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Limitations of Science?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,724 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    nagirrac wrote: »
    The "who created God" argument is another logical fallacy. It is related to a lack of understanding of the concept of eternal and muddling it with the concept of infinity. Time is relative and measured according to our perspective. The God who created our observed universe is hardly subject to its laws. That's like saying if I make a movie I am subject to only a two dimensional existance.
    That's also not a fallacy.
    It's a tricksy point to catch out people who making the argument "everything need a creator-therefore god created everything." (which is a fallacy.)
    To answer the point such a person must them either admit to an infinite regress or admit that something can exist without a creator, negating the first premise.

    But you know, that's just me framing people's positions fairly and in context...


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    The "who created God" argument is another logical fallacy. It is related to a lack of understanding of the concept of eternal and muddling it with the concept of infinity. Time is relative and measured according to our perspective. The God who created our observed universe is hardly subject to its laws. That's like saying if I make a movie I am subject to only a two dimensional existance.

    So you're argument is god being an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being created a world in which he has no ability to directly interfere, and in which his existence cannot be proven... That's very convenient... You'd nearly think God was some sort of public servant at that rate... Anyone can create a set of perimeters which cannot be tested and call it a hypothesis, it takes real imagination to accept the perimeters we can conceive and work with-in them to develop a theory...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Eramen wrote: »
    The infinity of numbers can't be observed [hint: it would take forever], it can only be related to in some form via mathematics, which not evidence.

    Of course it is evidence. As for observation, you can observe the rules that are evidence that numbers are infinite.

    For example, this is Euclid's proof of infinite primes

    Theorem.
    There are infinitely many primes.
    Proof.
    Suppose that p1=2 < p2 = 3 < ... < pr are all of the primes. Let P = p1p2...pr+1 and let p be a prime dividing P; then p can not be any of p1, p2, ..., pr, otherwise p would divide the difference P-p1p2...pr=1, which is impossible. So this prime p is still another prime, and p1, p2, ..., pr would not be all of the primes.

    You and I are now observing this.
    Eramen wrote: »
    The alternative is already incorporated into science/philosophy. Universal principles such as energy, matter, the causes of the forces have never been observed but there existence may be inferred through their produce (all material phenomena). Yet thus far as we can observe and gather through evidence they cannot be explained in entirely physical terms themselves, but only through abstractions.

    They aren't explained (see my earlier post about place holder terms)
    Eramen wrote: »
    I propose that people who have not yet learned to conduct themselves not be given permission to conduct others.

    Ok.. that doesn't counter my point
    Eramen wrote: »
    Perhaps people should investigate the conundrum of empirical belief. "Why do I believe that that which is relative [the material] to be real?"

    It would be a good start.

    Not really. You claim that there are better ways to discover if claims about reality are accurate or not. What are these better ways.
    Eramen wrote: »
    Another question of greater importance still:

    "Why am I suffering?"

    Well right now I'm reading your posts ... oh, you meant spiritually I imagine.

    Well you will notice that the major strives in improving human quality of life only were made after the Enlightenment and the abandonment of magical thinking.

    So while ancient religions promised all sorts of wonderful things in the after life, they did very little to increase our understanding of the world around us in order to prevent suffering. They merely told people to get on with dying and look forward to the wonderful stuff that awaited them afterwards.
    Eramen wrote: »
    I agree that numbers are infinite can be supported. Not by evidence or empiricism though, which was my original point.

    You don't seem to understand what evidence is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    So you're argument is god being an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being created a world in which he has no ability to directly interfere, and in which his existence cannot be proven... That's very convenient... You'd nearly think God was some sort of public servant at that rate... Anyone can create a set of perimeters which cannot be tested and call it a hypothesis, it takes real imagination to accept the perimeters we can conceive and work with-in them to develop a theory...

    Of course God has the ability to directly interfere in the world he created, including making it vanish should he choose. Every field of science when take holistically as opposed to individually suggests an underlying reality that is a mathematical construction. Only a mind is capable of mathematical construction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Of course God has the ability to directly interfere in the world he created, including making it vanish should he choose. Every field of science when take holistically as opposed to individually suggests an underlying reality that is a mathematical construction. Only a mind is capable of mathematical construction.

    Wow... So, God has a mind similar to man? But is all seeing and knowing? Also, what you said simply is not true...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    That's your logic, nagirrac?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    Wow... So, God has a mind similar to man? But is all seeing and knowing? Also, what you said simply is not true...

    No, nothing similar to man obviously, a bit more advanced I would imagine (from looking at the evidence).


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    No, nothing similar to man obviously, a bit more advanced I would imagine (from looking at the evidence).

    You are aware you're one post away from revealing you believe burning bushes can talk to people?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    You are aware you're one post away from revealing you believe burning bushes can talk to people?

    You've thrown in the towel then I take it.. next


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  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    You've thrown in the towel then I take it.. next

    No, but if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people...

    You obviously don't understand anything to do with quantum mechanics, or the principles of concept and reality, and you're just making up things at this stage... I value my time more than to have these conversations with people that aren't open to being proven wrong...

    I ask just one question, the only one I need to ask...

    Prove God exists... If you cannot, then explain why he must in order for the universe to make sense... That would turn your hypothesis into a theory, but if you cannot then it remains a hypothesis- a poor one, but a hypothesis... Now if you're hypothesis can be disputed by by a better hypothesis, then it still is a hypothesis but is not as valid as a better one...

    If you can make headway on any of the above PM or post here, I'll see it, but nothing I've seen so far has done anything for me...


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Of course it is evidence. As for observation, you can observe the rules that are evidence that numbers are infinite.

    For example, this is Euclid's proof of infinite primes

    Theorem.
    There are infinitely many primes.
    Proof.
    Suppose that p1=2 < p2 = 3 < ... < pr are all of the primes. Let P = p1p2...pr+1 and let p be a prime dividing P; then p can not be any of p1, p2, ..., pr, otherwise p would divide the difference P-p1p2...pr=1, which is impossible. So this prime p is still another prime, and p1, p2, ..., pr would not be all of the primes.

    You and I are now observing this.

    Yes, I observed the writing and the numbers but it is only when I made the information intelligible in my mind, through my understanding of the ideas of maths that it became understood as a proof. It's the consciousness that produces proof.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    Ok.. that doesn't counter my point

    I'm not trying to Zombrex, I like the discussion of ideas!

    Zombrex wrote: »

    Well right now I'm reading your posts ... oh, you meant spiritually I imagine.

    You could say that but it's more than that too.

    A person who is caught up their own desires, feeling, rewards, errors, pain, elation, embarrassment and anything else humans are liable to be sensitive to, creates eventual suffering physically and mentally in whatever form. It's a daily facet of our lives that is a part of our existence.

    But the man who questions what is the cause of all the former experiences; why is he acting/thinking in a certain way; to what ends he is moving and to why is he attached to feelings that usually end up in suffering, is surely a very intelligent person.

    When people do this, the world becomes a little bit less terrible.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    Well you will notice that the major strives in improving human quality of life only were made after the Enlightenment and the abandonment of magical thinking.

    Certainly the material rewards and living has increased since then. Yet this is correlated more with economic developments, with the technological ability to harness great quantities of energy using cheap petrochemicals and coal so that items could be mass-produced for everyone in the west. This is the reason for our material abundance.

    Religion (and not the positive kind) is still around, Salafism, evangelical 'Christianity' which have no bearing or root in the actual religions they suppose to come from. Also new 'unquestionable sacred cows' have arrived on the scene. The cult of absolute equality, everyone is the same, belief in empirical science only, wealth as happiness, economic globalization, social-marxism, democracy as freedom et all: Superstitions.

    Zombrex wrote: »

    You don't seem to understand what evidence is.


    Evidence and proof are different, I'm using them in the mathematical / philosophical sense. You are using them legally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    Everyone here needs to separate concepts from realities...


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    All you need to do is see the caliber and intelligence of top-line atheists and compare it to that of top-line theists and you very quickly begin to see a pattern...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNgCaqLIR0


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    All you need to do is see the caliber and intelligence of top-line atheists and compare it to that of top-line theists and you very quickly begin to see a pattern...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNgCaqLIR0


    Dick Dawkins is a well-paid PR. He would want to be good.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 401 ✭✭Leinsterr


    I didn't bother reading the OP's post so I'll try to answer the title "Limitations of Science". In my opinion, first and foremost, what will limit science in the future will be our energy resources. Considering we don't have an unlimited amount of energy we cannot create certain scientific things (sorry for grammar, really tired). I have more but about to fall asleep


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    All you need to do is see the caliber and intelligence of top-line atheists and compare it to that of top-line theists and you very quickly begin to see a pattern...



    Four atheists clapping each other on the back and agreeing with each other is a compelling argument for intelligence?
    Must try harder..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    But you'll accept four 'philosophers' clapping eachother on the back and agreeing with eachother that there must be more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    EmmettInc wrote: »
    All you need to do is see the caliber and intelligence of top-line atheists and compare it to that of top-line theists and you very quickly begin to see a pattern...



    Four atheists clapping each other on the back and agreeing with each other is a compelling argument for intelligence?
    Must try harder..

    No, what they're saying is... You really really don't get this do you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    No, but if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people...

    You obviously don't understand anything to do with quantum mechanics..

    Prove God exists... If you cannot, then explain why he must in order for the universe to make sense...


    Firstly, I am not religious as you would know if you actually read anything I have written. Posting up videos of atheists rubbishing what religious believe is not going to prove anything to someone who does not take what religious people believe very seriously.

    As for introudicng quantum mechanics into the discussion, I suspect I understand it as well as you do considering nobody truly understands it, but out of curiosity, what is your leaning on interpretation of QM and why, the Copenhagen Interpretation or Many Worlds or one of the other ten interpretations?

    I cannot prove to you that God exists. I have however personally concluded that he exists for the universe to make sense to me. I also accept that I do not understand the underlying reality of the universe, a factor you might want to consider in your own thinking on concepts and reality.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23 science_biggot


    Can theism or divinity explain any of what you just said?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    No, but if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people...

    I would support the notion that modern atheism is no longer a cultural movement but a semi-religious one because of their pushing on the general populace their one-time cultural views now fashioned as a universal reality that is not just true for them, but true for everybody! This is the definition of religious organisation.

    They are very cute, because the reason they can say 'it's true for everybody' is because they dress it all up as science, which is only very partially true, and you know, 'empirical science is reality' - so they think they ought to tell you what to believe. An intelligent man would see right through the charade of course.

    They have the literature (I'm not talking about scientific, but Dawkins, Hitchens....) the leaders, the finance, the events, the striving for a consensus reality among all atheists, their central tenet of anti-theism but again central to it, and what makes it different from a cultural/intellectual view is their pushing of their reality of life on all people regardless of the convictions of those people. They tell those people "You are wrong! Listen to my version of reality for only I know! It's merely science I tell you!'

    This is why today there is a bit of a gag of how militant atheists and even your average one 'just won't shut up about it all' with a :rolleyes: . Patently they try with much missionary zeal to win people to their worldview/ideology/semi-religion. People get cheesed off, and fairly so.

    The difference between most Christians in Europe, as well people like myself is: If people want to believe or not to believe in God, its fine. But if someone is a better person, improving themselves and those around for having a god then I simply say more power to them! It's not something that bothers me. What bothers me is the end result in the times we now live in.

    Atheism, Salafism and American evangelism are dangers, ideologies that must be dealt with wisely.

    EmmettInc wrote: »
    You obviously don't understand anything to do with quantum mechanics, or the principles of concept and reality, and you're just making up things at this stage... I value my time more than to have these conversations with people that aren't open to being proven wrong...


    People of all stripes like reading scientific material. Atheists have no right on them.
    EmmettInc wrote: »
    Prove God exists... If you cannot, then explain why he must in order for the universe to make sense... That would turn your hypothesis into a theory, but if you cannot then it remains a hypothesis- a poor one, but a hypothesis... Now if you're hypothesis can be disputed by by a better hypothesis, then it still is a hypothesis but is not as valid as a better one...


    Perhaps people should investigate the conundrum of empirical belief also. "Why do I believe that which is relative [the material] to be real?"

    'Prove god exists?' is but the last stand of an empiricist-only. It's his first and last question, that is all they know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    nagirrac wrote: »
    I also accept that I do not understand the underlying reality of the universe
    In fairness, you're right that no-one does. And, in that situation, there's no particular benefit in opting for a more or less extravagant explanation of reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    Eramen wrote: »
    I would support the notion that modern atheism is no longer a cultural movement but a semi-religious one because of their pushing on the general populace their one-time cultural views now fashioned as a universal reality that is not just true for them, but true for everybody! This is the definition of religious organisation.

    They have the literature (I'm not talking about scientific, but Dawkins, Hitchens....) the leaders, the finance, the events, the striving for a consensus reality among all atheists, their central tenet of anti-theism but again central to it, and what makes it different from a cultural/intellectual view is their pushing of their reality of life on all people regardless of the convictions of those people. They tell those people "You are wrong! Listen to my version of reality for only I know!'

    This is why today there is a bit of a gag of how militant atheists and even your average one 'just won't shut up about it all' with a :rolleyes: . Patently they try with much missionary zeal to win people to their worldview/ideology/semi-religion.

    The difference between most Christians in Europe, as well people like myself is: If people want to believe or not to believe in God, its fine. But if someone is a better person, improving themselves and those around for having a god then I simply say more power to them! It's not something that bothers me. What bothers me is the end result in the times we now live in.

    Atheism, Salafism and American evangelism are dangers, ideologies that must be dealt with wisely.





    People of all stripes like reading scientific material. Atheists have no right on them.




    Perhaps people should investigate the conundrum of empirical belief also. "Why do I believe that that which is relative [the material] to be real?"

    'Prove god exists?' is but the last stand of an empiricist-only. It's his first and last question, that is all they know.

    Saying atheism is like a religion is like saying abstinence is a sexual position... But to that point, whats wrong with Atheism being religion-like, it's based on logic so there spread of logic vs fairy tale is good.

    I never said science was exclusive to atheists, but I'd appreciate if theists would actually pay some attention to it.

    and

    Just saying something is "only" empirical, doesn't make it any less legitimate of a question, and in fact discrediting such challenges as "limited" proves just how desperate the challenger is...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Sarky wrote: »
    But you'll accept four 'philosophers' clapping eachother on the back and agreeing with eachother that there must be more.

    Harris, Dennett and Hitchens are/were all philosophers, Dawkins was a scientist but is now a philosopher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Harris, Dennett and Hitchens are/were all philosophers, Dawkins was a scientist but is now a philosopher.

    You know thats not what was meant... Now who's being literal... :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    Saying atheism is like a religion is like saying abstinence is a sexual position... But to that point, whats wrong with Atheism being religion-like, it's based on logic so there spread of logic vs fairy tale is good.

    I never said science was exclusive to atheists, but I'd appreciate if theists would actually pay some attention to it.

    and

    Just saying something is "only" empirical, doesn't make it any less legitimate of a question, and in fact discrediting such challenges as "limited" proves just how desperate the challenger is...




    I cruise these forums a little bit. Atheists in the utmost of logic I'm certain, at least to themselves, proclaim that all people are equal, society needs to be 'inclusive', religion is bad, secular societies are surely better, the utopia approaches, how best can we mock people of the out-group today, a dash of science here as a precaution, as if dropping a strand of lettuce on a double cheeseburger qualifies as healthy food. Enlightened bunch of lads.

    I don't believe this, call it logic or not. It's delusional at best.

    Atheist and Christian, if I be honest, are very similar in belief. In fact they come from the same backgrounds and family, work the same jobs, same education, aims, life, interests.. I reckon they should pull it together and stop the bull.

    Not many of these groups are logical when all is said, but they do try to be as best they can be as people, and that's really what matters. Christians have settled down, continued with their culture and religion, they aren't pretentious and in your face, in Europe and parts elsewhere.

    Atheists should learn from their brothers. Drop the bs, settle down and work hand in hand with the religious for a better country, culture, and common vision of the future.

    From an outside perceptive, Christians and Atheists do agitate each other, but atheism is now slightly worse a culprit in the west. Christian, atheist, same thing, same people, let's get to work, we've bigger fish to fry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    You know thats not what was meant... Now who's being literal... :D

    Sorry, now I get it. The only philosophers to be taken seriously and considered intelligent are those who deny the existance of God and make their living selling books and doing world tours to convert people to their view :).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Eramen wrote: »
    Yes, I observed the writing and the numbers but it is only when I made the information intelligible in my mind, through my understanding of the ideas of maths that it became understood as a proof. It's the consciousness that produces proof.

    It would be true whether you believed it or not, or whether you understood it or not. Your consciousness does nothing but allow you, personally, to understand it.
    Eramen wrote: »
    I'm not trying to Zombrex, I like the discussion of ideas!
    So you accept the point?
    Eramen wrote: »
    A person who is caught up their own desires, feeling, rewards, errors, pain, elation, embarrassment and anything else humans are liable to be sensitive to, creates eventual suffering physically and mentally in whatever form. It's a daily facet of our lives that is a part of our existence.

    But the man who questions what is the cause of all the former experiences; why is he acting/thinking in a certain way; to what ends he is moving and to why is he attached to feelings that usually end up in suffering, is surely a very intelligent person.

    Ok ... what does this have to do with the question of god?
    Eramen wrote: »
    Certainly the material rewards and living has increased since then.

    Do you count not dying of small pox as a "material reward"?
    Eramen wrote: »
    Evidence and proof are different, I'm using them in the mathematical / philosophical sense. You are using them legally.

    Evidence is anything that reveals or supports the truth or accuracy of a claim. That is what evidence is, whether it is mathematical or philosophical or legal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    Eramen wrote: »
    I cruise these forums a little bit. Atheists in the utmost of logic I'm certain, at least to themselves, proclaim that all people are equal, society needs to be 'inclusive', religion is bad, secular societies are surely better, the utopia approaches, how best can we mock people of the out-group today, a dash of science here as a precaution, as if dropping a strand of lettuce on a double cheeseburger qualifies as healthy food etc. Enlightened bunch of lads.

    I don't believe this, call it logic or not. It's delusional at best.

    Atheist and Christian, if I be honest, are very similar in belief. In fact they come from the same backgrounds and family, work the same jobs, same education, aims, life, interests.. I reckon they should stop the bull.

    Not many of these groups are logical when all is said, but they do try to be as best they can be as people, and that's really what matters. Christians have settled down, continued with their culture and religion, they aren't pretentious and in your face, in Europe and parts elsewhere.

    Atheists should learn from their brothers. Drop the bs, settle down and work hand in hand with the religious for a better country, culture, and common vision of the future.

    From an outside perceptive, Christians and Atheists do agitate each other, but atheism is now slightly worse a culprit in the west. Christian, atheist, same thing, same people, settle down, let's get to work, we've bigger fish to fry.

    You're right in where you're coming from, but that utopia will never happen as long as you have organised religion, as they profess authority... I'm not saying secular society is better, but at the same time, religion gets too much protection...

    You cannot out non-sense on the same level as sense and claim that it equates to a balance argument...

    My only problem with theism is that it is so unwilling to being proven wrong... Even if conclusive proof that god does not exist could be presented to a theist they would still not believe it, they would just come up with another cop-out, where as atheists are open to being proven wrong, just don't say the absence of evidence is itself evidence...


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    Okay, so science is limited, that we can all accept, but at least it doesn't fill the gaps in with whatever sounds best...

    Imagine this scenario:

    A man walks into a crowded room... He claims that he has been visited by an angel-like being, this being assures him that the universe and all existence has been created not by a god but by a being to be known as "HigherPower"... This being is all knowing, all seeing and all powerful, this being is also loving and caring and it is to him where all our "souls" go to live in paradise at his side when our life here on earth ends, for all eternity... And that he was asked to deliver this message to mankind... Now, this man has no record of mental illness nor does any of his recent ancestry...

    Would the crowded room:

    a) Believe him, based on blind faith and his "HigherPower" given authority
    b) Ask him questions to validate the claim
    c) Consider him mad as a bag of weasels
    d) Exit the room slowly and cautiously whilst avoiding eye contact
    e) other:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Sorry, now I get it. The only philosophers to be taken seriously and considered intelligent are those who deny the existance of God and make their living selling books and doing world tours to convert people to their view :).

    Nope, the only philosophers to be taken seriously are the ones who examine what we know and proffer what might be as opposed to the ones who arrange what we think we know to arrive at a preconceived conclusion...

    You can be intelligent and still be wrong about one thing... One thing that by the way has no baring on reality, due to the fact that it is only a concept...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    nagirrac wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    nagirrac wrote: »
    That can certainly be debated but the fact that so many scientists both historically and contemporary are believers in God suggests your probability conclusion is a fallacy.
    [...] it can be hard to find anybody in a senior scientific post who supports a single truth-claim made by a religious outfit.
    Ah, the old smart people do not believe in God argument and even taking it a step further the smarter you are the less likely you are to believe. Talk about a plea to authority.
    I'm the one appealing to authority?

    244154.GIF


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    Is it safe to change the tone of the conversation a small bit... As opposed to examining does go exist or not, ask yourself this question- Why do you believe in god... not why do you doubt or not believe in god, why do you believe in god?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    Nope, the only philosophers to be taken seriously are the ones who examine what we know and proffer what might be as opposed to the ones who arrange what we think we know to arrive at a preconceived conclusion

    I agree but you have it the wrong way round. Those you claim should be taken seriously are sophists and not philosophers.

    Dawkins, Harris, etc. are actually modern day sophists who use current scientific evidence to arrive at a preconceived conclusion that excludes God, and preach this conclusion in the pursuit of monetary gain. If Aristotle were around today he would have about as much time for them as he had for the sophists in his day. Philosophy is the pursuit of knowledge to attain personal wisdom, not to sell books.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm the one appealing to authority?

    Absolutely. Your claim is that most senior scientists do not believe any religious truth-claims and somehow this is relevant to the question of God's existance. How is that not an appeal to authority?

    Leaving aside the senior scientists who do believe these truth-claims (and there are many), why on earth would a scientist who is brilliant in one area of human endeavour have any more personal insight into the truth regarding the existance of God than anyone else?

    May as well say most plumbers believe in God so God must exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    I agree but you have it the wrong way round. Those you claim should be taken seriously are sophists and not philosophers.

    Dawkins, Harris, etc. are actually modern day sophists who use current scientific evidence to arrive at a preconceived conclusion that excludes God, and preach this conclusion in the pursuit of monetary gain. If Aristotle were around today he would have about as much time for them as he had for the sophists in his day. Philosophy is the pursuit of knowledge to attain personal wisdom, not to sell books.

    I've no bother with anyone making money off their chosen field of expertise, but to say that they have arrived at preconceived conclusions is not correct... They are happy to arrive at a conclusion which makes sense, that conclusion is that there is a very small likelihood that god exists... They are open to being proven wrong, but they cannot be... The true Sophists are in fact the clergy who proffer to have answers to all lives problems, and get paid very handsomely to do so... Given the meaning of sophism in it's rawest form, it almost exactly describes the catholic church of today in fact... But that's not a valid point in this regard... Just being a sophist doesn't mean you're wrong...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    Is it safe to change the tone of the conversation a small bit... As opposed to examining does go exist or not, ask yourself this question- Why do you believe in god... not why do you doubt or not believe in god, why do you believe in god?

    Many reasons, but if I had to commit to one I would say because we have freedom or rather free will. If you believe in a deterministic material reality and reflect on what that implies, it is very difficult to believe that humans have free will. From neuroscience we know that decisions are made by the brain before we are conscious of them. However, our mind can overrule those decisions. This leads me to the conclusion that we are not slaves to our brains and our freedom is God given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Many reasons, but if I had to commit to one I would say because we have freedom or rather free will. If you believe in a deterministic material reality and reflect on what that implies, it is very difficult to believe that humans have free will. From neuroscience we know that decisions are made by the brain before we are conscious of them. However, our mind can overrule those decisions. This leads me to the conclusion that we are not slaves to our brains and our freedom is God given.

    Yes, free will exists, but the thing you have have to understand is that we use that free will based on what we have previously been exposed to... A theoretical alternative reality exists when we are posed with a dilemma, but as we follow through with action or inaction that theoretical alternative reality ceases to exist... Therefore, our free will, all be it a true thing, is predicated that we can only choose one forward movement in space and time, to create one present reality... So, given that we cannot change that which has been done, and we know not what is coming or what will be (theoretically speaking) it only stands that everything is deterministic in the sense that reality is as it is, and will be as it will be, as a result of what was.
    Free will is a biological function, a real thing, a tool, but like anything else it is influenced entirely by the environment in which it exists, and what it has experienced, and all observable and comprehend-able factors thereto.

    Example:

    Big Bang ---- Lot's of time passes and events occur ---- and hey presto we're here now ---- I have innumerable options as to what I can do in this very moment in time, and in 5 minutes from now, everything from continue lie here typing and scratch my nose, to going into the next room and slapping my sleeping aunt with a fly swatter to getting dressed catching a taxi and heading to a night club... All these are options because I have free will, but I can only do one exactly five minutes from now... I cannot be doing all three at the exact same time, now my experience in life thus far teaches me that hitting my aunt will result in adverse consequences for me, going to the nightclub could be very fun, but I'd be tired tomorrow, and lying here scratching my nose is going to be rather inconsequential... But only one of these is going to be a reallity, or in fact none of them, the house I'm in could catch fire, or I could have to use the toilet, but in the end the series of events that started almost 13.7 billion years ago (apx) have lead to this moment in time and space, and as much as I have free will to do whatever I want in the fashion which I want, that can of coke I had half an hour ago, could really affect my plans to scratch my nose whilst lying here in this bed five minutes from now... Unless I wet myself, which I won't because I have free will, and will go to the bathroom, and who know's what fun could then ensue...

    So my point is this, yes free will exists, but what we do with it has already been decided, I know that seems hard to comprehend but it is the reality, I didn't believe it 12 months ago, but when I thought about it a bit more, it made sense, and in fact my previous opinions made no sense whatsoever in hindsight...

    So, the existence of free will doesn't stand up to scrutiny as a reason for there to be a god... And even if we did have true free will unaffected by any form of determinism, it would not be reasonable to think god gave it to us, rather that it was a consequence of evolution... I think it's also important o know that all living creatures exhibit almost identical free will to humans, but a dog might not snap at you for hitting him once, but the second time you might not get close enough to...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    I've no bother with anyone making money off their chosen field of expertise, but to say that they have arrived at preconceived conclusions is not correct... They are happy to arrive at a conclusion which makes sense, that conclusion is that there is a very small likelihood that god exists... They are open to being proven wrong, but they cannot be... The true Sophists are in fact the clergy who proffer to have answers to all lives problems, and get paid very handsomely to do so... Given the meaning of sophism in it's rawest form, it almost exactly describes the catholic church of today in fact... But that's not a valid point in this regard... Just being a sophist doesn't mean you're wrong...

    They argue their conclusion based on science, an endevour which says nothing on the question unless you are biased, so in this sense they are in complete concert with creationists.

    We certainly agree strongly on one point. I agree the Catholic church is the best example of sophism, and a blight on reason.. but its no different to strong atheism in that regard. We cannot have direct knowledge of God if he exists outside our material universe. I know outside our material universe is a difficult concept to many, and in particular scientists, but the only way to be aware of God is indirectly.

    What we have in common with God is our minds, we are a small subset of what he must be like. This is what should convince us that the world in terms of underlying reality is mental and not material. How can you listen to Beethoven's 9th and not agree? Can your dog compose that? If dogs evolved enough would they compose that? and even if they could do it physically like a monkey could randomly compose Shakespeare, why would they do it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    .. because we are storytelling chimps, I get it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    EmmettInc wrote: »
    So my point is this, yes free will exists, but what we do with it has already been decided, I know that seems hard to comprehend but it is the reality, I didn't believe it 12 months ago, but when I thought about it a bit more, it made sense, and in fact my previous opinions made no sense whatsoever in hindsight...

    So, the existence of free will doesn't stand up to scrutiny as a reason for there to be a god... And even if we did have true free will unaffected by any form of determinism, it would not be reasonable to think god gave it to us, rather that it was a consequence of evolution... I think it's also important o know that all living creatures exhibit almost identical free will to humans, but a dog might not snap at you for hitting him once, but the second time you might not get close enough to...

    That's what I was trying to explain. Your brain has already done all that work and made all those analytical comparisons and arrived at a conclusion. Your hand is literally already raised to hit your aunt.. but you get to override that emotion and decide to go for a drink instead.

    Animals do not exhibit anything like human free will. They exhibit awareness and intelligence but not free will.


  • Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Your hand is literally already raised to hit your aunt.. but you get to override that emotion and decide to go for a drink instead.

    Animals do not exhibit anything like human free will. They exhibit awareness and intelligence but not free will.

    That's not free will, it's self control.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭Doctor Strange


    nagirrac wrote: »

    Animals do not exhibit anything like human free will. They exhibit awareness and intelligence but not free will.

    Oh that is so wrong it's not even funny. How do you suggest the actions of an animal are determined?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    nagirrac wrote: »
    nagirrac wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    nagirrac wrote: »
    That can certainly be debated but the fact that so many scientists both historically and contemporary are believers in God suggests your probability conclusion is a fallacy.
    [...] it can be hard to find anybody in a senior scientific post who supports a single truth-claim made by a religious outfit.
    Ah, the old smart people do not believe in God argument and even taking it a step further the smarter you are the less likely you are to believe. Talk about a plea to authority.
    I'm the one appealing to authority?Absolutely. Your claim is that most senior scientists do not believe any religious truth-claims and somehow this is relevant to the question of God's existance. How is that not an appeal to authority?
    OK, I'll try and break this down for you into bite-sized thinklets:

    You: makes an appeal to authority.
    Me: points out that the authority says no such thing
    You: complains about me making an appeal to authority.
    Me: Dafuq?
    You: complains about me making an appeal to authority.

    Dafuq^2.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    That's what I was trying to explain. Your brain has already done all that work and made all those analytical comparisons and arrived at a conclusion. Your hand is literally already raised to hit your aunt.. but you get to override that emotion and decide to go for a drink instead.

    Animals do not exhibit anything like human free will. They exhibit awareness and intelligence but not free will.

    That's just not true... My point is far more profound than decision making, that's an outrageously simple concept... The point I make is that, that brain can retain analyze and instruct, but it is only limited to being able to analyze what it has been capable of retaining, on either a conscious or subconscious level... Therefore, in an almost butterfly affect way, every single event that occurred leading to my being here, affected how I got here... My decision, over which I have full control, is predicated on my experiences and it can be based on nothing else, and I can only make one decision at any given moment in time to proceed forward in space and time, thus making what were previously my alternative options, now nothing but a lost opportunity of sorts, of course I can do what I wish in the next happening of space and time, but again, whatever I do will be predicated on what I have experienced before, and that will be the reality...

    Also, animals do have free will, free will is far more than just over-riding animal instinct or raw, it is the basis of consciousness...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 47 EmmettInc


    nagirrac wrote: »
    They argue their conclusion based on science, an endevour which says nothing on the question unless you are biased, so in this sense they are in complete concert with creationists.

    We certainly agree strongly on one point. I agree the Catholic church is the best example of sophism, and a blight on reason.. but its no different to strong atheism in that regard. We cannot have direct knowledge of God if he exists outside our material universe. I know outside our material universe is a difficult concept to many, and in particular scientists, but the only way to be aware of God is indirectly.

    What we have in common with God is our minds, we are a small subset of what he must be like. This is what should convince us that the world in terms of underlying reality is mental and not material. How can you listen to Beethoven's 9th and not agree? Can your dog compose that? If dogs evolved enough would they compose that? and even if they could do it physically like a monkey could randomly compose Shakespeare, why would they do it?

    Could you compose Beethoven 9th?

    It seems you base your theistic faith on the basis that biology is amazing in some way... In particular neurology... But it's quite simple, we're not amazing... We're just not, it's arrogant for us to think we are, not that there is anything wrong with arrogance, but it is also ignorant to think we're amazing, and that's the problem...

    This is the problem with all humans, theist and atheist, we feel that we are somehow intrinsically special... It is this concept that has lead us to create "gods", great all powerful, all seeing , all knowing beings, and put us at the center of his master plan... We're nothing more than clusters of cells that are formed by clusters of atoms, formed billions of years ago in a supernova of sorts... We are not special, we are not miracles of biology, science as a whole, or religion, we're just very insignificant creature wandering around a planet, replicating, and using up resources in order to sustain our own lives and gain... There is nothing about us which requires a divine creator, not one thing, we are just "sophisticated" animals, at least by our standards... We attribute meaning to everything, and give things importance to us...
    Let's use your dog example, no, a dog cannot compose music, but would he want to?

    As for the monkey angel, no they cannot, they're no evolved enough to, that's the whole point of evolution...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    robindch wrote: »
    OK, I'll try and break this down for you into bite-sized thinklets:

    You: makes an appeal to authority.
    Me: points out that the authority says no such thing
    You: complains about me making an appeal to authority.
    Me: Dafuq?
    You: complains about me making an appeal to authority.

    Dafuq^2.

    You have to go back one more step to grasp the context and all the fallacies involved. Bear with me, I'm sure you will get it eventually.

    The statement was made that science having found no evidence for God is a probability argument for the likelihood of God's non existance. This is an example of the science fallacy, it is a logical fallacy to believe science can prove or disprove the existance of a God that created our observed universe. Some atheists use this fallacy and the probability argument is an example (read oldrnwiser's post on the subject). One of the points of evidence I highlighted to dismiss the science fallacy was to highlight that scientists can conduct science and also be religious. This is not an appeal to authority, this is stating a fact that brings clarity to the science fallacy question.

    Whether individual scientists are atheists, theists or deists says nothing on the question of what science tells us about God, as science tells us nothing about God. Science has done no research to study God's existance or non-existance that I am aware of, perhaps you can dig some up.

    Your response to my pointing out the science fallacy was to invoke an appeal to authority fallacy, "its hard to find senior scientists who are religious". Well, its not if you actually looked, Francis Collins head of the NIH for example, but that's not the point. You may as well say its hard to find a good plumber to teach me how to play guitar. They are unrelated subjects, why would a scientist know any more about the existance or non existance of God than a plumber or any other profession?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,724 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    nagirrac wrote: »
    The statement was made that science having found no evidence for God is a probability argument for the likelihood of God's non existance. This is an example of the science fallacy, it is a logical fallacy to believe science can prove or disprove the existance of a God that created our observed universe.
    That's not the argument. Noone here was made the argument the way you've phrased it.
    You've been repeatedly asked to provide an example of any atheist doing this. You failed to do so and ignored the question.

    And it's still not a fallacy.
    And you repeatedly use actual fallacies.
    And you have the stones to call other people sophists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Oh that is so wrong it's not even funny. How do you suggest the actions of an animal are determined?

    The actions of an animal are determined by its instinct (learned behavior that is genetically inherited), response to its environment, and if its a domestic animal how it has been trained. This has nothing to do with free will.

    It sounds like some people do not actually understand what free will is. Free will is not having multiple choices and choosing one, it is applying reason based on conscious awareness to the choice. If our brains are hard wired in terms of determinate outcomes, no matter how many times we went back and re-lived the same circumstances you would always make the same choice. There are many neuroscientists who make this claim and they are imho wrong.

    In terms of neuroscience, which is where most research on the subject is being conducted, there is one piece of evidence that blows apart the argument of determinate outcomes and that is neuroplasticity. The fact that we can rewire our brains by focussed thought means not alone do we have free will but we can control our minds and are not slaves to our mind/brain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    King Mob wrote: »
    That's not the argument. Noone here was made the argument the way you've phrased it.
    You've been repeatedly asked to provide an example of any atheist doing this. You failed to do so and ignored the question.

    And it's still not a fallacy.
    And you repeat use actual fallacies.
    And you have the stones to call other people sophists.


    Go back to post #303 and argue that it is not an example of the science fallacy. Perhaps read oldrnwiser's response a few posts below it for clarity.

    Continuing to declare there is no such thing as a science fallacy when it comes to the question of God simply highlights you do not understand the science fallacy. Sadly, it is rather typical of atheists who love to throw around accusations of logical fallacies but embrace the ones they find comforting. It is as good an example of sophism as you are likely to find, but you of course would be blind to it.


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