revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

Phoebas · 17-03-2013 02:12PM

SamHall wrote: »

I'd not worry about it at all tbh.

I'm not worried at all. I was just wondering if the Revenue will accept their own estimate, even if its not very accurate?

Anyone?

barneystinson · 17-03-2013 02:44PM

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not worried at all. I was just wondering if the Revenue will accept their own estimate, even if its not very accurate?

Anyone?

Jaysus wept - I can't see what is so hard to understand about this - Revenue haven't valued, or estimated the value of, your house.

Read what it says about the online tool:
"This service provides a guide to average market values of properties in a given locality and offers an indicative valuation band for properties depending on type, age and location. It does not provide market values for individual properties. The guidance is primarily based on the market value of properties sold since the year 2010 in the area, adjusted for average price movements in the interim.

This guidance will be helpful in the majority of cases but there are always properties in an area that differ from the average.

Self assessment requires property owners to honestly assess the market value of their own property. If a property is smaller or larger than the average for the area, is in a significantly poor state of repair or has exceptional or unique features, this will have to be factored into the assessment of the valuation band of the property."

I haven't seen the letter they send out but I expect it will say the same thing.

They're not trying to tell you how much your house is worth. They're telling you how much the average house in your area has sold for since 2010. If you don't self-assess and put a valuation on the house then this is the amount they'll come looking for.

Bruthal · 17-03-2013 03:36PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Reminds me of the TV licence advertisement: We've heard all the excuses!

Have you indeed?

tayto lover · 17-03-2013 04:42PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of them were that frightened that they decided that they better get two or three houses. And one in Bulgaria as well just for good measure.

I honestly think that this is total exaggeration.
The vast majority of mortgages were obtained for a single home which people needed to raise a family. I know of two people in a very wide circle of friends who purchased holiday/investment properties abroad and in one of those cases the lad was steeped in money anyway and only took a small mortgage to get tax relief.
Hundreds of thousands me as**.

dxhound2005 · 17-03-2013 05:39PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I honestly think that this is total exaggeration.
The vast majority of mortgages were obtained for a single home which people needed to raise a family. I know of two people in a very wide circle of friends who purchased holiday/investment properties abroad and in one of those cases the lad was steeped in money anyway and only took a small mortgage to get tax relief.
Hundreds of thousands me as**.

I'm only going by the number of NPPR payments around 340,000 and I have seen arguments from Dont Register Dont Pay elements that NPPR was largely ignored by the people with more than one house. Maybe all these people already owned two or ten houses before the Celtic Tiger but I doubt that.

handlemaster · 17-03-2013 05:43PM

SamHall wrote: »

I'd not worry about it at all tbh.

By the looks of some headlines today, what with labour 'imploding' and FF overtaking FG as the most popular party in the country again.

Labour are now at 9% on the opinion poll.

Over all, the 74% of the country are unhappy with the coalition. That's Pretty poor satisfaction rating, for any govt.

Seeing as how revenue have already stated that there will be no refunds for overpaid taxes, I'd guess that same rule will apply to anyone wanting a refund if a new govt scraps it.

Don't say you weren't warned.

I think ff will be back in the next election and I said that just after the last. We Irish are very forgiving lot.They will form a collition . I dont think they will.get rid of the property tax they wanted it in the first place. The country is still up to its neck in debt and the tax revenue still has to.come from somewhere. But they will promise to tweek it perhaps the city country divide on values will be looked at.

MadsL · 17-03-2013 06:22PM

Bullseye1 wrote: »

And then there are lemmings who want to hand over more money without meaningful changes in how local authorities conduct their business. If you ever had any dealings with local authorities then you wouldn't be so willing to give them more money. You have never seen so much money walk out the door as you do with their legal department who put everything on the long finger and then settle on the steps of the court at huge loses to the public purses.

Anyone who thinks that the property tax and water charges are patriotic are fooling themselves. It is just more money to be wasted by wasteful civil servants and poorly qualified elected representatives.

A fool and their money etc.

Isn't the best way to deal with that to raise the money locally and then you get a sense of local democracy and value for money. Personally I think the Mayor and City/County Managers should be elected from a shortlist, along with a value for money auditor who is also locally elected.

However on one the imperfections of this property tax is that it is based on the value of the house. A completely bankrupt notion that ruined the country, the tax should be based on a Site Valuation basis not a notional house value. The value of land should be a more stable and objective basis for tax.

solas111 · 17-03-2013 07:02PM

SamHall wrote: »

I'd not worry about it at all tbh.

By the looks of some headlines today, what with labour 'imploding' and FF overtaking FG as the most popular party in the country again.

Labour are now at 9% on the opinion poll.

Over all, the 74% of the country are unhappy with the coalition. That's Pretty poor satisfaction rating, for any govt.

Seeing as how revenue have already stated that there will be no refunds for overpaid taxes, I'd guess that same rule will apply to anyone wanting a refund if a new govt scraps it.

Don't say you weren't warned.

You can have Fianna Fail, The Greens (R.I.P. Thank God), Fine Gael, Labour or any combination but it won’t make a blind bit of difference.

It’s a laugh to listen to some of the Fianna Fail crowd kicking up a stink about property tax and all the other s**te that they came up with in the first place and were ready to introduce if they had managed the Houdini act at the last election.

A vote for Dustin the Turkey would be about as useful as casting a ballot for any of that lot. Far better to send some flowers and a begging letter to the Taoiseach, Frau. Merkel.

Banjo String · 17-03-2013 07:29PM

solas111 wrote: »

You can have Fianna Fail, The Greens (R.I.P. Thank God), Fine Gael, Labour or any combination but it won’t make a blind bit of difference.

It’s a laugh to listen to some of the Fianna Fail crowd kicking up a stink about property tax and all the other s**te that they came up with in the first place and were ready to introduce if they had managed the Houdini act at the last election.

A vote for Dustin the Turkey would be about as useful as casting a ballot for any of that lot. Far better to send some flowers and a begging letter to the Taoiseach, Frau. Merkel.

Hey solas,

Yeah, just for clarity, i hold FF in as much (possibly even more) contempt as I hold the current lot.

They have been calling for an abandonment of this tax now for a long time, (I'm under no illusion as to who it was signed us up to the current one btw) and I reckon a promise to scrap this tax will be the foundations of their election manifest.

Some nay-sayer's in this thread will try and tell us that they'll not scrap the tax, I don't agree though.

They're out in the cold ATM, and they don't like it one bit.

They're witnessing the lack of support for the current coalition, and they can see they broken promises, and an election campaign founded on lies, is not a wise move.

Like I say though, I think they're even worse than what we've got.

solas111 · 17-03-2013 08:04PM

SamHall wrote: »

Hey solas,

Yeah, just for clarity, i hold FF in as much (possibly even more) contempt as I hold the current lot.

They have been calling for an abandonment of this tax now for a long time, (I'm under no illusion as to who it was signed us up to the current one btw) and I reckon a promise to scrap this tax will be the foundations of their election manifest.

Some nay-sayer's in this thread will try and tell us that they'll not scrap the tax, I don't agree though.

They're out in the cold ATM, and they don't like it one bit.

They're witnessing the lack of support for the current coalition, and they can see they broken promises, and an election campaign founded on lies, is not a wise move.

Like I say though, I think they're even worse than what we've got.

I don’t know but I can’t see the FFs repeating the Jack Lynch trick of 1977 where they abolished car tax and the rates on houses. The car tax was brought back soon afterwards in the underhand and dishonest manner that these people operate. They all regretted the abolition of house rates and were desperate to bring them back as well but it was political suicide and no party had the guts to do it. The present economic crises has presented them with a perfect opportunity where they can blame the Troika and every other Tom, Dick and Harry for something they were too chicken to put their own names to.

I didn’t mention the nay-sayers simply because they didn’t get their bums on the soft seats yet. However, I would be very worried by where they seem to see a crock of gold. Their magical solution seems to be to raid the pension funds that people have contributed to all their lives and depend on for their retirement.

flutered · 17-03-2013 08:18PM

i have said back in the day that f.f.s biggest problem is how can they get their bumbrs on the reviewing stand for the 100th celebratings of the state, it looks like the present goverment have supplied them with the best seats on the stand.

solas111 · 17-03-2013 08:27PM

flutered wrote: »

i have said back in the day that f.f.s biggest problem is how can they get their bumbrs on the reviewing stand for the 100th celebratings of the state, it looks like the present goverment have supplied them with the best seats on the stand.

Do they not have to go through that democracy farce first, where they tell a lot of lies and people go out and vote for them?

Phoebas · 17-03-2013 08:38PM

barneystinson wrote: »

Jaysus wept - I can't see what is so hard to understand about this - Revenue haven't valued, or estimated the value of, your house.

Revenue do refer to it as an estimate on their website. Indeed, it is this figure that they will pursue if you don't cooperate.

revenue.ie wrote:

Don’t ignore the return. If you do, Revenue will pursue collection of the Estimate.

bgrizzley · 17-03-2013 08:52PM

flutered wrote: »

i have said back in the day that f.f.s biggest problem is how can they get their bumbrs on the reviewing stand for the 100th celebratings of the state, it looks like the present goverment have supplied them with the best seats on the stand.

regardless which bunch of tramps will be presiding, the people they are remembering will be ashamed of their legacy...

darkhorse · 18-03-2013 12:21AM

barneystinson wrote: »

But even if they're not talkin sh1te then they should still be advising people to pay over the tax pending the outcome of their legal challenge.

So, just let me ask you this. If the government were to demand another, lets say, 4 or 5 further taxes in the next 6 months, do you also advocate that the people should pay those aswell, no matter what the concequences to the family budget.

dxhound2005 · 18-03-2013 12:28AM

darkhorse wrote: »

So, just let me ask you this. If the government were to demand another, lets say, 4 or 5 further taxes in the next 6 months, do you also advocate that the people should pay those aswell, no matter what the concequences to the family budget.

If they brought in another 5 or 6 SW payments to which you were entitled would you refuse to take them?

barneystinson · 18-03-2013 12:32AM

darkhorse wrote: »

So, just let me ask you this. If the government were to demand another, lets say, 4 or 5 further taxes in the next 6 months, do you also advocate that the people should pay those aswell, no matter what the concequences to the family budget.

There's a difference between refusing to pay and simply not being able to.

Banjo String · 18-03-2013 12:39AM

barneystinson wrote: »

There's a difference between refusing to pay and simply not being able to.

Ah, the penny drops at last.

barneystinson · 18-03-2013 12:54AM

SamHall wrote: »

Ah, the penny drops at last.

Yaaaaaaaaawn, you're boring the hole off me - explain to me so why anyone planning on subscribing to some spiel about legal challenges wouldn't be better off to pay the tax if they can afford to.

If the legal challenge fails the tax will be collected whether they like it or not, but it'll cost them more.

If the tax is illegal (which it's not) then they'll be refunded.

darkhorse · 18-03-2013 12:59AM

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not worried at all. I was just wondering if the Revenue will accept their own estimate, even if its not very accurate?

Anyone?

Yes, they will.

darkhorse · 18-03-2013 02:27AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If they brought in another 5 or 6 SW payments to which you were entitled would you refuse to take them?

I can't see how I could be entitled to, so a moot point.

MadsL · 18-03-2013 03:47AM

barneystinson wrote: »

There's a difference between refusing to pay and simply not being able to.

At the risk of getting my head bitten off, how is it someone who owns a house/apt is not be able to afford a €30-50 month tax?

Are we saying everyone is in NE and unable to sell? In which case is renting out the house and downsizing to a rented apt not the answer.

Do explain.

mfceiling · 18-03-2013 08:54AM

barneystinson wrote: »

Jaysus wept - I can't see what is so hard to understand about this - Revenue haven't valued, or estimated the value of, your house.

Read what it says about the online tool:
"This service provides a guide to average market values of properties in a given locality and offers an indicative valuation band for properties depending on type, age and location. It does not provide market values for individual properties. The guidance is primarily based on the market value of properties sold since the year 2010 in the area, adjusted for average price movements in the interim.

This guidance will be helpful in the majority of cases but there are always properties in an area that differ from the average.

Self assessment requires property owners to honestly assess the market value of their own property. If a property is smaller or larger than the average for the area, is in a significantly poor state of repair or has exceptional or unique features, this will have to be factored into the assessment of the valuation band of the property."

I haven't seen the letter they send out but I expect it will say the same thing.

They're not trying to tell you how much your house is worth. They're telling you how much the average house in your area has sold for since 2010. If you don't self-assess and put a valuation on the house then this is the amount they'll come looking for.

This bit is actually untrue.

Huge swathes of countryside bathed in a shítty beige, where 6 bed mansions sit beside 2 bed bungalows.

Same in dublin - roads with 10 different types of houses all bunched under the same umbrella.

But, but you've to pay based on a valuation. I have nothing to compare against for my valuation - well then, pay someone with your own money so you can pay another tax.

Banjo String · 18-03-2013 08:59AM

barneystinson wrote: »

Yaaaaaaaaawn, you're boring the hole off me

Sorry about that.

How though?

barneystinson wrote: »

- explain to me so why anyone planning on subscribing to some spiel about legal challenges wouldn't be better off to pay the tax if they can afford to.

There will be quite a number of families who won't be able to afford to pay it, this tax has been designed in such a way that it does not take am individual's circumstances, nor ability to pay into consideration.

I don't know if you're being purposely difficult, or if its a row you're after, but in fairness it was you that originally said:

Originally Posted by barneystinson There's a difference between refusing to pay and simply not being able to.

Then tell me I'm boring your hole because I agreed with you?
I'm confused tbh.

Over 1.5 million people have €50 or less left over at the end of the month after their essential bills have been paid, according to a survey.

The latest 'What's Left' Tracker by the Irish League of Credit Unions also found that 90% of people have been negatively impacted by high energy costs and that 40% fear the impact of the property tax.

This is the eighth tracker that has been carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions since early 2011.

It shows the number of people with little or no disposable income is continuing to rise.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0117/363141-credit-union-what-left/

So, Barney.

What advice do you have to give to a family who do not have the means/funds to pay this tax?

And don't tell me their are none, because various reports show there are thousands/even millions that will be unable to pay.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/mortgage-arrears-extraordinary-1.1255037

Lots of them will be keen to receive your financial advice.

18-03-2013 11:00AM

SamHall wrote: »

Hey solas,

They have been calling for an abandonment of this tax now for a long time, (I'm under no illusion as to who it was signed us up to the current one btw) and I reckon a promise to scrap this tax will be the foundations of their election manifest.

Some nay-sayer's in this thread will try and tell us that they'll not scrap the tax, I don't agree though.

They're out in the cold ATM, and they don't like it one bit.

They're witnessing the lack of support for the current coalition, and they can see they broken promises, and an election campaign founded on lies, is not a wise move.

Like I say though, I think they're even worse than what we've got.

FF won't scrap this tax as the only alternative is to tax the higher paid to the hilt and they are NOT going to do that.

squod · 18-03-2013 11:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

FF won't scrap this tax as the only alternative is to tax the higher paid to the hilt and they are NOT going to do that.

Love this ''only alternative'', ''only show in town'' nonsense. If revenue put their backs into it the could have been inspecting the numerous fairgrounds operating cash only over the weekend, the innumerable cash only retail business and the numerically astonishing horse traders we seem to have.

clairefontaine · 18-03-2013 11:19AM

MadsL wrote: »

At the risk of getting my head bitten off, how is it someone who owns a house/apt is not be able to afford a €30-50 month tax?

Are we saying everyone is in NE and unable to sell? In which case is renting out the house and downsizing to a rented apt not the answer.

Do explain.

For now it is E50 or E100 a year, but that is just to collect the data, like a doomsday book.

Eventually, once they can do proper evaluations, you will see more property taxes.

But you won't see any material local improvements from them. They are going straight to Merkel.

Cypher_sounds · 18-03-2013 11:48AM

I'm glad I am not Mick.

mikemac1 · 18-03-2013 12:05PM

Where To closed their account?

Boooooooo

Phoebas · 18-03-2013 01:09PM

mfceiling wrote: »

This bit is actually untrue.

Huge swathes of countryside bathed in a shítty beige, where 6 bed mansions sit beside 2 bed bungalows.

Same in dublin - roads with 10 different types of houses all bunched under the same umbrella.

But, but you've to pay based on a valuation. I have nothing to compare against for my valuation - well then, pay someone with your own money so you can pay another tax.

My reading of the revenue documents is that if you make a reasonable, honest guess they will accept it. I can't imagine that they would be bothered challenging a self assessment that was out by one band (and the bands are pretty wide), but I suppose if you live in a six bed mansion in an area of mainly 2 bed bungalows, then you would hardly be expecting the revenue estimate to be very indicative anyway.

revenue wrote:

If you follow Revenue’s guidance honestly, we will accept your assessment and
your valuation will not be challenged. However, if you feel that the
guidance is not indicating a reasonable valuation for your property, you should
make your own assessment. Revenue will challenge cases where deliberate
under-valuation occurred.

revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

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