Why is coding still not taught in Irish primary schools?

28-03-2013 12:06AM

Dwork wrote: »

Before we hop kids into Coding, any hope our primary schools might all teach them to actually read and write properly first? That might be some way realistic. We can then move on to more ambitious stuff.

That's the parents' job as far as I'm concerned.

Grayson · 28-03-2013 12:07AM

Aineoil wrote: »

As a primary school teacher, I am all for coding, but the amount of children who have basic literacy needs is amazing. If you put literacy as a priority then maths as a second priority - these are not my terms - this is how the Department of Education and Science see things. As far as the Inspectorate are concerned oral language (the lack of it) is a real issue.

If you want coding (I agree) you would have to introduce it into the training colleges firstly. Slow and steady seems the way forward. Having said this the degree of variation of ability in a class is mind boggling.

26 years teaching by the way. I still have no answers only questions.

I was going to say that. Half the primary school teachers in Ireland are probably over 45 and IT illiterate (not saying that they're idiots. Just that they've never needed to). The rest probably have wildly varying degrees of competency.

AT least at secondary school you can get in one teacher who can teach a class. But in primary school you'd have to bring in someone and rotate them around the school. far too complicated. Best to teach basic IT literacy in primary schools. If it's rolled out slowly teachers could up-skill during the holidays. But I'd hate to train primary school teachers in coding and then have them teach youngsters.

Jimmy Iovine · 28-03-2013 12:07AM

The English national curriculum is being overhauled at the moment. The ICT curriculum has been completely scrapped. They've introduced a draft curriculum that will start to be implemented in 2014. They've renamed ICT to Computers.

The aims of the Key Stage 1 (Juniors to 1st class) programme are:

Understand what algorithms are, how they are implemented as programs on digital devices, and that programs execute by following a sequence of instructions.

Write and test simple programs

The first aim of the Key Stage 2 (2nd class to 5th class) programme is:

Design and write programs that accomplish specific goals, including controlling or simulating physical systems; solve problems by decomposing them into smaller parts

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/c/computing%2004-02-13_001.pdf

I think it's a great idea. It's miles better than the current crap that they are taught. Children are shown the basics of PowerPoint and Publisher and that's it.

I've no idea how it's going to be taught. Nearly every teacher will have to go on a course beforehand so that they're not teaching it incorrectly.

garancafan · 28-03-2013 12:08AM

IMO understanding people should have a higher priority than understanding machines.

Seachmall · 28-03-2013 12:12AM

garancafan wrote: »

IMO understanding people should have a higher priority than understanding machines.

Empathy and social skills should be developed in the home and school yard.

Practical knowledge and skills should be developed in the classroom.

Jimoslimos · 28-03-2013 12:12AM

I'm still unsure on what the great need is for anyway?

Is a knowledge of how the internal combustion engine and transmission works essential to operate a motor vehicle? Nope, you just need to know how the pedals and controls work on the drivers end.

Good technology should strive to remove as much complexity for the end-user (which paradoxically makes it more complex to design)

Dwork · 28-03-2013 12:13AM

ElleEm wrote: »

I sense I am going to get banned from Boards for saying this, but I have absolutely no idea what coding is. Am I the only one? Please say I'm not the only one!!!

BANNED

UCDVet · 28-03-2013 12:16AM

As a software developer, I don't see the point in teaching programming or 'coding' in primary school.

I don't see anything 'fundamental' about it. There are plenty of other professions primary school equally ignore.

Seachmall · 28-03-2013 12:18AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I'm still unsure on what the great need is for anyway?

Is a knowledge of how the internal combustion engine and transmission works essential to operate a motor vehicle? Nope, you just need to know how the pedals and controls work on the drivers end.

Good technology should strive to remove as much complexity for the end-user (which paradoxically makes it more complex to design)

Because as anyone who works in IT or is known by their friends and family as "good with computers" knows people do in fact need to learn how to configure their router.

UCDVet wrote: »

As a software developer, I don't see the point in teaching programming or 'coding' in primary school.

I don't see anything 'fundamental' about it. There are plenty of other professions primary school equally ignore.

Because computers are an absolute integral part of our daily lives probably more than any other development in recent years and ignorance on the basic workings of them will result in a stupid population relying on things they've absolutely no idea about.

While blackboxing might be the aim of any developer we should at least have a society somewhat competent in the area.

Carnegie · 28-03-2013 12:20AM

garancafan wrote: »

IMO understanding people should have a higher priority than understanding machines.

I would agree that psychology should also be mandatory in school, the benefits to society of that would be huge, but thats a discussion for another thread

clairefontaine · 28-03-2013 12:20AM

We learned basic and logo at the end of elementary school back in the 80s. [Not in Ireland]

It really is no problem teaching kids this stuff. I cant remember any of it nor do i use it, but it was good to be exposed to it. Also because computers weren't that pervasive back then, no one took it seriously. It was kind of like we indulged the teacher, but I'm sure it would be different now.

At minimum it taught logical and sequential thinking.

Carnegie · 28-03-2013 12:25AM

UCDVet wrote: »

As a software developer, I don't see the point in teaching programming or 'coding' in primary school.

I don't see anything 'fundamental' about it. There are plenty of other professions primary school equally ignore.

Because coding is having a disruptive influence in EVERY profession and it won't be long until it completely takes over. Its the way the world is going.

bodice ripper · 28-03-2013 12:26AM

Right, I've to become a drug dealer at 60 so.

Better start upskilling.

miralize · 28-03-2013 12:28AM

I'm all for teaching kids how to learn technologies not only to help their careers later on, but also to give them an understanding of what a computer is, what is should and shouldn't be used for, and how to develop cool things on them.

Its increasingly important to learn about this stuff and I'd even say that 90% of boards.ie members have dabbled with BBcode, y'know the stuff that makes your text bold, embeds links, youtube videos etc. Thats just parsing the stuff to HTML and the syntax is very similar.

What I dont want to see is it being taught without the teacher being fully invested in it. Monotonous teaching of even HTML/CSS & JS - the basics - can be tiresome (speaking from personal experience of fellow college students struggling with simple concepts because it wasn't being taught properly or lethargically).

It's also can be, if done correctly, extremely involving. One-to-one teaching in this sort of subject is helpful, and often necessary to debug problems. Real life examples & encouraging experimentation is the key to this working. Personally though I'd base everything off the coderdojo movement, making it optional (not everyone wants to know this stuff, basic problem solving may be useful though), making it fun, and let the students explore what they want

TheUsual · 28-03-2013 12:29AM

Good idea, get the little free-loading nippers working at weekends programming apps for their parents.
Pay their way in life.

Midnight Sundance · 28-03-2013 12:34AM

It is great having all these suggestions for changing the primary curriculum .but to those saying it is essential to the future learning , How exactly do you suggest it is rolled out? I doubt there's more than 1% of teachers that would have a proficient clue of coding. How do you suggest it is taught? It's one thing saying it should be done in schools but its a completely different scenario implementing it.

I think an after school club activity was a great idea , however funding is then the next problem.

UCDVet · 28-03-2013 12:34AM

Seachmall wrote: »

Because as anyone who works in IT or is known by their friends and family as "good with computers" knows people do in fact need to learn how to configure their router.

Because computers are an absolute integral part of our daily lives probably more than any other development in recent years and ignorance on the basic workings of them will result in a stupid population relying on things they've absolutely no idea about.

While blackboxing might be the aim of any developer we should at least have a society somewhat competent in the area.

*Lots* of things are integral parts of our daily lives.

Water is far more important than software. I would have loved to learn the basics of plumbing in school, but that's just me. I don't need to know how to replace a sink to get by in life.

Agriculture/food is far more important than software. We all eat. I never learned the first thing about raising crops or livestock in primary school...but that's okay. Not everyone needs to know these things.

Driving is pretty important. I learned to drive, in part, through school. But I never learned anything more than the most basic *OPERATING PROCEDURES*. Writing code isn't about getting software to perform a task, it's about *creating* software. This would be akin to having students learn about engine design. A fascinating topic, sure; but hardly relevant to most students.

Programming, at an introductory level is going to be 'Okay kids, memorize these commands'. And languages evolve pretty fast, so there isn't a lot of value in memorizing them. At a slightly more involved level it will require applying simple discrete maths and simple logical operations. Both of which are covered in maths classes.

A more generic 'Basics of Operating a computer' might be useful; but not developing software.

clairefontaine · 28-03-2013 12:36AM

You may as well teach them. They will one day need interns to fill today's IT jobs.

garancafan · 28-03-2013 12:40AM

Seachmall wrote: »

...people do in fact need to learn how to configure their router.
.

Sure that could be done by a child in primary school - without any knowledge of coding.

bodice ripper · 28-03-2013 12:46AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

You may as well teach them. They will one day need interns to fill today's IT jobs.

Balls.

I am the daughter of a programmer, an avid life-long one at that. I distinctly remember being told during the late 90's to NOT pursue IT unless I was especially interested in it, as there would be massive competition for jobs after college and any job could be easily outsourced.

He and many of my friends are contractors, and my job, income and lifestyle are far more stable. I only have to compete with people in my geographical location.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 28-03-2013 12:50AM

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

The English national curriculum is being overhauled at the moment. The ICT curriculum has been completely scrapped. They've introduced a draft curriculum that will start to be implemented in 2014. They've renamed ICT to Computers.

The aims of the Key Stage 1 (Juniors to 1st class) programme are:

Understand what algorithms are, how they are implemented as programs on digital devices, and that programs execute by following a sequence of instructions.

Write and test simple programs

that's what i don't like about all IT teaching, it teaches the basic concepts of algorithms and O notation first instead of just making the computer do something cool as quickly as possible. that's what grabs people's attention. they can come back to why it worked later on.

i still remember how cool it was when i made my commodore 64 print 'hello world' in a loop down the TV screen as a 8 year old. been hooked since!

Seachmall · 28-03-2013 12:51AM

UCDVet wrote: »

*Lots* of things are integral parts of our daily lives.

Water is far more important than software. I would have loved to learn the basics of plumbing in school, but that's just me. I don't need to know how to replace a sink to get by in life.

Agriculture/food is far more important than software. We all eat. I never learned the first thing about raising crops or livestock in primary school...but that's okay. Not everyone needs to know these things.

Driving is pretty important. I learned to drive, in part, through school. But I never learned anything more than the most basic *OPERATING PROCEDURES*. Writing code isn't about getting software to perform a task, it's about *creating* software. This would be akin to having students learn about engine design. A fascinating topic, sure; but hardly relevant to most students.

If your internet connection dies now what are you going to do? Are you going to call a repair man? Maybe a friend who's good with computers? Or are you going to fix it yourself? Do you know how?

You should know how to unblock a sink and you should know how to jump start a car.

Likewise you should know how to troubleshoot and repair your computer or network. Doing this requires at least a basic understanding of the underlying logic.

Giving children these skills not only makes them more self-reliant but it also gives them a firm basis in the most in demand careers out there.

And that, at the end of the day, is the role of the classroom.

Programming, at an introductory level is going to be 'Okay kids, memorize these commands'. And languages evolve pretty fast, so there isn't a lot of value in memorizing them. At a slightly more involved level it will require applying simple discrete maths and simple logical operations. Both of which are covered in maths classes.

95% of passing a maths test in schools today is memorising.

Programming requires a similar way of thinking required for maths but it has a more immediate and practical application.

A more generic 'Basics of Operating a computer' might be useful; but not developing software.

I'm not suggesting we pump out programmers from primary school but we should at least give them the tools to allow them to be competent in this ever growing digital world.

was.deevey · 28-03-2013 01:04AM

I'm gonna step in here and say, while I dont think programming is a necessity, I do reckon there NEEDS to be online privacy and personal online security skills taught to primary school kids at the very least.

In todays age of smartphones, facebook, tumblr etc .. and the amount of crap that can be pulled up on just about anyone, photos, facebook, phone number is just scary. Honestly I would HATE to be a kid growing up in todays world when all it takes is a photo, a post or something in the wrong place that could potentially ruin your life (or at least feel like it ruined) and in all honesty i'm really fearful of what things will be like in a few years for my own kids.

While some people will say "its up to the parents" to teach their kids what they can and cant do. Where it comes to the internet the parents in many cases are simply not tech savvy enough to even realize that 'lil johnny can get online and use his iphone to post pictures and live chat whenever he damn well likes. While kids are then naive enough that they dont think things they post be that their thoughts, pics, videos, will either not be noticed or have any repercussions in the future.

However From a coding point of view I reckon secondary is good enough to learn programming/coding .. basic html, database skills (nothing too hefty), excel, word etc... throw in some basic video editing or flash to make it interesting (thats key). It should be part of the mandatory curriculum, with religion and irish as mentioned being optional. At the end of the day if you don't have a basic grasp of irish, and have zero interest in something after 8 years in primary whats the point in trying to hammer it in anymore - If you have an interest, fine go learn it instead of something useful.

Over here (Philippines) a friend of mine teaches IT systems/php/wordpress and moblie app development to 12-16 year olds.

Going back 12 years ago I worked with an absolutely brilliant programmer from china who learned all his programming php/mysql/c+ in high school - he never did any IT in uni but decided to do Music instead.

Programming requires a similar way of thinking required for maths but it has a more immediate and practical application.

If programming was made interesting, I bet that maths scores would skyrocket as kids would visually see the applications of what these numbers achieve, rather than just spitting out a random answer at the end.

UCDVet · 28-03-2013 01:04AM

Seachmall wrote: »

If your internet connection dies now what are you going to do? Are you going to call a repair man? Maybe a friend who's good with computers? Or are you going to fix it yourself? Do you know how?

You should know how to unblock a sink and you should know how to jump start a car.

Likewise you should know how to troubleshoot and repair your computer or network. Doing this requires at least a basic understanding of the underlying logic.

Giving children these skills not only makes them more self-reliant but it also gives them a firm basis in the most in demand careers out there.

And that, at the end of the day, is the role of the classroom.

95% of passing a maths test in schools today is memorising.

Programming requires a similar way of thinking required for maths but it has a more immediate and practical application.

I'm not suggesting we pump out programmers from primary school but we should at least give them the tools to allow them to be competent in this ever growing digital world.

If my internet connection dies the LAST thing I'm going to do is open up my favorite IDE and start writing some code.

I would unplug it/plug it back in.
If that doesn't fix it in 10 minutes, I'd call my internet service provider.

And I'm saying this as a reasonably competent tech guy. Knowing the OSI model or TCP/IP isn't going to help or mater for consumer level services. And that would be a Networking class, not a 'writing code' class.

I can't think of any practical task that would require a very basic understanding of writing software. Anything a student could handle would already be written and available for download (probably 3-4 free versions) on whatever App Store they know how to download from.

kirving · 28-03-2013 01:07AM

UCDVet wrote: »

A more generic 'Basics of Operating a computer' might be useful; but not developing software.

It's certainly a useful skill to have, so you can even approach a problem you have with a computer rather than calling someone else. I've done a bit of basic VBA(Excel) in college, and it really is of great benefit to solve everyday problems. I'm now using LabVIEW in my FYP and can think of hundreds of cool things which I could design for my house if I could afford the hardware!

Even if you're not writing code, or haven't studied engine design, or trained to be a plumber, knowing how everyday things works is of great value, and allows you to analyse a problem and solve it.

shinkansen · 28-03-2013 01:14AM

Carnegie wrote: »

Its a national disgrace how this is not a mandatory subject from primary school onwards. Yet again we have to wait for the rest of the world to add it to its primary school curriculum before we go "oh hey maybe we should add it too!!!"

0011010001110001010001

Seachmall · 28-03-2013 01:20AM

UCDVet wrote: »

If my internet connection dies the LAST thing I'm going to do is open up my favorite IDE and start writing some code.

I would unplug it/plug it back in.
If that doesn't fix it in 10 minutes, I'd call my internet service provider.

And I'm saying this as a reasonably competent tech guy. Knowing the OSI model or TCP/IP isn't going to help or mater for consumer level services. And that would be a Networking class, not a 'writing code' class.

I can't think of any practical task that would require a very basic understanding of writing software. Anything a student could handle would already be written and available for download (probably 3-4 free versions) on whatever App Store they know how to download from.

I think people are getting too caught up in the programming aspect of my posts.

My point is that teaching the fundamentals of how computers operate would give children a better understanding of the world we live in, make them less reliant on third parties and give them a solid basis to enter a careers market that is increasingly demanding these skills.

I don't understand why we make geography mandatory while ignoring topics that are directly and immediately relevant to their lives.

jimmycrackcorm · 28-03-2013 01:26AM

It is and will always be a pervasive part of our lives. I'd consider programming a more important educational necessity than subjects such as geography and history let alone Irish and religion.

The great thing about it is that it can be fun to teach by teaching simple game programming for example.

Sisko · 28-03-2013 01:35AM

fortune wookiee wrote: »

Mandatory? A national disgrace?

Come off it.

It should be optional in secondary school.

Most interest from IT comes from males (I'm sure). A lot of girls (as would some guys) resent it as they do Irish/religion.

It's certainly not for everybody and this is just the latest in a line of lazy attacks on the school system. though not at all perfect, I admit.

People coming out of school in this day and age not understand computers is a disgrace.

I don't care what you say about girls/guys or any such other sexist crap.

It's 2013. People should be coming out of primary with a basic foundation level understanding of computers and operating systems.

Coding should then be optional but pushed heavily as an option in secondary school.

But of course we're far too backwards :rolleyes:

Jimmy Iovine · 28-03-2013 01:53AM

georgiecasey wrote: »

that's what i don't like about all IT teaching, it teaches the basic concepts of algorithms and O notation first instead of just making the computer do something cool as quickly as possible. that's what grabs people's attention. they can come back to why it worked later on.

i still remember how cool it was when i made my commodore 64 print 'hello world' in a loop down the TV screen as a 8 year old. been hooked since!

It's very hard to impress children with technology these days. They have pretty much seen and used everything.

It's not a fool-proof curriculum and it will change but it is better than the half-arsed system in place at the moment.

There are teachers who will be unable to teach it though. I know teachers who are almost afraid of computers. I asked one teacher how big was her USB key and she showed me a 2 inch length using her fingers. I know another who when asked what operating system she was using on her computer replied with "Microsoft Word 2010".

Teachers need to be taught these things before they can teach the children. Otherwise, it's a complete waste of time and will just stymie any interest that a child may have in the area.

Why is coding still not taught in Irish primary schools?

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