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The naked ape

2

Comments

  • #32
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Cungi wrote: »
    I think we're pretty much the same as every other animal. But we do have an ability that no other animal can match.
    The ability to destroy.
    Every animal has the potential to destroy. The only thing stopping ants from stripping the Amazon down to the bare ground is their small size but they do decimate areas of forest in their quest for food.

    There's nothing unique about humans propensity for violence. It's a rule of nature that the bigger stronger animal kills the weaker ones.

    What is unique to humans is our ability to meet a strange human and not decide to fight them straight away. Just look at cities with millions of people in them. If that was a city full of dogs it would be a chaotic violent mess.

    Then you have humans actively conserving other life, pretty much unheard of in any other species. Humans are by far the nicest animal on the planet considering our abilities.


  • #33
    Cungi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 486 ✭✭Cungi


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Every animal has the potential to destroy. The only thing stopping ants from stripping the Amazon down to the bare ground is their small size but they do decimate areas of forest in their quest for food.

    There's nothing unique about humans propensity for violence. It's a rule of nature that the bigger stronger animal kills the weaker ones.

    What is unique to humans is our ability to meet a strange human and not decide to fight them straight away. Just look at cities with millions of people in them. If that was a city full of dogs it would be a chaotic violent mess.

    Then you have humans actively conserving other life, pretty much unheard of in any other species. Humans are by far the nicest animal on the planet considering our abilities.

    True. Other animals do have a capacity for violence but nowhere near Human scale. We have the ability to destroy all life on this planet.

    What about self-destruction. Is any other animal capable of that?


  • #34
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Cungi wrote: »
    True. Other animals do have a capacity for violence but nowhere near Human scale. We have the ability to destroy all life on this planet.
    That's an ability we developed though. It's not like humans go out with the intention to destroy life. We go out with the same desires as other animals, territory and food. We just so happen to be very good at everything we do. So whereas an ant may try to strip a forest of everything we do our best not to but end up doing it out of perceived necessity.
    What about self-destruction. Is any other animal capable of that?
    Yes, the males of many species are killed in the act of copulation. Chimps get depressed and die. Self destruction is usually a symptom of something gone wrong. The majority of humans don't wake up and try and kill themselves every morning.


  • #35
    Cungi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 486 ✭✭Cungi


    ScumLord wrote: »
    . So whereas an ant may try to strip a forest of everything we do our best not to but end up doing it out of perceived necessity.

    Fair point.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    Yes, the males of many species are killed in the act of copulation. Chimps get depressed and die. Self destruction is usually a symptom of something gone wrong. The majority of humans don't wake up and try and kill themselves every morning.

    the majority of us don't but we all have that ability
    Copulation isnt exactly suicide though. I mean a male black widow spider doesnt know he's goin to be killed by the missus though, does he?

    The actual act of suicide. Intentionally ending your own life. Can other animals do this?


  • #36
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Cungi wrote: »
    the majority of us don't but we all have that ability
    Copulation isnt exactly suicide though. I mean a male black widow spider doesnt know he's goin to be killed by the missus though, does he?

    The actual act of suicide. Intentionally ending your own life. Can other animals do this?
    Do other animals even understand the concept of death? If they can't relate to other animals that they see dying they may not know they can kill themselves, they may think if they jump of a cliff they'll only get hurt a lot. If you think of it death isn't something we experience ourselves, we have to imagine what it's like to die.


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  • #37
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    We can step outside evolution and "cheat" it to suit us. No other animal does this. They're essentially slaves to evolution.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #38
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Wibbs wrote: »
    We can step outside evolution and "cheat" it to suit us. No other animal does this. They're essentially slaves to evolution.

    Actually that's a very good point!


  • #39
    Cungi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 486 ✭✭Cungi


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Do other animals even understand the concept of death? If they can't relate to other animals that they see dying they may not know they can kill themselves, they may think if they jump of a cliff they'll only get hurt a lot. If you think of it death isn't something we experience ourselves, we have to imagine what it's like to die.

    Good point. AFAIK only elephants seem to have a concept of death. Though that may be the way we perceive their behaviour around their dead.

    As you say animals may not have concept of death which would seem the ability of suicide seems to be a human-only trait.

    Also without a concept of death or an afterlife, then praying to a creator would seem to be a human-only trait as well.


  • #40
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Where to closed his account! :eek: :(


  • #41
    bullets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A book came out years ago called the naked ape. It was written by a zoologist called Desmond Morris and he took a novel

    I was asked once upon a time about who I admired or who inspired me and I
    could not think of anyone. Out of not been able to think of anyone else
    I blurted out Desmond Morris since I could not think of anyone else at the time.

    Loved his observations on things. As a teenager I had his book Manwatching which came after the Naked Ape. I was fascinated with how right he got it with human behavior. He also had books about catwatching, babywatching and body watching which I never read but must give the bloke a google again to see if he's still alive or dead or produced anything else. I remember watching footage of him years ago where he identified more with animals than he did with his fellow man.

    ~B


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  • #42
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,186 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Have a copy of Manwatching somewhere, must have a look for it now.


  • #43
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    Do people actually not realise a difference between humans and other animals? Or are ye just being namby pamby tree hugger types?


  • #44
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,186 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    If any other animal developed to a point where they could threaten us intellectually, culturally or whatever we would destroy them. We wouldn't allow another species to gain the advantages we have.
    I'm not sure if we destroyed or interbred with our other close relatives, I read that we interbred with Neanderthals, not sure what the story is with the others. Perhaps someone from the Anthropology forum can enlighten us?

    I do have this thought in the back of my head that some day the cat will strike up a conversation with me in perfect English.
    'Wait a second, you can speak?!'
    'Of course I can, I just choose not to, the way I see it us cats have it pretty easy and there's no point in rocking the boat'
    'I could just tell everyone that you can speak..'
    'and who would believe you?'
    The cat is Bill fcuking Murray.


  • #45
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Actually that's a very good point!
    Even a stopped clock... :D

    But yea we were a veggie eating small enough bipedal ape, copped that meat was bigger bang for the buck calories and nutrients wise so we took up eating the stuff, scavenging at first. Problem was we didn't have the teeth or claws to render it down, so we made our own outa stone. Then because our stomach acids are weak, we predigested meat and other foods by cooking them with fire. External digestion. We weren't very cold adapted, but that didn't stop us. No Siree. We went and nicked fur from other animals and with fire moved into new territories. We need air and water and food and warmth to survive, yet over 40 years ago we stood on the moon. That's the difference. We alone of the animals have the potential to become near gods. If it can be imagined and we survive one day we will likely make it happen.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #46
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    kowloon wrote: »
    I'm not sure if we destroyed or interbred with our other close relatives, I read that we interbred with Neanderthals, not sure what the story is with the others. Perhaps someone from the Anthropology forum can enlighten us?
    Wrong discipline I'm afraid. Yea we got jiggy with Neandertals and with folks we called Denisovans from Asia, who were as different from Neandertals as we were genetically speaking. Others? Well some modern populations have deep genetic markers that predate modern humans so Homo Erectus is another likely bed partner.

    And remember the amount of fossil humans so far found is tiny, like crazily tiny and mostly just bits and pieces. EG Neandertals, the closest to us, the ones we know the most of? We don't have a full skeleton. The ones you see are mixtures of different folks, mostly lads. Who knows what other people lay out there yet to be found. The world is a huge place and much of it hasn't been explored archaelogically. Somebody could have found something on a farm or on holiday that sits in a drawer and it could change everything. Hell as a kid I found Neandertal stone tools in France and Spain on holliers(I was a weird kid with patient parents :D).

    Plus most of those finds have no DNA in them to test. It takes rare circumstances to preserve it for the kinda time periods we're chatting about and most places don't have those conditions.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #47
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,186 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Wrong discipline I'm afraid.

    Feck, not going to live that one down! :o


  • #48
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Wibbs wrote: »
    We alone of the animals have the potential to become near gods. If it can be imagined and we survive one day we will likely make it happen.
    I think the greatest potential of the human species is to act like sperm bringing life from this planet to others. Anywhere we go in space we have the potential to leave behind life even if unintentionally. We'd be like smart asteroids, specifically targeted at the stars with the highest potential to support life.


  • #49
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    seamus wrote: »
    Imagine that tomorrow, everyone woke up and found themselves unable to speak. We could make some vocalisations with our mouths, but no words. In fact, we couldn't even comprehend words - the written word was just shapes on paper and recordings nothing more than gibberish. Sign language, forgotten. You remember how to do things, but permanently lack the ability to communicate to anyone with any accuracy past pointing and making noises?

    How long do you think it would be before we all ended up living in tiny communities, fending for ourselves and basically acting like apes? I'd give us a few months.
    We'd just use sign language, same way that people who spoke different languages have done upon first contact since the days of Babel


  • #50
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    And what is it that separates us from the animals ?


    The Liffey :pac:


  • #51
    ashers222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭ashers222


    first book I ever requested as a kid was called the human difference, it was a philosophical, social sciencey, biological typey view of human nature and explores how we differentiate from the animal kingdom. It was very good, five stars.


    (the answer is our self awareness btw, which is also the same ability which allows us to create and destroy the world around us in equal measure ironically)


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  • #52
    lintdrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    On the subject of animal suicide; I always consider whales beaching themselves as a form of suicide. Often it seems that they are sick or old when they do it and attempts by humans to get them back in the water inevitably fail when they beach themselves again.
    Mass beaching is difficult to understand.


  • #53
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    And what is it that separates us from the animals ?


    The Liffey :pac:

    I can't stand the D4 set, but I'd never refer to them as animals. ;)


  • #54
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    lintdrummer wrote: »
    On the subject of animal suicide; I always consider whales beaching themselves as a form of suicide. Often it seems that they are sick or old when they do it and attempts by humans to get them back in the water inevitably fail when they beach themselves again.
    Mass beaching is difficult to understand.
    easy to understand if you assume they are creatures of the open ocean and are confused by echo reflections in waters that are far shallower than they are used to

    how many tales are there of hikers lost in the woods dying only a few hundred meters from the trail ?


  • #55
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I think the greatest potential of the human species is to act like sperm bringing life from this planet to others. Anywhere we go in space we have the potential to leave behind life even if unintentionally. We'd be like smart asteroids, specifically targeted at the stars with the highest potential to support life.
    I'd be thinking even bigger S. Creating new universes. Maybe intelligent life gets to a point in science where they can do that. Maybe intelligent life is actually the sperm egg the reproductive organs of the universe?

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #56
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'd be thinking even bigger S. Creating new universes. Maybe intelligent life gets to a point in science where they can do that. Maybe intelligent life is actually the sperm egg the reproductive organs of the universe?

    Well Wibbs look at the parrallel univeres episode at horizon. A physicist has been working on the feasibility creating new universes in the lab. He thinks it's completely possible to create a new universe and once it's created it will find it's own space!


  • #57
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Cungi wrote: »
    Good point. AFAIK only elephants seem to have a concept of death. Though that may be the way we perceive their behaviour around their dead.

    As you say animals may not have concept of death which would seem the ability of suicide seems to be a human-only trait.

    Also without a concept of death or an afterlife, then praying to a creator would seem to be a human-only trait as well.

    Of course they understand death. They see death everyday, they understand death so well, they don't think it is such a big deal.


  • #58
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    ashers222 wrote: »
    first book I ever requested as a kid was called the human difference, it was a philosophical, social sciencey, biological typey view of human nature and explores how we differentiate from the animal kingdom. It was very good, five stars.


    (the answer is our self awareness btw, which is also the same ability which allows us to create and destroy the world around us in equal measure ironically)

    Dogs have been proven to be self aware, so have many other animals, you should throw that book in the fire. And I know plenty of people with no self-awareness!


  • #59
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    Sometimes I see humans that have more animal-like traits & behaviour than anything I'd see in a zoo.


  • #60
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Wrong discipline I'm afraid. Yea we got jiggy with Neandertals and with folks we called Denisovans from Asia, who were as different from Neandertals as we were genetically speaking. Others? Well some modern populations have deep genetic markers that predate modern humans so Homo Erectus is another likely bed partner.

    And remember the amount of fossil humans so far found is tiny, like crazily tiny and mostly just bits and pieces. EG Neandertals, the closest to us, the ones we know the most of? We don't have a full skeleton. The ones you see are mixtures of different folks, mostly lads. Who knows what other people lay out there yet to be found. The world is a huge place and much of it hasn't been explored archaelogically. Somebody could have found something on a farm or on holiday that sits in a drawer and it could change everything. Hell as a kid I found Neandertal stone tools in France and Spain on holliers(I was a weird kid with patient parents :D).

    Plus most of those finds have no DNA in them to test. It takes rare circumstances to preserve it for the kinda time periods we're chatting about and most places don't have those conditions.

    :pac:

    That is all, continue what you were at.


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  • #61
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'd be thinking even bigger S. Creating new universes. Maybe intelligent life gets to a point in science where they can do that. Maybe intelligent life is actually the sperm egg the reproductive organs of the universe?
    I had heard something about that, it seems crazy that it could potentially be easier for us to create a whole new universe than it would be for us to see even half of our own universe.
    maninasia wrote: »
    Dogs have been proven to be self aware, so have many other animals, you should throw that book in the fire. And I know plenty of people with no self-awareness!
    Are dogs all that self aware? They don't pass the mirror test. Although they do possess a very complex human trait the ability to read human faces for emotions. Although being able to understand other animals could be something that many predators have.


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