Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Chips Lovell · 13-03-2013 12:27PM

I used to think the way Irish was thought was part of the problem, but now I'm not so sure. For example, I had a good Irish teacher in school, had decent spoken Irish by the time I did my Leaving and got a high grade. My German teacher was awful and it was my worst grade in my Leaving. Fast forward to now and I have waaay better German than I do Irish. Why? Well, German is useful to me, so I've found myself having to dust it off and try use it from time to time. Irish on the other hand isn't.

In addition, kids aren't stupid. They know well that Irish has no practical use for them once they walk out of the exam hall, so you can't be surprised that a lot of them won't make the effort.

An Coilean · 13-03-2013 12:29PM

guppy wrote: »

I work in the public sector, every document needs to be translated to Irish.

Nonsense, You are either lying or compleatly ignorent of the legislation.

An Coilean · 13-03-2013 12:33PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

mod:
This is an english language discussion forum.

If you post in Irish please also provide an English translation.

No thanks.

syklops · 13-03-2013 12:40PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anyone have any idea of what the cost of the Irish language to the state is, all up? I reckon we could leave teacher salaries out of that as the classes would have to be replaced. It would be a zero-sum situation.

It just seems like people are going against all the wrong targets when they use the Haughey-ism about belt-tightening. We took it up the bum with regards to bank bailouts but we'll not stand for the relatively minuscule amounts the easy targets are costing us.

Primetime did a segment on this last night. The cost to the tax payer comes in at around 50 million euro per year. Thats down from 2008 when it was 98 million.

anncoates wrote: »

I was born in England and it always makes me sad that so many people here are so dismissive of the native language of their country

Fair enough if people don't have an interest but the sheer hatred for it is baffling.

In my primary school we did Irish for 3 hours, an hour of religion and the last 90 minutes or so on maths and English. There were some days when we did Irish all day. I loved English and I loved maths. I wonder if my had had been equally shared subject-wise would I have had a different perception of my miserable school days. I was over the moon when I went to secondary school and found I only had to spend 5 hours a week on Irish. After 8 years of primary schooling I spent 60% of it learning a language I could not speak, and had no use for. Cold monday mornings spent having the mo cunealeach(i dont know how to spell it) drilled into you. The hatred for it is not baffling if you have been through it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-03-2013 12:47PM

An Coilean wrote: »

No thanks.

So, wihtout trying to sound like a backseat moderator, why should you demand that you be given informatino in two langauges, but yourself refuse to give others information in two languages...?

syklops · 13-03-2013 12:50PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't speak Irish, and have the same experience of school Irish as many on here.

However, I disagree that it should not be a mantatory language. It is part of our culture,

"its part of our culture", Im so sick of hearing that as an excuse. Right now, our culture is spending 14 years learning a language we can't speak. Thats our culture, and it is shameful.

In Ukraine they decided they wanted to speak Ukranian instead of Russian, and it was an overnight swap. One day they were speaking Russian, the next they were speaking Ukranian. Job done. No 50 million a year on fluff.

Dionysius2 · 13-03-2013 12:52PM

Confab wrote: »

It says nothing about intelligence, but it says a lot about the perceived usefulness of the Irish language. You were also taught algebra for six years, how much of that do you remember? Yet algebra is far more useful than Irish.

One of the main problems with the Irish language is the snobbery associated with users of it. Compare that with Wales, where Welsh s used openly and without rancour. Why? Because there's no cadre of snobs and teachers, noses high in the air declaiming from pedestals about the superiority of 'their' language.

I managed to get the rudiments of Swedish in under two years, and ten years later with no intervening use of the language I can still make myself understood. What does that say about how Irish is taught? Simple. It says that if you're not interested in a language you won't learn it, and to be interested in a language it needs to be useful to most people. Irish is not useful to most people, therefore we're not interested in it.

Candidly, I agree and have no difficulty in seeing the logic in what you say. That we got the teaching of Irish gloriously wrong from the foundation of the state is now very apparent to many people but the die hards will never admit to that. The core mistake was to seek total restoration of the language a la Eamon De Valera's ideology etc and to put in place a language restoration model of the most naive, unimaginative and draconian kind......and then to continue this blindly decade upon decade without the honest critical review that would have shown it to be wasteful and ineffective which it clearly was.

One life experience above all else brought home to me the complete stupidity of our Irish language restoration policy and practice in the last century. I have two sets of grandchildren in mixed nationality marriages and in both cases the children were completely bilingual BEFORE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL ! I have stared in awe at those kids conscious of my 9 years of forced Irish and the total failure thereof in educational terms.

The Irish are often lauded for their gritty determination, courage in the face of adversity, irrepressible spirit, but imo we do not score well in the 'savvy' department. Dev's stoicism in the end served us very badly indeed.

LordSutch · 13-03-2013 01:09PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't speak Irish, and have the same experience of school Irish as many on here.

However, I disagree that it should not be a mantatory language. It is part of our culture, a part we should be proud of. The fact that it is not 'useful' in international business, surely that is not the only reason for learning?

Its one aspect to our culture, one small aspect.

Of course officially its one of the founding rocks of the State, and we should all speak it, but . . . . .

An Coilean · 13-03-2013 01:14PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So, wihtout trying to sound like a backseat moderator, why should you demand that you be given informatino in two langauges, but yourself refuse to give others information in two languages...?

Oh 'I'm perfectally happy to use one language as long as I am allowed to choose which language I use. I have no problem with others using their choice of language as long as my choice is respected.

syklops · 13-03-2013 01:24PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Oh 'I'm perfectally happy to use one language as long as I am allowed to choose which language I use. I have no problem with others using their choice of language as long as my choice is respected.

Well unfortunately this is an english language forum so you don't get to choose which language you post in.

123balltv · 13-03-2013 01:34PM

Get rid :cool: this is an English speaking country.

An Coilean · 13-03-2013 01:44PM

syklops wrote: »

Well unfortunately this is an english language forum so you don't get to choose which language you post in.

Ni ghlacaim, is feidir leo cosc a chur orm ma ta siad ag iarradh an riail sin a chur i bhfeidhm.

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 01:53PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ni ghlacaim, is feidir leo cosc a chur orm ma ta siad ag iarradh an riail sin a chur i bhfeidhm.

Banned.

Sigh.

syklops · 13-03-2013 02:00PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ni ghlacaim, is feidir leo cosc a chur orm ma ta siad ag iarradh an riail sin a chur i bhfeidhm.

Thanks to google translate this means:

I don't accept, they can ban me if they have been asked to implement this rule.

And out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

irishdude11 · 13-03-2013 02:29PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't speak Irish, and have the same experience of school Irish as many on here.

However, I disagree that it should not be a mantatory language. It is part of our culture, a part we should be proud of. The fact that it is not 'useful' in international business, surely that is not the only reason for learning?

My parents don't speak Irish. My grandparents didn't speak it, their parents didn't, and so on....This is on both sides of the family. This is the situation with 95% or so of the population. This is the way it has been since the decline in the language about 150 years ago. So it is not a part of my culture or my family's culture apart, apart from having it forced on us in school if you want to count that as culture.

anncoates · 13-03-2013 02:32PM

who the fug wrote: »

I just love this phrase, right up their with The Emergency and The Troubles

It was a tongue in cheek phrase. Of course, if you think my euphemistic reference to the position of Irish, which while being in obvious need of reform, is comparable in its seriousness to conflict and war, that's your concern.

I actually said it as somebody who hates nationalism, religion and people that are overly sanctimonious about Irish as well as being as somebody that wasn't born here. I just think it's sad to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Also equally sad is the reduction of everything educational and/or of cultural worth to what looks good on a CV. I have a decently remunerated professional job and am educated to masters level but I still see much worth in education and cultural appreciation for its own sake, including the language we used for much of our history. Not everything is a bean-counting exercise.

SEPT 23 1989 · 13-03-2013 02:37PM

irishdude11 wrote: »

My parents don't speak Irish. My grandparents didn't speak it, their parents didn't, and so on....This is on both sides of the family. This is the situation with 95% or so of the population. This is the way it has been since the decline in the language about 150 years ago. So it is not a part of my culture or my family's culture apart, apart from having it forced on us in school if you want to count that as culture.

I have never heard anyone having a conversation in Irish outside the classroom

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 02:40PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I have never heard anyone having a conversation in Irish outside the classroom

I was outside a pub recently in Brussels and heard an approaching group speaking Irish. In fact I have heard Irish spoken quite regularly here.

SEPT 23 1989 · 13-03-2013 02:42PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

In fact I have heard Irish spoken quite regularly here.

What part of Ireland?

Micky Dolenz · 13-03-2013 02:46PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What part of Ireland?

I was referring to Brussels.

I was in Dublin over Christmas and heard it spoken also. Not as much as other European languages though.

Clarehobo · 13-03-2013 02:49PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I have never heard anyone having a conversation in Irish outside the classroom

I have heard Irish conversations in multiple places including a few times on the Luas in Dublin.

Back on topic, as far as RTÉ were reporting, a page with useful Irish phrases is going to be circulated to the Gardaí.
None of them are being forced to go back to school. The report stated that the Garda in question couldn't even muster up a "Cad is ainm duit?". How do you pass the leaving cert and get into the Gardaí without even the most basic of phrases?
All the language commissioner is trying to do is enable them to deal with people if they cannot communicate through Irish by taking a practical approach.

anncoates · 13-03-2013 02:53PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I have never heard anyone having a conversation in Irish outside the classroom

I heard people talking in Irish in a pub the last time I was in Manchester.

blow69 · 13-03-2013 02:55PM

What baffles me most is that there is very obvious evidence that shows retention rates post Leaving Cert is abysmally low.

And yet nothing is done to rectify this. It is clear that the entire syllabus needs to change, but nobody in the Irish department is willing to acknowledge this, let alone go about changing it. It's denial on an extreme level. Let's just fix it with awareness campaigns with Hector hEochágin and Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh fronting it. Stupid.

I haven't spoken German in over two years and yet I could communicate with a German tourist on a basic/intermediate level (granted they speak slowly) and could give good directions. It's not a question of intelligence. It's the methods in which Irish is taught. It's not captivating. It's a drag.

And as for the accusations about not embracing Irish culture. Last time I checked, the Irish music scene is doing well. The GAA is certainly doing very well and will always continue to do so. And these aspects of Irish culture are not exclusively supported by exclusively Irish-speaking citizens.

gobnaitolunacy · 13-03-2013 02:57PM

blow69 wrote: »

What baffles me most is that there is very obvious evidence that shows retention rates post Leaving Cert is abysmally low.

And yet nothing is done to rectify this. It is clear that the entire syllabus needs to change, but nobody in the Irish department is willing to acknowledge this, let alone go about changing it. It's denial on an extreme level. Let's just fix it with awareness campaigns with Hector hEochágin and Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh fronting it. Stupid.

I haven't spoken German in over two years and yet I could communicate with a German tourist on a basic/intermediate level (granted they speak slowly) and could give good directions. It's not a question of intelligence. It's the methods in which Irish is taught. It's not captivating. It's a drag.

And as for the accusations about not embracing Irish culture. Last time I checked, the Irish music scene is doing well. The GAA is certainly doing very well and will always continue to do so. And these aspects of Irish culture are not exclusively supported by exclusively Irish-speaking citizens.

On the same note, how many people could solve a quadratic equation or do long division by hand now?

krudler · 13-03-2013 03:01PM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

On the same note, how many people could solve a quadratic equation or do long division by hand now?

maths and irish were my worst subjects in school, ironically we had the same teacher for both, with the thickest Kerry accent, spoke at a million miles an hour so couldnt understand most of what he said.

jobs like engineering or programming would have maths requirements I'd imagine but since I've left school ive never once ever had to apply anything beyond basic maths to anything. add subtract, multiplication, division, working out percentages etc, the stuff most people can do.

syklops · 13-03-2013 03:03PM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

On the same note, how many people could solve a quadratic equation or do long division by hand now?

I can.

I can also speak english which is the other core subject.

Wibbs · 13-03-2013 03:04PM

Cliste wrote: »

Culturally though there should be no doubt that it is the native of the country.

It is A native language no doubt about that, the "the" part is the problem.

When you look at Irish history and the names associated with it "Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill" or Red Hugh O'Donnell, Brian Boru etc etc. Strongbow and the great King Billy had to fight someone!
Look at any standing stones, and the Ogham written on them

Irish folklore, Setanta, Cú Culainn, Na Fianna etc etc

Which were transmitted in Old and/or Bardic Irish and the vast majority of modern Irish speakers would have as much trouble reading/speaking that as a native English speaker would have with Old English. Take something like the Old Irish poem "Pangur ban"

First verse
Original Irish text;

Messe [ocus] Pangur bán,
cechtar nathar fria saindán;
bíth a menma-sam fri seilgg,
mu menma céin im saincheirdd

English translation(there are loads, even Auden rattled one out, this one by Seamus Heaney);

Pangur Bán and I at work,
Adepts, equals, cat and clerk:
His whole instinct is to hunt,
Mine to free the meaning pent.

Even walking around looking at placenames.. Derry = Doire = Oak Grove.

Wicklow. Waterford, Arklow and a fair few others are of Norse etymology, yet we're not seeking to revive that.

Hiberno-English or whatever you would consider the 'native language' of the country is saturated in Irish. Deny it or not Irish is the native language of the Island.

A native language of Ireland. Nothing wrong with that either BTW, but to say it's the native language of Ireland strikes me as somewhat presumptuous .

SEPT 23 1989 wrote:

I have never heard anyone having a conversation in Irish outside the classroom

I have, but rarely. In a couple of people's houses(mostly urban), twice I can recall in Donegal and more recently some Gaelscoil kids talking to their parents. Not a lot given I've traveled this islannd pretty extensively and in many Gaelthact areas to boot over 40 years. Put it another way I heard more Basque spoken in one night on the lash in Bilbao than I've heard Irish in my lifetime. There's certainly more of it about today, particularly in the media and that's good, but it's far from common unless one seeks it out.

I know I've asked this before, but don't recall an answer... on the subject of TG4 Irish pronunciation. Take the station title itself. In school 4 was a ceathair, phonetically Ca-hir. Now more and more I hear Ca-hir-T. A T sound on the end of Irish words ending in an R sound. What gives there? I thought maybe I/we learned a vaguely anglo version, but then I was watching a programme on TG4 about elderly Blasket islanders and they said it the way I learned it. Ditto for other elderly native Irish speakers I've heard, eg Donegal. Is it a pronunciation particular to a certain part of Ireland that most of the continuity folks are from, or is it an affectation? A Dort accent as Gaelige?

Wibbs · 13-03-2013 03:08PM

blow69 wrote: »

And yet nothing is done to rectify this. It is clear that the entire syllabus needs to change, but nobody in the Irish department is willing to acknowledge this, let alone go about changing it. It's denial on an extreme level. Let's just fix it with awareness campaigns with Hector hEochágin and Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh fronting it. Stupid.

I suspect but could be wrong that there is some cultural resistance to teaching Irish as a foreign language - which it is for the vast majority - because it's felt that's a step too far to admit or something?

And as for the accusations about not embracing Irish culture. Last time I checked, the Irish music scene is doing well. The GAA is certainly doing very well and will always continue to do so. And these aspects of Irish culture are not exclusively supported by exclusively Irish-speaking citizens.

Very much so, because quite simply we want those things in our national psyche beyond lip service and they're going from strength to strength because of that.

gobnaitolunacy · 13-03-2013 03:10PM

syklops wrote: »

I can.

I can also speak english which is the other core subject.

Good for you, buddy.

anncoates · 13-03-2013 03:15PM

syklops wrote: »

I can..

Always handy.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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