revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

Chips Lovell · 14-03-2013 04:55PM

SamHall wrote: »

Here's a question Seamus, what if someone buys a house next month, will they pay stamp duty, then property Tax in the summer?

They don't, providing they're buying a new house or are a first time buyer.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 04:57PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

They don't.

Don't what?

Stamp duty, or property Tax?

Chips Lovell · 14-03-2013 04:58PM

Property Tax

seamus · 14-03-2013 04:58PM

SamHall wrote: »

What will it rise to post 2016 Seamus?

What relevance does that have? Who ever heard of a tax which never changes? Did they ever claim that this tax would never increase, ever?

Here's a question Seamus, what if someone buys a new house next month, will they pay stamp duty, then property Tax in the summer?

That depends. If they're a first time buyer or the house is a new build, they will be exempt from the LPT.

Otherwise, if they purchase before 1st May, then yes they will be liable for the half year.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 05:10PM

seamus wrote: »

What relevance does that have? Who ever heard of a tax which never changes? Did they ever claim that this tax would never increase, ever?

It might have a very severe relevance to the hundred odd thousand currently in mortgage arrears, or to the families who've decided that rather than 'break the law' and even though they're already at the pin of their collar financially, they'll pay this tax this year, then when it goes up buy God knows what after 2016, and they cannot pay the tax, I'm asking you to suggest to me what that family then gives up or sacrifices to pay the tax?
With a car, you can down size/do without the car etc etc.

Will the family who cannot pay, neglect a mortgage payment, medicinal bills, clothing for the kids, food on the table?

They should do without, just so FG get their pound of flesh?

seamus wrote: »

That depends. If they're a first time buyer or the house is a new build, they will be exempt from the LPT.

Otherwise, if they purchase before 1st May, then yes they will be liable for the half year.

Seems legit.

I'll pay when they refund my stamp duty. Not before.

seamus · 14-03-2013 05:15PM

Pointless rhetoric SamHall, hot air worthy of the Dáil. You're not even attempting to have anything that looks like a discussion about this.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 05:23PM

seamus wrote: »

Pointless rhetoric SamHall, hot air worthy of the Dáil. You're not even attempting to have anything that looks like a discussion about this.

Complete and utter poppy cock Seamus.

I asked you completely reasonable questions, you've dodged them and not even attempted to answer them (like lots more of the pro tax on this thread beforehand)

You can't answer simply because you can't fathom what it would be like to be in that position.

Simple as that.

seamus · 14-03-2013 05:24PM

SamHall wrote: »

I asked you completely reasonable questions, you've dodged them and not even attempted to answer them

I don't see any questions in your post.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 05:30PM

seamus wrote: »

I don't see any questions in your post.

Ok.

How you missed two questions is beyond me tbh, but here you go.

It might have a very severe relevance to the hundred odd thousand currently in mortgage arrears, or to the families who've decided that rather than 'break the law' and even though they're already at the pin of their collar financially, they'll pay this tax this year, then when it goes up buy God knows what after 2016, and they cannot pay the tax, I'm asking you to suggest to me what that family then gives up or sacrifices to pay the tax? With a car, you can down size/do without the car etc etc.

Then i asked:

Will the family who cannot pay, neglect a mortgage payment, medicinal bills, clothing for the kids, food on the table?

Don't feel obliged to answer, but don't imply that

You're not even attempting to have anything that looks like a discussion

I'm being polite, and asking perfectly reasonable and legitimate questions, what more do you need from me in a 'discussion' tbh?

seamus · 14-03-2013 05:39PM

What will the family do? That depends on the family. Some will pay it no problem, some will be unable to pay it, the vast majority in the middle will figure it out. It's a meaningless question with no actual answer and therefore does nothing to further the discussion.

What do you suggest they tax instead of property? Can you give me an example of a stable tax which can bring in the same income as the LPT but which is guaranteed to not put any families at risk?

Chips Lovell · 14-03-2013 05:41PM

People on low incomes or in mortgage difficulties can apply for a deferral.

tayto lover · 14-03-2013 05:45PM

seamus wrote: »

What will the family do? That depends on the family. Some will pay it no problem, some will be unable to pay it, the vast majority in the middle will figure it out. It's a meaningless question with no actual answer.

What do you suggest they tax instead of property? Can you give me an example of a stable tax which can bring in the same income as the LPT but which is guaranteed to not put any families at risk?

Maybe if they had stuck to even a wee bit of their 5 Point Plan.
Closing the useless fcuking Seanad and then go a wee bit further i.e. halve the number of T.D.'s.

seamus · 14-03-2013 05:47PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe if they had stuck to even a wee bit of their 5 Point Plan.
Closing the useless fcuking Seanad and then go a wee bit further i.e. halve the number of T.D.'s.

Will that save as much money as the LPT is meant to bring in?

tayto lover · 14-03-2013 05:49PM

seamus wrote: »

Will that save as much money as the LPT is meant to bring in?

It would make a lot of people a bit happier trying to pay it.

There is no point going over old ground again. People have suggested many ways and alternatives to Property Tax but they fall on deaf ears.
The party line just has to be towed it seems.

seamus · 14-03-2013 05:53PM

tayto lover wrote: »

It would make a lot of people a bit happier trying to pay it.

So, no, is your answer.

Any other suggestions?

I don't disagree that the members of the Dáil need to massively reduce their salaries and reform the houses.

But I don't believe that this gives me any ethical perogative to refuse to pay my taxes.

tayto lover · 14-03-2013 05:57PM

seamus wrote: »

So, no, is your answer.

Any other suggestions?

I don't disagree that the members of the Dáil need to massively reduce their salaries and reform the houses.

But I don't believe that this gives me any ethical perogative to refuse to pay my taxes.

If you go to the old Property Tax thread yo will see many examples from many people of how to raise just as much as the PT will bring in.

seamus · 14-03-2013 06:09PM

tayto lover wrote: »

If you go to the old Property Tax thread yo will see many examples from many people of how to raise just as much as the PT will bring in.

And these are all stable forms of taxation which will not cause any family to have to suffer economic hardship?

tayto lover · 14-03-2013 06:12PM

seamus wrote: »

And these are all stable forms of taxation which will not cause any family to have to suffer economic hardship?

I believe many of them are.

bgrizzley · 14-03-2013 06:14PM

seamus wrote: »

And these are all stable forms of taxation which will not cause any family to have to suffer economic hardship?

lpt will cause some familys to suffer economic hardship...

...and imho many families.

seamus · 14-03-2013 06:14PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I believe many of them are.

Right. Any reason why you haven't gone to the government with details on how they can access this free money?

Rather than have me trawl through hundreds of posts to find something which may not even exist, care to venture even a hint at one of these taxes?

lpt will cause some familys to suffer economic hardship...

Yep, sure will. Find me a significant source of tax income that won't.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 06:18PM

Why say you didn't see any questions in my post though? They weren't cryptic/hidden.

Anyway, water under the bridge.

There already have been tonnes of taxation suggestions, alternative to a property tax.

I'm going to go for this one though.

An actual council tax/rates system like in the UK.

Hell, it might even bring in more than a property tax, and the councils could start to provide services to the public with the monies collected. (it would also target tenants)

So, stable tax income, that holds councils accountable to services provided/money paid to them.

I see no problems? Bar the fact that rates and council tax demand a service provided, which results on a few Less bills per year for the homeowner.

FG's lpt system is just money to revenue for nothing in return. Which gives most people the illusion that the cash collected might actually be diverted to something, or someone else.

For the record, I'd pay more than what's being asked from me, from this tax. (just for clarity)

There's your stable taxation suggestion right there.

bgrizzley · 14-03-2013 06:18PM

seamus wrote: »

Right. Any reason why you haven't gone to the government with details on how they can access this free money?

Rather than have me trawl through hundreds of posts to find something which may not even exist, care to venture even a hint at one of these taxes?

Yep, sure will. Find me a significant source of tax income that won't.

Income tax.

seamus · 14-03-2013 06:25PM

SamHall wrote: »

An actual council tax/rates system like in the UK.

As far as I can see, the UK council tax system works pretty much the same way as our one, with the major difference being that local councils set their own rates rather than a blanket national rate.

Which I agree is the best way to do it, but to transpose to Ireland requires relatively large reform of the way the country's finances work and I don't believe would have been possible to implement in two years as per our troika agreement.

I understand that the medium-term goal is to move to this kind of system.

bgrizzley wrote: »

Income tax.

...is stable and doesn't cause people to suffer economic hardship?

tayto lover · 14-03-2013 06:28PM

seamus wrote: »

Right. Any reason why you haven't gone to the government with details on how they can access this free money?

Rather than have me trawl through hundreds of posts to find something which may not even exist, care to venture even a hint at one of these taxes?

Yep, sure will. Find me a tax that won't.

People have suggested many things which would help and not many of them were taxes. We seem obsessed with taxes in this country of late.

1.Cut Free Legal Aid except for those found not guilty. Make criminals pay from their dole or the families of young offenders pay.
2. Cut the number in prison except for those who are too dangerous to be out. Make the others work under supervision doing jobs that the council are not doing i.e. cleaning off graffiti, filling pot holes neglected by the council etc. This would help make up for the work neglected due to the shortfall from retirements.
3. Make the career dole merchants (not those genuinely out of work) do similar jobs like gritting footpaths in bad weather (the council only do the roads anyway)
4. Rise the tax on alcohol and cigarettes (Too many using the health care system for self-inflicted illnesses.)
5. Rise in Corporate Tax by 2% -- they won't flee the country.
6. Tax the super-rich a bit. It's patriotic to pay something and to pay feck all is not good.
7. Close the Seanad and half the Dail numbers. Too many wasters.
8 Cut T.D.'s expenses as there are far too many.

Off the top of my head these are just a few. Only 3 taxes and these don't effect those already struggling.

seamus · 14-03-2013 06:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Only 3 taxes and these don't effect those already struggling.

I disagree. All 3 have the potential to massively affect those struggling, especially increased taxes on cigs and alcohol. And none of these suggestions are a form of stable taxation.

Tisserand · 14-03-2013 06:36PM

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. All 3 have the potential to massively affect those struggling, especially increased taxes on cigs and alcohol. And none of these suggestions are a form of stable taxation.

I'm out of work, was struggling, gave up cigarettes and alcohol, now I manage - not comfortably but enough to pay all bills and taxes due.

flutered · 14-03-2013 06:36PM

get rid of the below cost selling of drink, problem solved, as it would bring in a lot more than this tax which will cruxify at least two thirds of the population, but they have not the balls to take on the multiples.

Banjo String · 14-03-2013 06:39PM

seamus wrote: »

As far as I can see, the UK council tax system works pretty much the same way as our one, with the major difference being that local councils set their own rates rather than a blanket national rate.

Which I agree is the best way to do it, but to transpose to Ireland requires relatively large reform of the way the country's finances work and I don't believe would have been possible to implement in two years as per our troika agreement.

I understand that the medium-term goal is to move to this kind of system.

...is stable and doesn't cause people to suffer economic hardship?

You're in agreement that services should be provided?

bgrizzley · 14-03-2013 06:51PM

seamus wrote: »

As far as I can see, the UK council tax system works pretty much the same way as our one, with the major difference being that local councils set their own rates rather than a blanket national rate.

Which I agree is the best way to do it, but to transpose to Ireland requires relatively large reform of the way the country's finances work and I don't believe would have been possible to implement in two years as per our troika agreement.

I understand that the medium-term goal is to move to this kind of system.

...is stable and doesn't cause people to suffer economic hardship?

i never said stable, i just commented that the LPT was going to hurt families. im more worried abnout hungry children than stability.

As for economic hardship , maybe if you consider luxuries economic hardship but i cant see how otherwise.
if i was off sick for 12 months, i wouldnt have to pay income tax. how would i fare out in the same situation with property tax as it stands? defer it to add to my spiraling mortgage/CCs/debts while i was sick? yeah right...

heartseeker · 14-03-2013 06:57PM

seamus wrote: »

They actually work very quickly when they owe you money. Last two tax returns we were due a refund and I had the cheque in my hand in less than two weeks.

Seamus I think the dailymail would more than likely be after your services for doing such a good pr job on behalf of the revenue.:P Worth your weight in gold I'm sensing a payrise for you or a St.Paddys day junket to New York.Whats your preference?

revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

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