Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

clairefontaine · 16-03-2013 12:19PM

Coles wrote: »

Yes. If it was all just in Irish it would save a fortune. Imagine how quickly people would learn the language! Problem solved.

No one really wants that. Do you honestly think James Joyce, and all the writers who put Ireland on the map, would have gotten any attention if they wrote in Irish?

Ireland likes being in the anglophone world. I notice they are not emmigrating to the continent, they are emmigrating to other English speaking nations. And in droves too.

Wibbs · 16-03-2013 12:23PM

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Let's keep it polite.

Interesting given you've so far suggested people who don't learn Irish are a bunch of thick underclass types with equally uneducated parents and all have an inferiority complex about their culture. You really don't get irony.

In 1871 only 25% of French people spoke French.

As their first language. IIRC at the time of the French Revolution over half spoke French. It gets even more bogus when one considers French colonies in the Americas and elsewhere who spoke French at the time and continue to do so today. Where did the French speaking Canadians get the language from if "almost nobody spoke it"?

Yes and that is precisely why there was a British colonial policy to exterminate our language. We don't need that policy anymore, do we?

Let's take your French example then(and again the irony is delish). Let's imagine you are correct and that "200 years ago almost nobody spoke the language". This clearly implies French was then subsequently imposed on all those different languages and cultures. Why did that one get to be the "French cultural language then". I mean if almost nobody spoke it, it sounds like a small "colonial policy" to "exterminate" the other languages. Your example really doesn't work out for your argument now, does it?

nomnomnom · 16-03-2013 12:27PM

I tried many times to converse with Gardai in my local Gaeltacht area and was assaulted twice for 'being a cheeky wee ****' . I was'nt being cheeky , I just wanted to be dealt with in my first and national language.

Please stop running down Irish, to many of us it is our primary language and we deserve to be able to deal in business, deal with the judicial system, converse with the Gardai and anything else we need to do through Irish.

I dont want Irish shoved down everyones throat but anyone who has a job where they must deal with the public in Gaeltacht areas should have a grasp of Gaelic.

And to all you Gaelic haters, best of luck to you all as your kids grow up to be genital crab infested, single digit IQ, American idol wannabee twats thanks to UK and US culture via TV.

You dont need to love Irish but for the love of feck dont hate it just because you dont speak it.

Tir gan teanga tir gan anam a chairde.

nomnomnom · 16-03-2013 12:30PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

No one really wants that. Do you honestly think James Joyce, and all the writers who put Ireland on the map, would have gotten any attention if they wrote in Irish?

Ireland likes being in the anglophone world. I notice they are not emmigrating to the continent, they are emmigrating to other English speaking nations. And in droves too.

Thats because Irish communities exist in those countries...they exist there because of forced emigration ('convicts' sent to Australia, the starving fleeing to the USA, 'Paddies' forced to seek work in the UK ((the nearest country and the one to blame for the near death of our national language)) to feed families back home).

anirishlad · 16-03-2013 12:30PM

Coles wrote: »

No we haven't. Irish is flourishing in the Gaelscoileanna and the children are achieving better overall educational results in that system. Parents who adopt a hostile ATTITUDE towards the language put their children at a significant disadvantage. That's their choice and ultimately we'll end up with a subculture of chavs who hate Irish, innit. But they love sumfink like Celebrites Ballroom Dancing on Ice and watching Fulham v Man U on SKYSports Extra Plus Plus.

That's because people who do the leaving in Irish get a 10% bonus.

Coles · 16-03-2013 12:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's imagine you are correct and that "200 years ago almost nobody spoke the language". This clearly implies French was then subsequently imposed on all those different languages and cultures. Why did that one get to be the "French cultural language then". I mean if almost nobody spoke it, it sounds like a small "colonial policy" to "exterminate" the other languages. Your example really doesn't work out for your argument now, does it?

My point is merely that a language can be adopted if the policy is enforced. And that the speaking of a distinct language has a unifying impact on a Nation.

And it's self evident that someone is 'thick'/ignorant/moronic if they learn a language for 14 years and still can't speak a word of it! What other evidence could possibly be needed! Seriously?

Coles · 16-03-2013 12:37PM

anirishlad wrote: »

That's because people who do the leaving in Irish get a 10% bonus.

So what's the clever thing to do, eh? Perhaps you should encourage the kids to make a bit of extra effort, no? A positive ATTITUDE would help, wouldn't it?

krudler · 16-03-2013 12:40PM

Coles wrote: »

My point is merely that a language can be adopted if the policy is enforced. And that the speaking of a distinct language has a unifying impact on a Nation.

And it's self evident that someone is 'thick'/ignorant/moronic if they learn a language for 14 years and still can't speak a word of it! What other evidence could possibly be needed! Seriously?

I learnt Irish for years in school and I can assure you I'm neither thick, ignorant or moronic, I know more French and did that for three years. because it's taught better and our French teacher engaged us in conversations not teaching us pigeon phrases to fit an exact template of stuff you need to say to pass an exam. I'd love to be able to speak fluent Irish, but it has no use outside a small part of the country and it horribly taught in schools, the entire curriculum needs to be overhauled, not these "awareness" campaigns from buffoon Irish speaking celebrities.

Coles · 16-03-2013 12:40PM

And I'm not opposed to the English language, it just doesn't need to be compulsory in our school system. If people want to learn it let them do it in their spare time, not at my expense. There are people dying on trolleys and we just can't can't afford it.

Iwasfrozen · 16-03-2013 12:42PM

Coles wrote: »

So what's the clever thing to do, eh? Perhaps you should encourage the kids to make a bit of extra effort, no? A positive ATTITUDE would help, wouldn't it?

I think you need to change your attitude. Your desire to force your language on an unwilling cultural group is, dare I say it, rather colonial.

Wibbs · 16-03-2013 12:42PM

Coles wrote: »

No we haven't. Irish is flourishing in the Gaelscoileanna and the children are achieving better overall educational results in that system.

And it's not down to the language. It could be any language. It's down to smaller classes, more involved teachers and parents. with a side order of bilingualism. Private fee paying schools also tend to do better than state schools and the kids are almost exclusively schooled as Bearla. try again. Of course Irish is flourishing in Gaelscoils. Well duh. However out of 4000 schools in the country there are so far only 400 Gaelscoils. Will that increase? Maybe, maybe not. The peak growth seems to have hit in the mid noughties. Seemed to mirror the oul Celtic tiger. When there are significantly more secondary and third level schools in the medium of Irish will much overall difference be seen. Gaelscoils are not a new thing. Back in the 40's and 50's there were similar, yet the language still contracted.

Parents who adopt a hostile ATTITUDE towards the language put their children at a significant disadvantage. That's their choice and ultimately we'll end up with a subculture of chavs who hate Irish, innit. But they love sumfink like Celebrites Ballroom Dancing on Ice and watching Fulham v Man U on SKYSports Extra Plus Plus.

Back with the English speakers are underclass types again. Chavs no less. Talk about being completely blinkered.

nomnomnom wrote:

I tried many times to converse with Gardai in my local Gaeltacht area and was assaulted twice for 'being a cheeky wee ****' . I was'nt being cheeky , I just wanted to be dealt with in my first and national language.

First off being assaulted is well out of order. However it may be your first language, but it's not the first language of the vast majority of the Irish people and hasn't been for at least 150 years.

I dont want Irish shoved down everyones throat but anyone who has a job where they must deal with the public in Gaeltacht areas should have a grasp of Gaelic.

I would agree with this. When in Rome and all.

And to all you Gaelic haters, best of luck to you all as your kids grow up to be genital crab infested, single digit IQ, American idol wannabee twats thanks to UK and US culture via TV.

And this is where the insults towards the rest of your fellow countrymen and women kick off again and it'll get you nowhere and will make people even more antagonistic regarding the language. If I were to suggest that Irish speakers are a bunch of parochial, insular and backward walnut faced boggers I'd be rightfully hopped on, because it would be an utter nonsense. Even the most rabid of the "irish is dead/useless" haven't come out with anything approaching that, yet in the last two pages we have two in the pro language camp accuse the majority of Irish people of being uneducated UK/US influenced chavs, even "genital crab infested, single digit IQ, American idol wannabee twats". Nice. An on the fence passer by would likely think why in God's name would I want to be associated with that kind of daftness.

Tir gan teanga tir gan anam a chairde.

Tell that to the Americans, North and South. Tell that to the Australians, much of Africa, the list is long. Indeed according to Coles, you could also tell that to the French.

Coles · 16-03-2013 12:44PM

krudler wrote: »

I learnt Irish for years in school and I can assure you I'm neither thick, ignorant or moronic, I know more French and did that for three years. because it's taught better and our French teacher engaged us in conversations not teaching us pigeon phrases to fit an exact template of stuff you need to say to pass an exam.

Are you blaming the educational system, the curriculum, or your teacher? The curriculum and education system works for other languages so that's unlikely to be the problem, right? I would have assumed you had about 6 Irish teachers over that period, no? Were they all to blame? Couldn't be them. So what's left? hmmmm.....:rolleyes:

Wibbs · 16-03-2013 12:50PM

Coles wrote: »

My point is merely that a language can be adopted if the policy is enforced. And that the speaking of a distinct language has a unifying impact on a Nation.

Ignoring my point re the imposition of a language though.

And it's self evident that someone is 'thick'/ignorant/moronic if they learn a language for 14 years and still can't speak a word of it! What other evidence could possibly be needed! Seriously?

You're missing the single most obvious reason; they quite simply don't see it as culturally relevant to them and they don't wish to learn it. A near century of compulsion of Irish in education(and many careers) and yet the language has contracted massively, including in the Gaeltachts BTW. The latter have shrunk significantly in the last 100 years. There were far more Irish speakers in 1900 when the British were in power, than there are now with us in power.

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:00PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Private fee paying schools also tend to do better than state schools and the kids are almost exclusively schooled as Bearla. try again.

Private schools do well because of the greater resources. It's interesting that learning in Irish bridges the resource gap, no?

Of course Irish is flourishing in Gaelscoils. Well duh.

It's not just Irish! English too! Better achievements in all subjects.

However out of 4000 schools in the country there are so far only 400 Gaelscoils. Will that increase? Maybe, maybe not. The peak growth seems to have hit in the mid noughties. Seemed to mirror the oul Celtic tiger. When there are significantly more secondary and third level schools in the medium of Irish will much overall difference be seen. Gaelscoils are not a new thing. Back in the 40's and 50's there were similar, yet the language still contracted.

Meanwhile, in the real world...

Back with the English speakers are underclass types again. Chavs no less. Talk about being completely blinkered.

It's happening, innit?

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:02PM

Wibbs wrote: »

You're missing the single most obvious reason; they quite simply don't see it as culturally relevant to them and they don't wish to learn it.

A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E

krudler · 16-03-2013 01:03PM

Coles wrote: »

Are you blaming the educational system, the curriculum, or your teacher? The curriculum and education system works for other languages so that's unlikely to be the problem, right? I would have assumed you had about 6 Irish teachers over that period, no? Were they all to blame? Couldn't be them. So what's left? hmmmm.....:rolleyes:

The curriculum for Irish and French aren't the same, you don't spend any time in a French class learning ancient French poetry, or we didn't anyway, we engaged in conversations and watched French movies to hear how the language was utilised in actual conversations, not "remember this sentence cos they'll ask you it in the Irish oral". Pigeon phrases and learning sentences off by heart without knowing what their context or meaning are is not how you learn a language properly.

You can drop the condescension as well it just comes across as childish. Or quite why "ignorant" non-Irish speakers all talk with an East London chav accent, do you even realise what country you're referring to? I don't think I've ever heard an Irish person pronounce "innit" like that.

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:03PM

Wibbs wrote: »

You're missing the single most obvious reason; they quite simply don't see it as culturally relevant to them and they don't wish to learn it.

A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:06PM

krudler wrote: »

The curriculum for Irish and French aren't the same, you don't spend any time in a French class learning ancient French poetry, or we didn't anyway, we engaged in conversations and watched French movies to hear how the language was utilised in actual conversations, not "remember this sentence cos they'll ask you it in the Irish oral". Pigeon phrases and learning sentences off by heart without knowing what their context or meaning are is not how you learn a language properly.

Did you not use it in conversations? Talk to each other, maybe? Discuss stuff? Have a bit of a laugh with it? And there's no shortage of films and radio stuff if you want to immerse yourself in it.

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:07PM

krudler wrote: »

Or quite why "ignorant" non-Irish speakers all talk with an East London chav accent, do you even realise what country you're referring to? I don't think I've ever heard an Irish person pronounce "innit" like that.

They will. It's a cultural choice.

krudler · 16-03-2013 01:08PM

Coles wrote: »

Did you not use it in conversations? Talk to each other, maybe? Discuss stuff? Have a bit of a laugh with it? And there's no shortage of films and radio stuff if you want to immerse yourself in it.

Nope, was learn this phrase, read this poem. I'd wager most Irish adults can barely string a sentence of basic Irish together even though we all did it for years, we must be an entire country of thickos according to your good self? I never thought I'd need French either, yet was in Paris and plenty of signs and phrases still made sense because I could recall their meanings even in basic terms, so attitude has nothing to do with it.

LordSutch · 16-03-2013 01:11PM

Coles wrote: »

Parents who adopt a hostile ATTITUDE towards the language put their children at a significant disadvantage. That's their choice and ultimately we'll end up with a subculture of chavs who hate Irish, innit. But they love sumfink like Celebrites Ballroom Dancing on Ice and watching Fulham v Man U on SKYSports Extra Plus Plus.

A significant disadvantage towards speaking Irish for sure, and I would say as parents that we are indifferent towards our kids learning Irish, but they will have to do Irish lessons in school so that's that, and they will get by . . . but I certainly wouldn't expect them to be fluent in Irish by the time they leave school. German or French hopefully, but Irish, nah, can't see the point really.

Not sure they will speak Cockney either!

Jijsaw · 16-03-2013 01:13PM

Irish is not "dead". Many people (including myself) speak it. The only problem being the way it is taught:
Why is it compulsory? I am in 3rd year doing honours Irish and if you were to separate the amount of people who actually wanted to learn Irish instead of the ones being forced to; you would have 4 people out of a class of 25.
The way Irish is taught is ridiculous, "hey lets not teach them how to converse in day to day language, lets make them learn stories and poems from 10s of years ago, you know where some of the words are not used today. We can make them learns themes and emotions on the works of Doughlas de hÍde be great because they ARE going to use that in later life

And people wonder why grades in Irish and people taking HL Irish are getting lower :-/

Iwasfrozen · 16-03-2013 01:20PM

Jijsaw wrote: »

Irish is not "dead". Many people (including myself) speak it. The only problem being the way it is taught:
Why is it compulsory? I am in 3rd year doing honours Irish and if you were to separate the amount of people who actually wanted to learn Irish instead of the ones being forced to; you would have 4 people out of a class of 25.
The way Irish is taught is ridiculous, "hey lets not teach them how to converse in day to day language, lets make them learn stories and poems from 10s of years ago, you know where some of the words are not used today. We can make them learns themes and emotions on the works of Doughlas de hÍde be great because they ARE going to use that in later life

And people wonder why grades in Irish and people taking HL Irish are getting lower :-/

And here in we get to the kernel of the issue, the government doesn't care about you or any other student. The curriculum is designed around what's best for the powerful irish language teachers lobby. Students like you who have no voice are easy targets.

LordSutch · 16-03-2013 01:20PM

Jijsaw wrote: »

The only problem being the way it is taught:
Why is it compulsory? I am in 3rd year doing honours Irish and if you were to separate the amount of people who actually wanted to learn Irish instead of the ones being forced to; you would have 4 people out of a class of 25.
The way Irish is taught is ridiculous, "hey lets not teach them how to converse in day to day language, lets make them learn stories and poems from 10s of years ago, you know where some of the words are not used today. We can make them learns themes and emotions on the works of Doughlas de hÍde be great because they ARE going to use that in later life

And the elephant in the room is > Why is the teaching of Irish still so bad after it was introduced eight decades ago?

Coles · 16-03-2013 01:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And here in we get to the kernel of the issue, the government doesn't care about you or any other student. The curriculum is designed around what's best for the powerful irish language teachers lobby. Students like you who have no voice are easy targets.

Could you explain this comment.

Iwasfrozen · 16-03-2013 01:33PM

Coles wrote: »

Could you explain this comment.

What needs explained? When Enda Kenny wanted to make Irish optional he was shouted down by 200 self serving students. Source.

And here's another one that shows up the vested interests of the gaeltacht areas. Source. No concern for the language there either. Only for their own pocket.

carpejugulum · 16-03-2013 02:20PM

It must be nice to force your hobby down everyone's throat and make them pay for it.
If you are a dick that is.

Wibbs · 16-03-2013 02:24PM

Coles wrote: »

Private schools do well because of the greater resources. It's interesting that learning in Irish bridges the resource gap, no?

No actually. Its got nada to do with learning in Irish. The bilingual component has an effect, but it could be any language. Again you avoided my points. Compared to state schools the Irish schools have smaller classes, tend to have more active and engaged parents and teachers.

Meanwhile, in the real world...

Oh sorry, you're right I was wrong, according to that graph its 200 odd Gaelscoileanna out of 4000, not 400 like I originally said. My mistake. And I was correct in that it correlated well with the Celtic Tiger years. Seems to have plateaued with it too.

It's happening, innit?

The "innit" stuff is starting to look really silly at this stage.

Coles wrote: »

A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E

And? Where does this attitude come from? Perfidious Albion is gone for 100 years so we can't still be whining on about them surely? As I pointed out earlier when the Irish went to all corners of the globe they dropped the language like a brick when they did so and pretty damn quickly too. Irish people = 2nd largest ethnic group in the US of A, Irish language = 76th spoken language in the US of A. And that was well beyond the reach of London and a huge proportion of those folks came from Irish speaking areas in the first place.

Did you not use it in conversations? Talk to each other, maybe? Discuss stuff? Have a bit of a laugh with it?

No. 1) it wasn't relevant to me or my peers, it was a foreign language to us 2) hard to have a conversation with the tools we were given because it was taught with the odd expectation that we knew it, or it was natural to us. Seems not a lot has changed in subsequent years. Would I learn it now? No. Again number 1 above still largely applies. Plus though I am glad it's still around, in my experience with the odd and thankful exceptions those I have met in life who were the strident Gaelgoiri I wouldn't want to have an extended conversation with anyway. In any language.

opti0nal · 16-03-2013 02:37PM

Coles wrote: »

there was a British colonial policy to exterminate our language. We don't need that policy anymore, do we?

What policy? Give details.

English became our language because that is what the people of Ireland wanted.

WolfForager · 16-03-2013 02:39PM

Just stopping off to say: If you get stopped by a Gard but are adamant that you will only speak Irish because "you have the right", even though you also speak English, then you are a prick. Simple as.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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