One of those what I'd do with transport if I was the king rants

LXFlyer · 21-03-2013 9:19pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Staff cuts from top down (expect 600-1000 job cuts), only one CEO of the company and each operate will have one senior manager to report to CEO. Pay cap of 70,000 (CEO of company and chief engineer on 70,000) everybody else below this amount.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come off it, any normal person would have no problems running CIE for a good wage in todays climate. You say CIE management have the calibre required to run a company. Time to get real. The only thing that senior management (not all CIE staff) have is to much money and intellectual ability of an insect on how to run a company. All are complete waste of spaces and havn't a clue all should be sacked right away. Some of the most useless people employed in Ireland. I'm probably going to get in trouble for this but it needs to be said as its fact.

If you honestly think that is an appropriate salary for a CEO, CFO or Chief Engineer of a company with a turnover of €186M you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I'm sorry but that is not even close. The minimum would be €175k for a CEO, and that is a reality of what the market pays. €70k is a middle manager salary in a company that size, or perhaps a financial controller salary in a company of €50m.

Stating that every member of the management is:

A waste of space
Haven't a clue
Should be fired

Exactly what are you basing that on? The new IE CEO is in the job 2 months. What are the grounds that you are using to suggest that these criteria apply?

Similarly what have the respective CEOs, CFOs and CEs in the three companies specifically done that warrants that description?

Perhaps you can outline what the legal staff, insurers, accountants, individual garage engineering managers, etc. are all specifically doing that warrants this sort of comment.

Frankly it is a gratuitously offensive off-the-cuff comment to many of them. For sure there are roles that could be merged, or made redundant etc, but to tarnish everyone with the one brush is to make your argument look frankly ridiculous.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All station staff apart from busy stations got rid off.

Why? I think that you will find that most customers actually do want to see stations staffed. Staff also provide a deterrant to vandalism, and in the case of the Rosslare line have been very proactive in setting up local social media resources to make local connections with customers.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

RAIU and RSC merged with job cuts as a result.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well didn't know that but there is no need for them to be under separate roofs and have to many staff like they do now plenty of savings could be made.

I think Monument has already questioned this adequately - unless you can actually itemise which staff are not required?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The NTA will be scrapped as its pointless at the minute, decisions on service will be commercial basis and not political.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The train operator will oversee the timetable, planning etc. Some restrictions for fares but overall the NTA does nothing worthwhile. They will always agree with Irish Rail anyway.

Another sweeping comment with little basis in fact:

What about:

The major improvements in the bus licensing process?
The rollout of the integrated National Journey Planner?
Finally providing detailed justifications/explanations behind fare increases?

How do you know that the NTA has or has not agreed with IE or the other CIE operating company proposals? Have you put in an FOI request to justify that? That's a very sweeping comment with no basis to back it up other than your opinion. We know for a fact that they have not agreed to all of the fare requests that the companies have submitted.

The reality is that there needs to be accountability for the CIE Group companies - that is what the NTA does.

Mrs OBumble · 21-03-2013 10:49pm

If I was Queen of Galway (bah-humbug this king shyte), I would:

Abolish all train services outside of Dublin and the new mono-rail between Galway city and Shannon aiprport.

Introduce inner-city congestion charges - but give a free pass to everyone who actually lives in the inner city. And introduce car-sharing schemes on a far wider basis.

Double the frequency of the bus routes from Knocknacarra, Ballinfoyel and Parkmore - and half of the latter would to out to Oranmore and back.

Introduce an outer-oriter bus, connecting UHG/NUIG, Liosban, Ballybrit, GMIT and Mervue. High frequency in both directions. Running on bus lanes on the dual carriageways.

Make the Salthill bus go all the way to Barna and back, 15 minute frequency.

New city buses to Claregalway and Moycullen. 15 minute frequency.

Transfer tickets, to make it easy to change buses in the one journey.

Bus shelters at all bus stops.

Finish the new coach station, and make it big enough to take all the BE buses too. With a taxi stand outside. Covered walkway between there and the transport museum tourist attraction at Ceannt Station.

Proper cycle lanes on all major routes - and shoot any cyclists who ride the wrong way on one-way streets.

Ferrys to both Clare and the Aran Islands depart form Galway docks.

patrickbrophy18 · 21-03-2013 11:17pm

monument wrote: »

How is one deterred from their weekly shopping? Do they go hungry and use newspapers for bog roll? Or do they avoid parking charges by walking to the corner shop but end up spending way more on products?

Many people do their weekly shop and buy in bulk which can take some time. Unlike towns such as Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire, customers going to out-of-town centers like Cornelscourt don't have to worry about ticket men hounding their cars because it is free and limitless parking. In other words, privately run shopping centers don't make the same mistake as their public counterparts by creating a hostile shopping environment. Forcing out-of-town centers to impose parking charges (as per the suggestion in your opening post) will make them less attractive to go to. It is here where it would become a deterrent.

monument wrote: »

5km is going around St Stephens Green four times -- it's nothing and takes little effort for anybody half used of cycling. And -- before you say it -- nobody said cycling is for everybody.

If that is the case, why did you say "Cycling seen as replacement / substitute for public transport"?

The only commonality (and an important one at that) between cycling and public transport is that they do take cars off the road. However, they are a different breed of transport in many other ways. For example, public transport is efficient time-wise for metropolitan and intercity travel depending on how the infrastructure is configured. Cycling is fuel efficient and in many circumstances, efficient time-wise. Nevertheless, due to the mechanical nature of public transport, it is has far more potential for rapid transit. Sadly, Dublin heavily lacks the type of transport described in bold.

monument wrote: »

What do you mean optional? You make it sound like somebody suggested that there will be mandatory cycling for all -- which I is a million miles away from what I said...

What I meant was that people should still be allowed to choose their preferred mode of transport. Here are three scenarios:

If one lives in Dun Laoghaire and works in Ballycoolin, the fastest way there would be car (30-45 minutes). As someone who worked out in that direction, public transport took 2 hours. I'm not too sure how long this would take to cycle.
If you live in Bray and work in town, the fastest way would be the DART at 45 minutes. Currently, the car and bus take significantly longer. Given that Bray is so spread out, people living over a 15 minute walk from the station may opt for the bus as it's closer or cycle down to the train.
If living in Stradbrook and working in Sandyford, the bicycle is the most sensible option from a fuel efficiency point of view.

I could go on forever with these different travel permutations. But, I couldn't be arsed. Bottom line, people should be free to choose the mode of travel they are most comfortable with.

monument wrote: »

As usually, your generalisations are meaningless...

Many (if not, most) people would be reluctant to cycle when it's pissing it down. Like it or not, people would much rather travel in a sheltered environment than being blown out of it. The weather now is absolutely miserable which I can't see many people queuing to cycle in. I wouldn't necessarily call this meaningless.

monument wrote: »

here's some counter generalisations to highlight how meaningless generalisations are...
Public transport is often not quicker given the walking time, waiting time and delay time you have to factor in for public transport.

Walking to/from and waiting at bus and tram stops as well as train stations is often colder than cycling.

Sitting or standing beside smelly, noisy, or otherwise annoying people is not very relaxing, or is waiting for buses which never come, nor is getting caught in buses blocked by congestion.

The first point here is duly noted. It all depends on where you live and where you're going to. With the next point, yes, many bus, tram and train halts lack even basic shelter making them uncomfortable and Baltic to wait in. When you do board whatever vessel it is, you are shielded from the elements. I acknowledge that the intensive exercise performed while riding a bike generates heat. The last point is a regular occurrence on public transport and I sympathize with anyone who has to tolerate it.

end of the road · 21-03-2013 11:47pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Abolish all trail services outside of Dublin

you mean train services? we must keep our railways at all costs

monument · 22-03-2013 12:46am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

A) I'm not bothered, this shouldn't be a serious discussion and You should read what I said, I said there are hundreds of variables (i.e. hard-to-quantify factors) that exist between countries for determining something as broad as transport strategy. If I have to start proving intangible basics like "Country A has differences in road infrastructure between Country B", why would I bother saying anything in this thread at all?? It'll just be another thread that will end up going around in circles. I think if I tried to name 3 "top reasons", you'd only question why they are important reasons at all. What's the point?

Please note this from the charter (btw I did not write it):

If you make a particular statement for or against a particular form of transport, you should be willing to back it up.

It's there because people say nonsense that they can't back up and then when questioned they come out with more nonsense (like "I'm not bothered", "hard-to-quantify factors", It'll "end up going around in circles" etc).

In future, please do not post a load of excuses -- just back up what you have said or don't bother posting.

This is a moderator warning. Please do not reply to this in thread.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

If I have to start proving intangible basics like "Country A has differences in road infrastructure between Country B",

The Netherlands did not have the road infrastructure it has today back in 1970. Things change and can be changed.

It seems the reason

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Many people do their weekly shop and buy in bulk which can take some time. Unlike towns such as Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire, customers going to out-of-town centers like Cornelscourt don't have to worry about ticket men hounding their cars because it is free and limitless parking. In other words, privately run shopping centers don't make the same mistake as their public counterparts by creating a hostile shopping environment. Forcing out-of-town centers to impose parking charges (as per the suggestion in your opening post) will make them less attractive to go to. It is here where it would become a deterrent.

And, importantly, the later half of the questions:

How is one deterred from their weekly shopping? Do they go hungry and use newspapers for bog roll? Or do they avoid parking charges by walking to the corner shop but end up spending way more on products?

A "deterrent" doesn't matter if it has no practical effect.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If that is the case, why did you say "Cycling seen as replacement / substitute for public transport"?

I was not suggesting to never provide public transport -- that would go against quite a few of my other points. It was more like: Cycling will be sometimes seen as replacement / substitute for public transport

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What I meant was that people should still be allowed to choose their preferred mode of transport. Here are three scenarios... I could go on forever with these different travel permutations. But, I couldn't be arsed. Bottom line, people should be free to choose the mode of travel they are most comfortable with.

And I have not said that people should be forced on to bikes, buses or trams by gun point.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Many (if not, most) people would be reluctant to cycle when it's pissing it down. Like it or not, people would much rather travel in a sheltered environment than being blown out of it. The weather now is absolutely miserable which I can't see many people queuing to cycle in. I wouldn't necessarily call this meaningless.

If we're going plan our transport around times when national weather warning are in effect, we're doomed!

Again: Dublin's weather is overall comparable to that of the Dutch and Danish capitals. Dublin has less extrema winters.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

With the next point, yes, many bus, tram and train halts lack even basic shelter making them uncomfortable and Baltic to wait in. When you do board whatever vessel it is, you are shielded from the elements.

IF you're walking to/from the bus you're still effected.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I acknowledge that the intensive exercise performed while riding a bike generates heat.

This may seem like nit picking replying in such detail but it's important in the context of cycling for the masses: Most commuting cycling around the world is not intensive exercise. Most keep warm by wearing suitable clothing.

Grandeeod · 22-03-2013 1:04am

I have noted that abolishing CIE is a problem for some. However abolishing this monolith must be done. It is a failed brand, pure and simple. I respect that there is an awful lot of repositioning to be done in relation to the entire legal aspect, but lets not be scared. Removing CIE and its culture from the Irish public transport landscape is the first and most important move that could be made if I was the King. CIE represents far more than a poor record of public transport. I believe that even its staff do not understand how important its removal from Irish public transport is. How could they? Its impossible, because they are intrinsically linked to how it works. Despite good intentions from some staff, management are still governed by a begging bowl approach. This ultimately feeds back to the grass roots.

I genuinely do believe that there is a staff culture of me first, job second, within the CIE group. This view is not drawn from just the current problem. It is based on the history of the entire CIE entity and what is was spawned from. I can only suggest that more of you explore the background of how CIE was created.

All that said, I still come back to my original point which is based on a very basic premise. When a brand has failed in the eyes of the public, you rebrand. But in the case of CIE, you must destroy the 60 odd years of culture during the process. I don't expect CIE employees or their supporters to understand as I'm only speaking from a consumers point of view.

Hilly Bill · 22-03-2013 1:06am

What difference would it make to you if it happened?

Grandeeod · 22-03-2013 1:42am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What difference would it make to you if it happened?

Personally.....Ireland could start to move forward in terms of public transport and stop being a laughing stock. Its frightening when you see other parts of Europe doing it so well. Its rather simple.....really. Honestly, you would be surprised by how many other nationalities think Irish public transport is.....eh.....crap. Why is it crap? Because the state and its semi state company have a nice little thing going on, based on anything except serving the public efficiently.

monument · 22-03-2013 2:15am

I said I'd reply in detail to this...

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

But one is inherently designed for individual movement whereas most others are better suited to groups of people, goods transport or both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q-ej1eihoU

t172BKY

Individual movement possible on a mass scale.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Carriage of luggage.

Quite possible by bike. Or do you think there's no carrying of luggage or goods by bicycle in the Netherlands or Denmark?

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Accompanying children.

And also no children in the Netherlands or Denmark?

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Temporary or permanent mobility issues.

From electric bikes to bikes adapted there's a number of bicycles for people with many types of mobility issues and there's other bikes suit to carrying these people. The Dutch also have a good working example of allowing mobility scooters etc in bike paths.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

And cycling can have a reasonably significant capital cost in comparison to the number of people a bus could carry over its lifetime. That needs to be considered too.

Nothing compared to the cost of the bus, the drivers, the fuel, the bus stops, the road wear, the back end office, etc etc.

Cycling is cheaper to provide for.

lucernarian · 22-03-2013 3:06am

monument wrote:

And also no children in the Netherlands or Denmark?

I may reply more thoroughly when I get a chance but I wanted to clarify this first. What does that statement relate to? We both know that there's kids in Ireland and Denmark. But I can't see the relevance beyond that. I presume there are school buses in Denmark also? The things that kids might take, if they or their parents happened to feel a bus was more appropriate than a bicycle for their particular needs.

Anyway some kids will be of an age where they cannot cycle, while still unable to to be carried in arms or in cradles strapped to backs nor placed on bike seats, nor simply left at home.

LXFlyer · 22-03-2013 7:45am

Grandeeod wrote: »

I have noted that abolishing CIE is a problem for some. However abolishing this monolith must be done. It is a failed brand, pure and simple. I respect that there is an awful lot of repositioning to be done in relation to the entire legal aspect, but lets not be scared. Removing CIE and its culture from the Irish public transport landscape is the first and most important move that could be made if I was the King. CIE represents far more than a poor record of public transport. I believe that even its staff do not understand how important its removal from Irish public transport is. How could they? Its impossible, because they are intrinsically linked to how it works. Despite good intentions from some staff, management are still governed by a begging bowl approach. This ultimately feeds back to the grass roots.

I genuinely do believe that there is a staff culture of me first, job second, within the CIE group. This view is not drawn from just the current problem. It is based on the history of the entire CIE entity and what is was spawned from. I can only suggest that more of you explore the background of how CIE was created.

All that said, I still come back to my original point which is based on a very basic premise. When a brand has failed in the eyes of the public, you rebrand. But in the case of CIE, you must destroy the 60 odd years of culture during the process. I don't expect CIE employees or their supporters to understand as I'm only speaking from a consumers point of view.

For clarity (as I'm assuming you are referring to my post above) - I don't have an issue with a restructuring/rebranding. In fact it probably has to happen.

My issues were with sweeping generalised comments such as "fire all the CIE staff" when it was blatantly obvious the poster concerned hadn't a clue what those staff actually did.

Similarly making sweeping generalised comments about an entire management is frankly ridiculous, particularly when a CEO has only been in the job 2 months!

monument · 22-03-2013 9:10am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I may reply more thoroughly when I get a chance but I wanted to clarify this first. What does that statement relate to? We both know that there's kids in Ireland and Denmark. But I can't see the relevance beyond that. I presume there are school buses in Denmark also? The things that kids might take, if they or their parents happened to feel a bus was more appropriate than a bicycle for their particular needs.

You were making out that cycling and children were somehow incompatible.

Outside Dutch and Danish schools mostly look like their train station -- rows and rows of bicycles outside.

Bus use in the Netherlands is a tiny fraction of that of cycling.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Anyway some kids will be of an age where they cannot cycle, while still unable to to be carried in arms or in cradles strapped to backs nor placed on bike seats, nor simply left at home.

What age do you think children can't cycle and also can't be carried on a bike?

You seem to be stating what you're saying as fact yet you don't seen to know much about how children can be carried by bike.

lucernarian · 22-03-2013 11:26am

monument wrote: »

What age do you think children can't cycle and also can't be carried on a bike?

You seem to be stating what you're saying as fact yet you don't seen to know much about how children can be carried by bike.

I have no particular opinion on what the exact age would be as clearly kids can develop at different ages physically. Child seats are available for pretty much all ages but then if the toddler will be upset because they're afraid of being on a moving bike at relatively big height off the ground (for them), to pick an example on the spot, having a bike seat will not be of much use.

The point I was trying to make is one of fundamental choice, in that people may not alway feel that using a bike will be necessarily more appropriate than using a bus, both for their own individual reasons and for reasons of social good. For instance, what I outlined above - the situation of a screaming toddler because they "just don't want to" or are afraid. This is the easiest example to offer, my intention is show that valid circumstances exist for people to choose an alternative to bicycles - not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with using a bicycle rather than train or bus.

LXFlyer · 22-03-2013 12:01pm

To be fair monument - that point that "to be confirmed" makes here is the point that I was making too - it does boil down to personal choice.

You and your family like to cycle everywhere. Not everyone wants to do that.

I'm happier walking and using public transport, others will prefer to drive. As I said above, for those of us who don't want to drive I do not consider that cycling should be prioritised over public transport. It should be promoted in equal measure. They're not mutually exclusive.

monument · 22-03-2013 12:21pm

I'm removing my last mod warning -- but please be mindful if the charter.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I have no particular opinion on what the exact age would be as clearly kids can develop at different ages physically. Child seats are available for pretty much all ages but then if the toddler will be upset because they're afraid of being on a moving bike at relatively big height off the ground (for them), to pick an example on the spot, having a bike seat will not be of much use.

The point I was trying to make is one of fundamental choice, in that people may not alway feel that using a bike will be necessarily more appropriate than using a bus, both for their own individual reasons and for reasons of social good. For instance, what I outlined above - the situation of a screaming toddler because they "just don't want to" or are afraid. This is the easiest example to offer, my intention is show that valid circumstances exist for people to choose an alternative to bicycles - not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with using a bicycle rather than train or bus.

Toddlers get upset in cars, on buses, and just in prams or even walking. Shockley people still bring children places using those modes.

The problem is you are coming up with problems that don't have any bases in reality and/or it's as if you're replying to me saying cycling will suit everybody all the time.

I have talked to a lot of people online and off about children on bikes and your fictional one about a toddler in fear never cropped up. But it does not matter if it did once because its the population lever that matter.

May again the current Irish children on bikes are different to future children? or Dutch and Danish children are just wildly diffrent?

The problem is you can't back up what you're saying.

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair monument - that point that "to be confirmed" makes here is the point that I was making too - it does boil down to personal choice.

You and your family like to cycle everywhere. Not everyone wants to do that.

I'm happier walking and using public transport, others will prefer to drive. As I said above, for those of us who don't want to drive I do not consider that cycling should be prioritised over public transport. It should be promoted in equal measure. They're not mutually exclusive.

I'm not saying people should not in the future have no choice of walking or driving -- I'm not saying take away personal choice. But state policy in many areas isn's based on current personal choices -- it's based in making better options (giving up smoking, eating less junk, walking, cycling etc) more attractive.

The Dutch etc approch is about making cycling attractive to the wider population.
Cycling in its self is also used to make rail more attractive, with around 50% of rail uses using bikes for part of their trips.

LXFlyer · 22-03-2013 12:45pm

Check my post again monument - I said that public transport and cycling ought to be promoted in equal measure under state policy.

They complement one another and are not / should not be mutually exclusive.

The reality is that many people will prefer PT to cycling and also v.v. for a whole variety of reasons, including personal choice/circumstances. I don't think that it would be right to push cycling ahead of PT.

As I said - you and your family like to cycle everywhere. Not everyone else will be happy to do that and frankly I would hate to think that state policy would force people to do so due to public transport being removed.

lucernarian · 22-03-2013 1:57pm

Monument wrote:

I have talked to a lot of people online and off about children on bikes and your fictional one about a toddler in fear never cropped up. But it does not matter if it did once because its the population lever that matter.

Would you care to explain why you feel that was fictional? I'm suprised that my own experiences now come down to "fiction". There surely was a better way to phrase that then to say I'm making stuff up...

Irish Steve · 22-03-2013 2:12pm

Based on some personal experiences recently, the issues are deep and fundamental. Public transport needs to be coordinated, and made user friendly. At the moment, it is not.

A simple example. There are ferries from Dublin to Holyhead several times a day. The early ferries leave at around 8 am, there are 3, 2 traditional ships that take about 3 hrs 30mins, and a fast ferry that can be weather dependent, which takes just under 2 hours.

As things stand right now, it's not possible to get them using public transport from places as close as Ashbourne, the first bus to town leaves Ashbourne (in theory) at 0625, and is scheduled to arrive at Beresford Place at 0720. There is a chartered DB bus to Dublin port, it leaves Heuston at 0700, and Busaras at 0715, in order to connect with the 0805 and 0845 sailings, so that doesn't work, while the 0625 often arrives in O'Connell St by 0705, it can't be relied on to do that, we went up for the 0625 last week at 0615 to be safe, and it was just going through Ashbourne to Kilmoon Cross at that time, and eventually left Ashbourne at 0740, so 15 minutes late. It still made Beresford Place before 0720, but too late for the 0715 DB service.

For the evening crossing at about 2100, there is again a bus from Busaras only, which is fine, but when you get to Holyhead, at about 0030, the first train out is then at 0450, so a very long wait with very little in the way of facilities during that time, so its not just Ireland that has problems in that respect.

In the same vein, Ashbourne is the second largest town in Meath. There are effectively 3 bus services, the 103, the 105, and more recently, the 109A. Both the 103 and 105 are BE services, both to Beresford Place, one goes via Finglas, the other via Ratoath and Blanchardstown, and the 109A goes to the airport and DCU. Apart from that, there's a rare 177 to kingscourt, and some of the 103s go to Kilmoon and even fewer go on to Duleek.

The main hospitals for the area are either Blanchardstown, or Drogheda. Try getting to either of them by public transport. The 105 is one every 2 hours, and there are no services to Drogheda other than going to the airport or Busaras and getting the service to Drogheda from there.

What to do if you work in Tallaght, or Sandyford, or Citywest, or Parkwest? BE to the centre of town then all the way out again, or use the car, as there's no other viable option, and to go via Busaras takes a long time, the schedule running time from Ashbourne to Beresford place is 55 minutes even though the distance is only 10 miles. Then there's the problem of the cross city links, or lack of, and the lack of peripheral public transport routes around Dublin to facilitate commuters.

Even the concept of Park & Ride has been pretty much ignored. There's nothing on the N/M1 side, or the N/M2, or most other routes in from the south, there is the M3 Park & ride at Dunboyne, but the trains that connect with it are not much help out of commuting times, so no use for an evening show or weekends.

A Luas out to Finglas, then splitting to serve the Airport, the new Thornton Hall site, and on to Ashbourne might help, as would changing the Ashbourne buses to DB, and extending things like Rolestown and Hollystown services to Ashbourne, as well as sorting out some M50 link services, to enable getting a bus to Finglas, then change to a service that serves the M50, and then on to Luas or a bus at Sandyford, or Red Cow, or whichever, making it possible to avoid the city centre and the associated delays.

The other issues of management and the entire structure of the system are also fundamental, and realistically, way beyond the sort of discussions that happen here, the changes needed are so fundamental as to defy description.

I'm sure there are plenty of other people and areas that have similar issues, but the chances of there being any significant modifications to the status quo are about similar to the chances of a fundamental change in the political system in this country, which is also long overdue and essential if Ireland is ever to stand a chance of getting out of the mess that years of compromise coalition stroke politics have got us in to.

LXFlyer · 22-03-2013 3:30pm

But I would ask the question - exactly how many people need to make that trip to get to the ferry port in a year from Ashbourne - the numbers would be minimal.

As it is you could take the 109a to the airport and a 41 or 747 from there and make the connection for the ferry.

Orbital links are very difficult to plan. Unlike radial routes where people by and large are going with to/from the city or points along the route, most individual orbital journeys all tend to have different starting and ending points. Therefore what tends to happen is that the bus routes are focussed on areas that will deliver bums on seats to the maximum effect all day - i.e. serving towns, shopping centres and hospitals.

Incidentally, there are now far more cross-city links than ever in Dublin post Network Direct, so I'm not sure how you conclude that there is a paucity of them.

In terms of linking Ashbourne with Blanchardstown - I would have thought that every 2 hours is about right for the demand. Otherwise you end up with services carrying thin air.

monument · 22-03-2013 3:34pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Would you care to explain why you feel that was fictional? I'm suprised that my own experiences now come down to "fiction". There surely was a better way to phrase that then to say I'm making stuff up...

The way you wrote it, it did not sound like you were outing your experiences... And in that case sorry for the way I phrased my responce.

But as I also said: it does not matter if it did (happen) once because its the population lever that matter.

admiralofthefleet · 22-03-2013 4:31pm

1, Start addressing the public transport deficit on the neglected northside of Dublin

2, Feasibility study into reopening of some lines in the west Cork system

3, Reopen and redevelop Foynes as a deep water port with freight rail access

4, Reopen Rosslare to Waterford

thats just a start

jack presley · 22-03-2013 4:49pm

What would happen all the money raised from the charging to park at out of town shopping centres? They're all privately owned so the owners are not going to rush into investing the takings into public transport. Why should they?

The reason RGData brought this up recently was because of parking charges in town centres result in people not going into towns to shop. So if out of town shopping centres have charges it will be the same so some people will start to shop in town again. Which will mean more traffic in towns and more congestion and isn't that what we're trying to avoid?

I know we all want to live in Denmark and Holland and cycle everywhere but there are only so many shopping bags you can hang off your handlebars!

monument · 22-03-2013 6:20pm

jack presley wrote: »

What would happen all the money raised from the charging to park at out of town shopping centres? They're all privately owned so the owners are not going to rush into investing the takings into public transport. Why should they?

It would be a tax -- it could be put into the genral national or local tax pool or ring-fenced for public transport, walking cycling etc.

If you can tax a previously free plastic bags you can tax a parking space.

jack presley wrote: »

The reason RGData brought this up recently was because of parking charges in town centres result in people not going into towns to shop. So if out of town shopping centres have charges it will be the same so some people will start to shop in town again. Which will mean more traffic in towns and more congestion and isn't that what we're trying to avoid?

If the towns and the parking spaces in them are as empty as you and RGDATA make out, then a few more shoppers are hardly going to cause congestion. And car travel isn't the only way -- there's walking,cycling and public transport....

jack presley wrote: »

I know we all want to live in Denmark and Holland and cycle everywhere but there are only so many shopping bags you can hang off your handlebars!

You don't see than many bags off handlebars in those places -- people have handlebar mounted baskets or cargo boxes, and rear racks which can carry two bike bags (called panniers) as well as being able to strap things on top of the rack.... That's before mentioning cargo bikes of different sizes and types.

jack presley · 22-03-2013 6:45pm

monument wrote: »

You don't see than many bags off handlebars in those places -- people have handlebar mounted baskets or cargo boxes, and rear racks which can carry two bike bags (called panniers) as well as being able to strap things on top of the rack.... That's before mentioning cargo bikes of different sizes and types.

I don't know if you're trolling or just delirious but do you seriously think leaving the car behind and becoming a Sherpa on a bike when you go to do with the week's shopping is a reasonable and practical alternative to driving the car to the out of town shopping centre?

I take it you don't bring kids with you when you're going on your weekly shop? (please don't respond with an answer saying you can get extra carriers for them and drag them behind on your bike or you can all go on bikes in convoy and make it a family expedition - then I'll know you're definitely trolling!)

Irish Steve · 22-03-2013 7:59pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But I would ask the question - exactly how many people need to make that trip to get to the ferry port in a year from Ashbourne - the numbers would be minimal.

It's moot, as it can't be done, so any passengers that would use the 103 cannot get to Busaras in time, and the same will be true for many other routes. One might also ask, how many people travel from Dublin Airport at 0630, to which the answer 20 years ago would have been none, now, it's a lot higher, which came first, the chicken or the egg. The ferries are there, and could be used, but getting to them is not easy at present, due to lack of coordination. By car, it's expensive, port tunnel charges, and day parking rates are expensive at the port.

As it is you could take the 109a to the airport and a 41 or 747 from there and make the connection for the ferry.

At a much more expensive price, due to the non transferability of fares between 2 sections of the same company, 2 people from the airport to Busaras on the 747 is almost the same price as a taxi from Busaras to the port, and the bus from Busaras to the port adds to that still.

The problem is that it does not take 55 minutes to get from Ashbourne to Beresford Place at 0625, last week, we left Ashbourne after 0640, and were still there at 0715, so if the bus ran on time, rather than 15 minutes late, and was scheduled with a more meaningful time for the route, the connect would be possible, as it would be at Beresford Place at 0705. That might encourage more people to use the facility, and increase the usage of the ferry, as it stands, quite a few people end up having to either overnight in Dublin or use expensive alternatives to get to the port for what is not as such an early departure.

Orbital links are very difficult to plan. Unlike radial routes where people by and large are going with to/from the city or points along the route, most individual orbital journeys all tend to have different starting and ending points. Therefore what tends to happen is that the bus routes are focussed on areas that will deliver bums on seats to the maximum effect all day - i.e. serving towns, shopping centres and hospitals.

If the planners of the M50 had not made such a shambles of the design, resulting in some crazy architecture, a couple of bus shelters on each intersection would make it very easy to have an orbital service that came off the motorway at each intersection and did one orbit of the junction (so covering both inbound and outbound shelters), then straight back on to the motorway and the next junction. So, as an example, if I want to go from Ashbourne to Citywest, I would get off at the inbound shelter on the Finglas intersection, get the next bus southbound and get off at the outbound shelter on the N7, then take the next bus to Citywest, and then repeat the concept on the return. That would be a LOT faster than having to go all the way in to Busaras, then all the way out to the Red Cow on the local services.
For long distance buses, it might also be worth them then only picking up or dropping at the centre and the motorway, with DB being the "short haul" link.

I would suggest that an orbital on that principle, properly structured to have the right links from both directions, would be a busy service, it's a short term fix to not having the full metro service that was being planned.

Incidentally, there are now far more cross-city links than ever in Dublin post Network Direct, so I'm not sure how you conclude that there is a paucity of them.

Simply from looking at the way they work and the routes they serve, too many of them are merges of routes that still serve the city centre, with the attendant delays and overcrowding at peak periods

In terms of linking Ashbourne with Blanchardstown - I would have thought that every 2 hours is about right for the demand. Otherwise you end up with services carrying thin air.

So you see no problem with having to leave Ashbourne at 1150 in order to make a 1430 appointment at Blanchardstown hospital, and then not getting back to Ashbourne until possibly 1750, depending on what time you finish at the hospital? That's a long overhead on what might only be a 20 minute appointment, and again, complex in the ongoing absence of the LEAP system on BE, so also expensive.

Yes, there are probably alternative routes,(103 to Finglas) then Mellowes road to Blanch) but those routes involve changes, which are not so easy if you have a child and buggy to take along for the ride as well, and the absence of LEAP is still an issue.

LXFlyer · 22-03-2013 8:16pm

You can still connect into the first 41 or the first 33 on the Swords Road from the 109a.

The bottom line is that public transport is designed to meet the demands of the many rather than the demands of the few, and that is the reality of what we can afford. In terms of the hospital frankly I don't where the huge demand for such an hourly service is going to come from that will fill the buses.

Irish Steve · 22-03-2013 9:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

You can still connect into the first 41 or the first 33 on the Swords Road from the 109a.

The bottom line is that public transport is designed to meet the demands of the many rather than the demands of the few, and that is the reality of what we can afford. In terms of the hospital frankly I don't where the huge demand for such an hourly service is going to come from that will fill the buses.

The first 41 is 0708 at lower Abbey St, so that's 7 minutes to get to the next bus. Our 103 was 15 late the other morning, so do I want to take that risk?

The 33 might work, but if DB can run from Balbriggan at 0450, there's clearly a demand, and we were far from being the only passengers on the 0615 from Kilmoon Cross last week,

I thought this thread was about what I'd do with transport if I was king, not about justifying all the usual bean counter negatives that are being put about.

A LONG time ago, across the water, there was a famous report by a Dr Beeching, and the implementation of his report decimated the British Rail network, and its taken close on 50 years to realise that some of the things he decided were uneconomic were not uneconomic in terms of their overall use, and benefit to the overall network, and they are now having to rebuild and restore a good few of his cuts.

The same could be said here, there are a number of rail routes that have been rebuilt or are being planned to be rebuilt, because the need IS there.

Public service is about transporting the public, and some of the routes and services are providing a service that enables people to get to places or facilities that otherwise would be difficult to get to.

I note nothing was said about the absence of a public transport service to Drogheda, which is a preferred hospital for the Ashbourne AREA, which has a population of in excess of 12000 people.

You want to get to Swords? Only if you go via the airport, or Finglas.

If the public transport services to Blanchardstown Hospital were better, perhaps they might not be struggling for parking space. I was over in the UK a few weeks ago, and regularly visiting a hospital of similar size to Blanchardstown, which has about the same number of beds. There are dedicated park and ride buses serving a car park some miles from the hospital, because on site parking is at a premium. There are also buses on a regular basis to a number of different areas of the city, and they are busy, because hospitals are busy places. Some of the buses are smaller than the standard DB buses, so cost less to buy, and less to operate, and they can run with more frequency. That may be another factor that has to be considered in the long term

There are 2 services to Blanchardstown hospital, and they are in some respects covering similar areas. There's nothing from places as close as Clonee, or Hollystown, or Phibsboro, or Castleknock, or Liffey Valley, and from plenty of other places that people who get ill will be taken from.

No, there may not be 20 people an hour going to Blanchardstown Hospital from Ashbourne, but I would suggest that facilitating visiting is something that a civilised society should be doing.

monument · 23-03-2013 5:06pm

jack presley wrote: »

I don't know if you're trolling or just delirious but do you seriously think leaving the car behind and becoming a Sherpa on a bike when you go to do with the week's shopping is a reasonable and practical alternative to driving the car to the out of town shopping centre?

I take it you don't bring kids with you when you're going on your weekly shop? (please don't respond with an answer saying you can get extra carriers for them and drag them behind on your bike or you can all go on bikes in convoy and make it a family expedition - then I'll know you're definitely trolling!)

jack presley · 23-03-2013 9:37pm

Thanks for that last post Monument, nothing more needs to be said.

strassenwo!f · 24-03-2013 1:00am

monument wrote: »

Toddlers get upset in cars, on buses, and just in prams or even walking. Shockley people still bring children places using those modes.

Monument...is your keyboard on the blink again, or is there really a problem with the behaviour of the denizens of Shockley?

One of those what I'd do with transport if I was the king rants

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