parameters will vary from system to system. A 200 litre cylinder will take much longer to heat if it is on with the heating rather than on its own.
Secondly, as systems are becoming zoned, hot water is being heated during "normal weather" on its own from March/April to October. 30 mins morning/30 mins evening would be typical for a family of 4 household. This is where you will find that a considerable amount of the annual usage will bump up the percentages to accurate figures.

Wearb wrote: »

Point 3 Oil tank maintanance is minimal, once installed properly. And no non-competitive contracts.

Installations cost is very high for oil. If the tank is installed to regs, 9/10 times it should be bunded. Proper installation costs will be €1,500 - €2,000 this to meet regs. Seems high but €1,000 for tank, plus concrete base, blocks, oil line, filters, remote acting fire valve, labour, etc. 10 - 15 year lifespan gives €150 - €200 per year cost if no maintenance. To have gas tank maintained for €100 per year is not bad and all safety devices included.

I agree with advantage of buying oil from whomever you like, however, there is not that much cost difference from one oil supplier to another. You can also switch gas supplier after contract term and this can be waived in front of the supplier if the play silly buggers. At the end of the day, they do not want to lose customers either. LPG is only fossil fuel that decreased over the past few years.

I am on oil myself, but I am seriously considering the changeover. If I could be on Nat Gas, I would switch in the morning, but I'm not, so.... It's either LPG or buffer tank. My mind changes every other week!

Oil Boiler gone thinking off gas

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