Faith Schools Segregating Migrant Children

You often hear that multiculturalism failed because the immigrants do not want to integrate. This shows that integration is not possible even if people genuinely try.
And is possible because of the usual suspects - religion and government.

Eramen wrote: »

Looking at examples of secular countries where religion has been outlawed/strongly suppressed we can see that 'education' was in fact not conducted on a 'first come, first served' basis nor in an 'inclusive' manner as you are implying it would happen in these secular societies. I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but I'd wager perhaps from the momentarily popular ideologies (egalitarian social progress etc) that are the bedrock of the culture of the modern West.

Secularism is not part of any 'culture' as it is found in countries on many different continents. There's also a distinction between banning all religion and simply not favouring one over the other at an State level.

These ideologies you speak of are relatively new and as such will need to be tweaked until it's 'just right'. Religion cannot be tweaked or adapted to changing societies as it a rigid system of beliefs. Thus secularism is the way forward.

The only thing my mam remembers from her Catholic school is being slapped around. She was certainly thought 'respect' but nothing else.

Eramen wrote: »

'First come, first serve' is a silly way of conducting education and learning, as talents, merit, and ability of individuals are made irrelevant - so as to accommodate an 'all-inclusive under-education' for all students where all traces of talent are sidelined. Everyone is not equally capable of receiving a 'mainstream education' of lecturing and standard testing, as peoples ability is different.

I agree that talents are sidelined and that this is atrocious. But I don't think Faith schools ever deal with this either. As for not everyone being equally capable, the 'smarter' students are the exception not the rule. If kids show extra potential, there should be grants provided for gifted schools or extra grinds.
Perhaps allowing kids to move up to a new class early would be helpful to keep them challenged.

To be honest a good teacher will do more than any 'policy' no matter what kind of school you have. Unfortunately we do not have enough of those.

Eramen wrote: »

Standards have been dropping continuously as to accommodate people who are patently unable to compete or progress at high levels, unable to be part of productive learning in certain fields of studies and work. We are seeing universal 'dumbing-down', because as common sense will tell you, the only point that people can be completely equal in learning or anywhere else is at the lowest level of understanding. And this base level is the 'new standard' of modern state-sponsored education.

So what happens to students with dyslexia? Are you suggesting we give them the ol' DUNCE hat??

I know a guy who's dyslexic and cannot read sheet music, but he can play any song on piano simply by listening to a recording of it only once. But he got rejected by many music schools in London because he could not read the musical notations and simply gave up. For someone who's obviously very talented he was discriminated based on his ability to read despite being an intuitive musician.

Also I'm pretty sure that the system of Higher level and Ordinary level (while not perfect) at least caters to differing abilities among students to some extent.

In smaller schools there are not enough staff/resources or students to warrant separating students at different levels.

Eramen wrote: »

Undesirable policy is having undesirable effects, and dare we call is 'progress', and people dance in the streets at the abysmal thing we call 'state/college education' - which actually entitles you intellectually-speaking to not very much at all.

So yes, there are undesirables. We either desire to be fruitful in our learning or we don't, and this will naturally disqualify some people. These people can be very useful elsewhere in society, but not in a situation where education is a means to certain skills or work features.

Intellectual is just a word for people who over think everything. Not all education should be intellectual. Some students learn better by 'doing' rather than simply reading the theory. That does not make them less intelligent. I know a guy who's a well respected engineer. He never went to university but learned 'in-the-field'... he's still a very in demand guy (even in the recession) as many graduates had all the theory but didn't know how to use it!!

Eramen wrote: »

This kind of discrimination is intelligence. We discriminate between things of different and unequal value all the time, such as what we eat, McDonald vs a balanced bean-salad, obviously of different value.. It requires our discrimination to be understood. We do this all the time, life is based on discrimination: what we do with our time, what job we work, what friends we have, what partner we choose to romance.

And how do you propose we discriminate? Interview kids first before junior infants? They're not exaclty the most articulate..:rolleyes: they already do entrance exams for secondary schools to keep students at simliar levels in the same class. (there were 5 levels in my school in each year). But simply rejecting people from schools cos of mental snobbery isn't a good thing. Education is a right, your salad and your partner is a choice.

Choosing is not discrimination, exclusion is.

Eramen wrote: »

"Forging an inclusive Ireland" is talk of political science, not education. We should wish to build better people, in education and elsewhere, and to do this we must attract the most suitable people into these fields of learning. We can't accept everyone when we have limited resources, or when people are inherently of different value when we consider them in relation to their education.

Why have atheists fallen into an understanding of reality that has overtly politically Fabian-marxist, unscientific, mediocre, and counter-productive? Only people who watch copious amounts of tv and believed everything they heard in politically-charged modules at college worry about 'inclusiveness'. I worry about getting the job done, and doing it to our very best. Talent before politics!

I never learned about 'inclusiveness' at college even though I had 3 hour law lectures as part of my health and safety course.

Everything you mentioned about 'skill' first reminds me of Art Schools. You go to a school to do a portfolio but you're told what to do and everyone's portfolio looks the same at the end. I know a student who was rebuked for trying to think outside the box and done her portfolio in her own style.

She was told that would learn creativity in University:rolleyes:. The University accepted her but rejected many of the other students who done what teacher said.

No matter what the system will always fail some people but in the example above even schools that claim to emphasis talent and that filter students by ability still have inherent flaws.

jank wrote: »

Yes, great to post on the Internet but there is a thing called property rights which is protected under the constitution. If you really really want to play that game (I don't ) then how much does the state owe religious organisations for the past 250 years for providing education and health services?

More than likely a lot less than the RCC owes the generations of Irish people who have been subjected to physical, sexual and mental abuse in it's name, if a monetary value were to be placed on such things. Particularly when you consider that indoctrination is a form of abuse.

I wonder, do Gaelscoils perform the sacraments as well?

If it does, that'll pretty much re-affirm my image of Irish as the language of Peig rather than the Seoige sisters.

jank wrote: »

The fact that you are free to post pretty much what you want* on the Internet stats otherwise. You are free to of course define what you mean and back it up.

*libel and kiddie porn excluded of course.

Not quite sure what freedom of speech on the Internet has to do with anything?

In idea of 'liberal western society' includes freedom of religion (and freedom from religion). Therefore health, education and legal systems should be free from religious influence. Not the case in Ireland I am afraid.