Treatment for Heroin Users

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 07:49AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I must have dealt with the other 20% so.

Colour me sceptical about your undocumented miracle cure. I have a nagging concern it probably involves Jesus. Am I right?

Czarcasm wrote: »

No, please, don't go linking statistics, figures and surveys, I'll tell you straight out now I couldn't care less about figures on paper without any context of each individual human being behind them.

If ever a post deserved one, yours does: :rolleyes:

Czarcasm · 11-03-2013 08:05AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Colour me sceptical about your undocumented miracle cure. I have a nagging concern it probably involves Jesus. Am I right?

You'd be wrong Cavehill.

If ever a post deserved one, yours does: :rolleyes:

A rolleyes icon? Really, how juvenile.

Prevention, as Smidge suggested, would be a far better course of action than your Portuguese model.

I hate when posters draw comparisons with other countries because even the likes of Portugal is a world apart from Ireland in terms of it's culture, social structure and economics.

You can't just cherry pick and choose like that.

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 08:07AM

And do you know what I hate? People spoofing about something as serious as heroin addiction without offering a shred of evidence to back up their assertions, who actively spurn the actual facts and data, and reject successful models from a nearby country on undisclosed but allegedly crucial cultural differences.

Czarcasm · 11-03-2013 08:26AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And do you know what I hate? People spoofing about something as serious as heroin addiction without offering a shred of evidence to back up their assertions, who actively spurn the actual facts and data, and reject successful models from a nearby country on undisclosed but allegedly crucial cultural differences.

Oh I'm sorry, did I owe you some explanation or something?

If you're waiting for Jesus to appear he's out the back of the gaff getting nailed.

Like any poster here I can only base my opinion on my own experience. I don't care to base my opinion on a study from a country I know fannyadams else about only what my Portuguese friend could tell me, and what she tells me is economically Portugal is in the shìtter, worse than Ireland.

You cannot import a model that you say works on paper, and try and adapt it to suit a totally different culture and economy.

Free heroin doesn't work if you want to get people off heroin. It works even less if you're trying to prevent them from using heroin in the first place.

mikemac1 · 11-03-2013 08:43AM

Can we take the treatment centres out of the city centres?

Business aren't paying rates to be surrounded by these clients hanging around all day

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 09:26AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, did I owe you some explanation or something?

Something fact-based would be lovely, ta.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Like any poster here I can only base my opinion on my own experience.

Or, and this is just a thought, you could base it on the carefully-documented experiences of others, especially those that have been researched, studied and presented, following a peer review process, in medical journals.

Czarcasm wrote: »

You cannot import a model that you say works on paper, and try and adapt it to suit a totally different culture and economy.

It doesn't work 'on paper'. It works in fact, and has done for well over a decade.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Free heroin doesn't work if you want to get people off heroin.

Getting people off heroin is what doesn't work, because as I said, 80% will be back on it within a month, and a proportion of those will actually die because their tolerance will have dropped in the interim. Getting people off heroin is almost more likely to kill them than it is to permanently get them off heroin. So it's time to stop thinking about getting people off heroin and start thinking about how to reduce the levels of harm they do to themselves and society.

Odysseus · 11-03-2013 09:37AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I must have dealt with the other 20% so.

No, please, don't go linking statistics, figures and surveys, I'll tell you straight out now I couldn't care less about figures on paper without any context of each individual human being behind them.

What about those users taking benzos? Do your place of work help the go cold turkey too? As I'm sure you know this is dangerous.

I love to see clients get clean, however, for most of them this is a current solution.

Work with them while on meth for years if that is what it takes, when they are ready to detox, do it correctly. Have medical support, do a structured detox.

If they are in such a position that a drug free life is not an option we should be looking at drugs like diamorphine-heroin.

Addicts need support programmes all of them, not just the small; amount that are currently ready to give up drugs.

I have to honest, if I have my way centres who promote cold turkey with heroin users who are dependant on benzos would be shut down. I have seen too many people damaged by untrained people.

You may or may not be trained i.e. medic, psych, nurse etc. I don't know, but this isn't about you personally. It is about the people I have see damaged by people who convinced addicts they where ready for detox when they where not.

Often these places hire people in recovery, that is great, but being in recovery only tells you about your addiction. The people in recovery I work with when off to be trained in order to work in the area.

As I said I would close down centers who detox people with no medical back up, I would have them limited to support only and that would be only with fully trained staff.

Chuck Stone · 11-03-2013 09:47AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

please, don't go linking statistics, figures and surveys, I'll tell you straight out now I couldn't care less about figures on paper without any context of each individual human being behind them.

Ah yes. Forget all that fancy shmancy empiricism with its annoying quantitative data.

Jesus...

Odysseus · 11-03-2013 09:57AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Can we take the treatment centres out of the city centres?

Business aren't paying rates to be surrounded by these clients hanging around all day

Businesses have no right to interfer in how people access medical treatment.

Most treatment centers have catchment areas which mean you only get treated there if you live in that area.

There is only centre one in the city that has an open catchment area IIRC. I used to work in Tallaght, I would often see the clients from there in town, so they where not there because they get their treatment there.

So just because an addict hangs out in town, it does not mean they are treated there.

What do you want? Move the problem somewhere else? How about we offer better treatment and couple that with better policing?

Czarcasm · 11-03-2013 10:06AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Something fact-based would be lovely, ta.

I can't offer you any facts Cavehill because I can't offer you anything but personal anecdotes.

Or, and this is just a thought, you could base it on the carefully-documented experiences of others, especially those that have been researched, studied and presented, following a peer review process, in medical journals.

But then my opinion wouldn't be based on my experience. Experience that says you can prove or disprove anything with statistics, and interpret data sets a hundred different ways, but statistics will never tell you anything else about the person behind the "+1".

It doesn't work 'on paper'. It works in fact, and has done for well over a decade.

Are people still using heroin? Then what you call working and what I call working are two very different things.

Getting people off heroin is what doesn't work, because as I said, 80% will be back on it within a month, and a proportion of those will actually die because their tolerance will have dropped in the interim. Getting people off heroin is almost more likely to kill them than it is to permanently get them off heroin.

The above is probably the only thing we'll agree on, but it's a start.

So it's time to stop thinking about getting people off heroin and start thinking about how to reduce the levels of harm they do to themselves and society.

It's time Cavehill to start thinking about how we can help people to avoid thinking of trying it in the first place. It's not just the lower classes in society that heroin addicts come from. They're just the most visible element.

Decriminalising drugs does nothing to get to the root cause of why a person got themselves in that position. It's far more effective to deal with the root cause within the individual, than it is to enable their addiction to temporary relief.

Conor Bourke · 11-03-2013 10:13AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's time Cavehill to start thinking about how we can help people to avoid thinking of trying it in the first place. It's not just the lower classes in society that heroin addicts come from. They're just the most visible element.

Decriminalising drugs does nothing to get to the root cause of why a person got themselves in that position. It's far more effective to deal with the root cause within the individual, than it is to enable their addiction to temporary relief.

Prevention is better than cure is what you're trying to say? While fundamentally I agree, you cannot ignore the swathe of current addicts who still require treatment. How do you propose they are dealt with? Or do you wish for their treatment to be withdrawn entirely?

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 10:18AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I can't offer you any facts Cavehill because I can't offer you anything but personal anecdotes.

No thanks. I prefer facts.

Czarcasm wrote: »

But then my opinion wouldn't be based on my experience. Experience that says you can prove or disprove anything with statistics, and interpret data sets a hundred different ways, but statistics will never tell you anything else about the person behind the "+1".

I don't care about your experience. I don't particularly care about the addicts who make up the statistics either. What I do care about is society, and the cost of addiction as currently (mis)managed to society, both financially and socially. You're desperately keen to avoid a fact-based discussion, but I suspect you'll find that pretty much everyone else would rather base the discussion on facts than on your comic anecdotes.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Are people still using heroin? Then what you call working and what I call working are two very different things.

Of course. What I call working works. What you call working is an unachievable utopia that will never happen. There will be people using heroin until the end of time.

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's time Cavehill to start thinking about how we can help people to avoid thinking of trying it in the first place. It's not just the lower classes in society that heroin addicts come from. They're just the most visible element.

That's another discussion. Even if you could entirely eradicate people starting on heroin (and you can't), I don't want to wait 40 years before we deal with the problem we currently have, which is existing addicts, and their behaviour, and the harm they cause themselves and others.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Decriminalising drugs does nothing to get to the root cause of why a person got themselves in that position. It's far more effective to deal with the root cause within the individual, than it is to enable their addiction to temporary relief.

No one mentioned decriminalising drugs. Again, go google Portugal's drugs policy if you can get over your allergy to facts.

1ZRed · 11-03-2013 10:32AM

certifiedcrepe wrote: »

Thinly veiled "I'm not on heroin" thread

Well la de da!

Hopsin · 11-03-2013 10:38AM

Read some of the first page.... so maybe this was posted inbetween... But emmm

What happens, when all the junkies (no matter addicted or not) leave their dealers and all come to the government for their fix. Then the dealers go out of business (well the heroin business anyway, lets not forget all the other wonderful drugs they will continue to sell). Once dealers go out of business we will stop having huge quantites of heroin we got for free from drug raids and will have to go looking for it ourselves.

Also, where do you stop? I know a lot of people hopelessly hooked on cannabis? And they are out robbing and mugging people to get their fixes. Do we start supplying them? What about people hooked on cocaine? Crack? Crystal meth (if it ever gets a hold)?

And what kind of message does this send to potential users? It sounds a lot like the current setup we constantly hear about- young teenage girl gets pregnant, poor thing, give her a nice big house, and sort her out with a load of money every week.

I cant see this system working.

not yet · 11-03-2013 10:43AM

Story buddy would ya have a smoke on you.....

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 10:46AM

Hopsin wrote: »

What happens, when all the junkies (no matter addicted or not) leave their dealers and all come to the government for their fix. Then the dealers go out of business (well the heroin business anyway, lets not forget all the other wonderful drugs they will continue to sell). Once dealers go out of business we will stop having huge quantites of heroin we got for free from drug raids and will have to go looking for it ourselves.

Heroin is not an expensive drug. It's used every day in our hospitals, and there is no problem in the health service getting enough to supply every junkie in Ireland out of the money they currently use to give a small number of them treatments that don't work and methadone that they don't want.

Hopsin wrote: »

Also, where do you stop? I know a lot of people hopelessly hooked on cannabis? And they are out robbing and mugging people to get their fixes. Do we start supplying them? What about people hooked on cocaine? Crack? Crystal meth (if it ever gets a hold)?

No, you don't know anyone hopelessly hooked on cannabis, as it is proven impossible to become physiologically addicted to it. You don't know anyone out robbing and mugging to get 'fixes' of cannabis because stoners are simply too demotivated to bother. Your hyperbole would work much better if you restricted your query to cocaine and other hard drugs, to which the answer is, you stop with heroin, since it is the drug which causes the most significant social harm.

Hopsin wrote: »

And what kind of message does this send to potential users? It sounds a lot like the current setup we constantly hear about- young teenage girl gets pregnant, poor thing, give her a nice big house, and sort her out with a load of money every week.

It only sounds like that if you get all your messages from the Daily Mail. It seems almost superfluous to point out that teenage pregnant girls are not given big houses and loads of money weekly, but I suppose if you were the sort of person who believes that they are, then you might be credulous enough to think that people would deliberately embark on an addiction to heroin in order to get something for free.

KyussBishop · 11-03-2013 10:56AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

But then my opinion wouldn't be based on my experience. Experience that says you can prove or disprove anything with statistics, and interpret data sets a hundred different ways, but statistics will never tell you anything else about the person behind the "+1".

Really, someone with this kind of bonkers view towards statistics (which play a critically important role in guiding medical research and policy), should never be in a position of treatment/guidance for another person, with medically significant issues.

Using the same argument, you can pour doubt on just about every aspect of any field of science, or on any established facts we take for granted today; it's ridiculous. The kind of argument a homeopath would use to justify their treatments, in the face of overwhelming evidence against their effectiveness.

Hopsin · 11-03-2013 12:11PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, you don't know anyone hopelessly hooked on cannabis, as it is proven impossible to become physiologically addicted to it. You don't know anyone out robbing and mugging to get 'fixes' of cannabis because stoners are simply too demotivated to bother. Your hyperbole would work much better if you restricted your query to cocaine and other hard drugs, to which the answer is, you stop with heroin, since it is the drug which causes the most significant social harm.

Listen I dont care what it says on paper. I know a lot of teens around here that are out robbing from shops/people and spending all the profits on weed and drink. But of course, thats not going to be in any kind of scientific journal. So your just going to keep telling me Im wrong, and that theres no proof this is happening and of course, I have no way to back up my "lies" so Im not even gonna bother.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

It only sounds like that if you get all your messages from the Daily Mail. It seems almost superfluous to point out that teenage pregnant girls are not given big houses and loads of money weekly, but I suppose if you were the sort of person who believes that they are, then you might be credulous enough to think that people would deliberately embark on an addiction to heroin in order to get something for free.

I guess that bit just went over your head then :rolleyes: I know way too many single mothers and I know exactly the kinda houses they are living in. But I also see the way a lot of people on here think of them and seem to think they are living like millionaires. By giving out free heroin you are going to start the same thing.

pickarooney · 11-03-2013 12:13PM

I don't think you can tackle heroin addiction with more heroin. People presumably become addicted to heroin because their lives are in bits anyway and it's the only source of release. It's not as though people aren't aware of the lows of the drug and wander blindfolded into an addiction to the drug. Likewise if someone really wants to come clean, they will.

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 12:23PM

Hopsin wrote: »

Listen I dont care what it says on paper. I know a lot of teens around here that are out robbing from shops/people and spending all the profits on weed and drink. But of course, thats not going to be in any kind of scientific journal. So your just going to keep telling me Im wrong, and that theres no proof this is happening and of course, I have no way to back up my "lies" so Im not even gonna bother.

That's vote number two for No Facts. Is this allergy contagious because I do not want to catch it?

Hopsin wrote: »

I guess that bit just went over your head then :rolleyes: I know way too many single mothers and I know exactly the kinda houses they are living in. But I also see the way a lot of people on here think of them and seem to think they are living like millionaires. By giving out free heroin you are going to start the same thing.

Grow up. No single mother lives in a mansion, unless she's a self-made millionaire. Certainly the state is not housing single mothers on benefits in mansions, nor are the benefits some sort of fortune. Of course, you don't like facts, so this will go right over your head.
I can only repeat, if you think that offering free and safe heroin to addicts will lead to people taking up addiction as a lifestyle choice just to get some free stuff, then I have a large bridge in London to sell you.

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 12:24PM

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't think you can tackle heroin addiction with more heroin. People presumably become addicted to heroin because their lives are in bits anyway and it's the only source of release. It's not as though people aren't aware of the lows of the drug and wander blindfolded into an addiction to the drug. Likewise if someone really wants to come clean, they will.

No, you don't resolve addiction by giving them heroin. You don't resolve it by giving out methadone either, but we do that, even though it doesn't work. What it would achieve though is a massive decrease in the social harm done by addicts pursuing the money for their drugs, and a decrease in the physiological harm they do to themselves.

Turtyturd · 11-03-2013 12:28PM

11,000 people on it in the country at any one time, and at least 10,000 of them hang around the 27B bus stop in town....scumbags.

Hopsin · 11-03-2013 12:36PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That's vote number two for No Facts. Is this allergy contagious because I do not want to catch it?

Yeh. I thought you'd say something like that.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Grow up. No single mother lives in a mansion, unless she's a self-made millionaire. Certainly the state is not housing single mothers on benefits, nor are the benefits some sort of fortune. Of course, you don't like facts, so this will go right over your head.

Emmm... you must be a bit on the thick side or something bud. Your after telling me to "growup" and that this would go right over my head that single mothers arent millionaires in mansions. If ya actually read my post you would see I said, I see first hand the kind of houses single mothers live in. But of course I have no facts to back this up. So once again, your just going to have to believe me when I tell you single mothers arent all that well off. And that no they dont live in huge mansions. And that yes there is certain amount of people on boards that seem to believe they are millionaires and they come on here kicking and screaming and demanding cuts for them. And of course, this is all anecdotal evidence. I cant back any of this up with links to scientific journals :rolleyes:

Cavehill Red · 11-03-2013 12:42PM

Hopsin wrote: »

Emmm... you must be a bit on the thick side or something bud. Your after telling me to "growup" and that this would go right over my head that single mothers arent millionaires in mansions. If ya actually read my post you would see I said, I see first hand the kind of houses single mothers live in. But of course I have no facts to back this up. So once again, your just going to have to believe me when I tell you single mothers arent all that well off. And that no they dont live in huge mansions. And that yes there is certain amount of people on boards that seem to believe they are millionaires and they come on here kicking and screaming and demanding cuts for them. And of course, this is all anecdotal evidence. I cant back any of this up with links to scientific journals :rolleyes:

Ah, so you're shifting the goalposts to distance yourself from these misconceptions. Good. Let's revisit what you originally wrote in light of this then. You originally said:

And what kind of message does this send to potential users? It sounds a lot like the current setup we constantly hear about- young teenage girl gets pregnant, poor thing, give her a nice big house, and sort her out with a load of money every week.

Now you're pretending clarifying that you personally don't believe such stories at all. So in your original post what do you mean when you say that the idea of offering free heroin to addicts would "sounds a lot like" these stories of pregnant teens with fortunes in state-provided mansions that you of course give no credence to?

Czarcasm · 11-03-2013 01:51PM

Cavehill I'd only love to see a proper, long term, realistic solution put in place to combat the sort of social problems you're suggesting heroin addicts cause. I just don't believe that in Ireland, giving addicts medicinal heroin for free is actually going to solve the problems in the long term.

I know heroin is cheap, but the money to pay for it still has to come from somewhere, and right now the government doesn't so much as have a pot to pìss in, let alone buy heroin for heroin addicts.

The system in place at the moment, sure, it's not perfect, not by a long shot, because again it's only a short term solution to the most visible problem.

To fix the problem of people addicted to heroin and the social unrest that causes, you have to fix the underlying problems, otherwise you're just blindly giving up and saying "ah we can't fix this so lets let them have at it".

Now I know you said I was allergic to google, but I'm not, I'm allergic to using statistics to account for individual behaviour. I know peer review this and peer review that but what I actually did was just type into google "Portugal drug facts", and it spat this back at me which is a pretty good illustration of the point I was trying to make that you can use statistics to support any side of an argument-

http://www.samefacts.com/2010/10/drug-policy/scientific-proof-that-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-saved-lives-and-killed-people/

I don't have all the answers, not by a long shot, but if you do one of those post history searches that posters seem to love around here, you'll see that I've been involved in discussions promoting further legislation to accommodate sex work, based on how it's apparently worked in the Netherlands, legislate for weed based on how it's apparently worked in the Netherlands (both of these are currently under review for reform btw, but don't let that stop Ireland), and now you would suggest that we legislate for heroin use?

Would you also suggest we adopt a culture of riding round on bicycles and taking a two hour siesta in the afternoon?

Anyway, I'm in no form for continuing this discussion not because it's a futile argument, it's an interesting debate, but I'm after getting hopped off the ground twice with the stupid black ice around here so my head isn't able for this shìte today. I'll have to bow out here.

BillyMitchel · 11-03-2013 02:24PM

Cold turkey. Trust me its the best. Might be the hardest but it is the best. Get yourself to a secluded house, have someone there and go through whatever comes your way and get that junk out of your system once and for all.

Everything else is just pushing it under the carpet.

J_E · 11-03-2013 03:43PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, you don't resolve addiction by giving them heroin. You don't resolve it by giving out methadone either, but we do that, even though it doesn't work. What it would achieve though is a massive decrease in the social harm done by addicts pursuing the money for their drugs, and a decrease in the physiological harm they do to themselves.

Methadone is a little different though. It doesn't give a user the same buzz, it's to deal with the withdrawal effects which can be severe. Few people can manage something as crucifying as going cold turkey.

Treatment for Heroin Users

Comments