Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

UCDVet · 03-03-2013 07:21PM

I don't normally talk about this, and I'd be way to embarrassed to talk about it in person but....

I'm also transgendered.

It's very hard for people to understand what it is like to be a woman trapped in a man's body. Yes, I have the traditional male organs....but my essence, my soul, is that of a woman.

It's hard to face the discrimination day after day. I just want to be treated like a woman. I want to use the women's washroom, change in the women's locker room, shower in the women's shower....I just want to be accepted for who I am.

Adding to mess, the 'woman' that I am, deep down inside....is also a Lesbian. So, when I do walk into the women's shower or locker room; it's only natural that I want to hit on them. I mean, come'on, just because I'm a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body - I should be given the same rights and treatment as women, if that's how I self-identify.

Troll banned

Czarcasm · 03-03-2013 07:33PM

MadsL wrote: »

Lie. One person has said that.

No, that is the position you have trying to foist on people so that you can then crucify them for it. NOBODY has supported that position yet you persist with this zombie strawman you created.

The stench of irony off that statement is almost palpable. I'm not looking to foist anything on anybody tbh, nor crucify them for it.

I wasn't even aware I'd created a strawman (Correct me if I'm wrong- a hypothetical situation posed to divert from the actual discussion?), again- woeful stench of irony.

MadsL wrote: »

Because his post had the flavour of "lifestyle choice" bolloxology about it and I called him on it, was it that hard to see that?

It didn't, but in your usual enthusiasm to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately agree with your opinion, you read far too much into the post and extracted and used one sentence to dismiss phil's opinion.

And my user name is MadsL. Not Mad.

You're quite right, you don't sound mad either, MadsL, at least not as mad as some posters who have been left frustrated by your continuous attempts to twist, dodge, construe what isn't written and general refusal to engage in the discussion in any meaningful manner.

The sum total effect of your contributions to the thread have been to frustrate other posters and create a whole field of strawmen, foisting your faux superior intellect on other posters in the thread who were engaging in the discussion but then couldn't be àrsed to continue when they got sick of your cherry picking.

The only reason I've tried to stay with the thread is because it's less about me flexing my intellectual muscles, and more about discussing an issue in which I'm interested in hearing opinions and perspectives from all sides, not just dismissing the opinions of those I disagree with.

MadsL · 03-03-2013 07:57PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The stench of irony off that statement is almost palpable. I'm not looking to foist anything on anybody tbh, nor crucify them for it.

I wasn't even aware I'd created a strawman (Correct me if I'm wrong- a hypothetical situation posed to divert from the actual discussion?), again- woeful stench of irony.

You keep raising a hypothetical situation that NOBODY on this thread has proposed, this is, by my count the third time you have raised it. NO-ONE is making that argument, yet you want to discuss it and project it onto supporters of this family. If anything stinks it is that.

It didn't, but in your usual enthusiasm to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately agree with your opinion, you read far too much into the post and extracted and used one sentence to dismiss phil's opinion.

Dismiss? He was welcome to justify his position. Philologos is big lad in posting terms, well able to defend himself. Perhaps you just liked having some ammunition for yet another of your personal attacks on me.

You're quite right, you don't sound mad either, MadsL, at least not as mad as some posters who have been left frustrated by your continuous attempts to twist, dodge, construe what isn't written and general refusal to engage in the discussion in any meaningful manner.

Yawn, another personal attack.

The sum total effect of your contributions to the thread have been to frustrate other posters and create a whole field of strawmen, foisting your faux superior intellect on other posters in the thread who were engaging in the discussion but then couldn't be àrsed to continue when they got sick of your cherry picking.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I disrupt your jolly "lets ridicule the family" outraged tone? I see you now want to have a debate, rather than your earlier sarcastic barbs directed at the mother. Czarcasm, how this thread has changed you!

The only reason I've tried to stay with the thread is because it's less about me flexing my intellectual muscles, and more about discussing an issue in which I'm interested in hearing opinions and perspectives from all sides, not just dismissing the opinions of those I disagree with.

I see. so you earlier posts like this:

Czarcasm wrote: »

You could be right Jim, I'm hoping that one day he'll come out of his shell and present as either a tortoise or a turtle, I'll just have to wait around until he's decided for himself and then I can support him and love him and squeeze him all tight, not squeeze too tight though or he'll pop out of his shell and he'll look like a human while I'm left holding an empty husk.

I'll turn to my wife and lament the fact that my son is just a former shell of himself

Were you being sensitive to the trans community and wanting to opinions and perspectives from all sides. Don't insult my intelligence, you arrived to mock and decided to stay for the scrap. If you don't like what I post, then put me on ignore. Or go back to making funny posts, it is what you are best at.

Czarcasm · 03-03-2013 08:07PM

MadsL wrote: »

Were you being sensitive to the trans community and wanting to opinions and perspectives from all sides. Don't insult my intelligence, you arrived to mock and decided to stay for the scrap. If you don't like what I post, then put me on ignore. Or go back to making funny posts, it is what you are best at.

I've never put anyone on ignore in all my years on this site (yes, you read that right), and I see no need to start now. You did mention earlier this thread wasn't about you so I propose we get back to discussing the issue at hand and drop this silly back and forth before the Mods step in and start handing out infractions or worse lock the thread for descending into an embarrassing off topic back and forth.

I'll come back later when hopefully things have calmed down and I've had a chance to clear my head.

MadsL · 03-03-2013 08:10PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I've never put anyone on ignore in all my years on this site (yes, you read that right), and I see no need to start now. You did mention earlier this thread wasn't about you so I propose we get back to discussing the issue at hand and drop this silly back and forth before the Mods step in and start handing out infractions or worse lock the thread for descending into an embarrassing off topic back and forth.

I'll come back later when hopefully things have calmed down and I've had a chance to clear my head.

Fair play. Hey, I don't want a personal spat either.

<offers handshake>

philologos · 04-03-2013 02:48PM

ashers222 wrote: »

This, I agree with this. I just think that there are differences in opinion as to what is acceptable in order for some people to feel comfortable in their own skin. Coy identifies as a girl and really, this should be acceptable.

My point was to say that perhaps people should try to help people be happy living by the gender they were assigned at birth first before any consideration of anything else.

ashers222 · 04-03-2013 03:29PM

philologos wrote: »

My point was to say that perhaps people should try to help people be happy living by the gender they were assigned at birth first before any consideration of anything else.

Don't think gender is that important personally. If they're already happy why try to change them?

philologos · 04-03-2013 03:49PM

ashers222 wrote: »

Don't think gender is that important personally. If they're already happy why try to change them?

Why change them? Surely that's more an argument for those who insist on gender changes before considering if its possible for a child to be happy in their own skin first.

ashers222 · 04-03-2013 03:50PM

philologos wrote: »

Why change them? Surely that's more an argument for those who insist on gender changes before considering if its possible for a child to be happy in their own skin first.

oh I'm not advocating surgery, far from it.

TommyKnocker · 04-03-2013 03:51PM

philologos wrote: »

My point was to say that perhaps people should try to help people be happy living by the gender they were assigned at birth first before any consideration of anything else.

How do you suggest that you help somebody who is born with male genitalia , but who's brain is hardwired at birth to see themselves as female?

What gender was such a person assigned at birth?

I have no gender identity issues, but IMHO asking somebody who is born male but who's brain is wired as female or visa versa to live in accordance with their "physical" gender would not be to that persons benefit.

philologos · 04-03-2013 04:50PM

I don't deny that there are a tiny amount of cases where that is true. I think in cases where it is claimed first policy should be to encourage people to be happy in their own skin, or else take more serious action.

I don't believe every claimed case is gender dysphoria though.

AgathaC · 04-03-2013 05:10PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

How do you suggest that you help somebody who is born with male genitalia , but who's brain is hardwired at birth to see themselves as female?

What gender was such a person assigned at birth?

I have no gender identity issues, but IMHO asking somebody who is born male but who's brain is wired as female or visa versa to live in accordance with their "physical" gender would not be to that persons benefit.

Do you think at 18 months old your brain really knows wether it's male or female?, considering most children can't string a full sentence till after 24 months,

MadsL · 04-03-2013 05:18PM

AgathaC wrote: »

Do you think at 18 months old your brain really knows wether it's male or female?, considering most children can't string a full sentence till after 24 months,

Please read the thread, no decisions about this child were made at 18 months.
This is just getting tiresome correcting this misapprehension.

kunst nugget · 04-03-2013 05:33PM

I think they should draw a dividing line down the middle of the child and dress up one side as a girl and the other as a boy and then check each day to see which side looks the happiest. That way all sides will be catered for.

Czarcasm · 04-03-2013 05:40PM

AgathaC wrote: »

Do you think at 18 months old your brain really knows wether it's male or female?, considering most children can't string a full sentence till after 24 months,

What WAS actually done was the parents retrospectively diagnosed the child as transgendered, saying that the child exhibited female behaviours at 18 months, and then claimed the child announced around when they were four years of age that they were a girl.

The rest, as they say, well, the parents hoped to make history anyway touring the child on the chat show circuit instead of actually approaching the AMA to find a clinical psychologist and not a quack who would actually properly observe the behaviour of the child and advise accordingly.

Iwasfrozen · 04-03-2013 05:41PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think they should draw a dividing line down the middle of the child and dress up one side as a girl and the other as a boy and then check each day to see which side looks the happiest. That way all sides will be catered for.

You're forgetting camp man and butch girl, better quarter him!

MadsL · 04-03-2013 05:50PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

What WAS actually done was the parents retrospectively diagnosed the child as transgendered, saying that the child exhibited female behaviours at 18 months, and then claimed the child announced around when they were four years of age that they were a girl.

The rest, as they say, well, the parents hoped to make history anyway touring the child on the chat show circuit instead of actually approaching the AMA to find a clinical psychologist and not a quack who would actually properly observe the behaviour of the child and advise accordingly.

You persist in misrepresenting the family. Why do you keep attacking them in this totally unfounded way???
The Mathis family have given ONE interview! as has been pointed out to you before.

Can you stop spreading lies about them please.

Czarcasm · 04-03-2013 06:00PM

MadsL wrote: »

You persist in misrepresenting the family. Why do you keep attacking them in this totally unfounded way???

Can you stop spreading lies about them please.

Fine, since you insist on specifics I'll use the term "media circus" instead.

MadsL · 04-03-2013 06:03PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Fine, since you insist on specifics I'll use the term "media circus" instead.

I'll keep it simple. They have done one interview in a whole show dedicated to transgendered.

How many shows have they done? Simple question.

Czarcasm · 04-03-2013 06:21PM

MadsL wrote: »

I'll keep it simple. They have done one interview in a whole show dedicated to transgendered.

How many shows have they done? Simple question.

One show. Now. Stop nit picking when you know well what was meant. It's painful tbh and unnecessary.

MadsL · 04-03-2013 06:38PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

One show. Now. Stop nit picking when you know well what was meant. It's painful tbh and unnecessary.

It is not nitpicking, it is me calling you out on this lie you are peddling about the familly doing the "chat show circuit" or the "media circus" It simply isn't true.

MadsL · 04-03-2013 06:44PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The rest, as they say, well, the parents hoped to make history anyway touring the child on the chat show circuit instead of actually approaching the AMA to find a clinical psychologist and not a quack who would actually properly observe the behaviour of the child and advise accordingly.

Who was this quack you know so much about? Could you name her so we can see what a quack she is.

jaffacakesyum · 04-03-2013 07:36PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't deny that there are a tiny amount of cases where that is true. I think in cases where it is claimed first policy should be to encourage people to be happy in their own skin, or else take more serious action.

I don't believe every claimed case is gender dysphoria though.

Why do you say tiny amount of cases? Have you read some research that I don't know about that shows only a tiny percentage of cases of gender dysphoria reported are genuine? Or is that you just wishing that to be the case?

Links234 · 05-03-2013 06:54PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Why do you say tiny amount of cases? Have you read some research that I don't know about that shows only a tiny percentage of cases of gender dysphoria reported are genuine? Or is that you just wishing that to be the case?

Phil isn't entirely wrong though, it's not a tiny percentage, but rather 20%

For reference, Dr. Norman Spack is the leading specialist in dealing with gender dysphoria in children, and here he speaks about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk7655odHPY

We also know that a lot of children who identify with the other gender often grow up to be gay or lesbian or bisexual.

What Phil is dead wrong about is that you still don't try and 'fix' the children or force them to identify with their birth gender, you allow them to be themselves and express themselves, and you support them. That is what the best practice for these children is, you wait and see if the identification persists or if they grow out of it. If the identification is particularly strong then they're probably transgender, but it's only when the children reach the age of puberty will anyone truly know because if you're trans then that is when the **** really hits the fan. It is only then that blockers or hormone treatments are considered as an option.

So what Coy's parents are doing is absolutely the correct course of action. Is she definitely trans? Maybe, maybe not, and nobody can really say, but her parents trying to do what is best for her. That's what's so frustrating about this thread, so many people are willing to completely and utterly misrepresent the parents, invent motivations and strawman narratives about them. Coy might grow up and identify as a boy, in which case her parents are still going to be just as supportive, or she might not and she may grow up to be a remarkable young woman.

But as I've said before, this is nothing new at all. so many parents and children have been down this road, and Coy's parents are following in their footsteps and considering what is best to do in the situation they find themselves, they have the support of doctors and psychologists. and today we're seeing young adults who were indeed trans and were able to start hormone treatment at a young age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGh_DdzLzdI

This is a fantastic documentary about one such young woman

Jimoslimos · 05-03-2013 08:10PM

Links234 wrote: »

We also know that a lot of children who identify with the other gender often grow up to be gay or lesbian or bisexual.

What Phil is dead wrong about is that you still don't try and 'fix' the children or force them to identify with their birth gender, you allow them to be themselves and express themselves, and you support them. That is what the best practice for these children is, you wait and see if the identification persists or if they grow out of it. If the identification is particularly strong then they're probably transgender, but it's only when the children reach the age of puberty will anyone truly know because if you're trans then that is when the **** really hits the fan. It is only then that blockers or hormone treatments are considered as an option.

So what Coy's parents are doing is absolutely the correct course of action. Is she definitely trans? Maybe, maybe not, and nobody can really say, but her parents trying to do what is best for her. That's what's so frustrating about this thread, so many people are willing to completely and utterly misrepresent the parents, invent motivations and strawman narratives about them. Coy might grow up and identify as a boy, in which case her parents are still going to be just as supportive, or she might not and she may grow up to be a remarkable young woman.

But as I've said before, this is nothing new at all. so many parents and children have been down this road, and Coy's parents are following in their footsteps and considering what is best to do in the situation they find themselves, they have the support of doctors and psychologists. and today we're seeing young adults who were indeed trans and were able to start hormone treatment at a young age.

Sorry Links but I have to disagree vehemently with early intervention. Until the child has fully experienced puberty they simply cannot make judgements on whether they feel their gender is 'wrong'. That's when secondary sex characteristics develop. Postponing that for awhile doesn't help

How can any child truly profess to being unhappy with their male body when the only thing that distinguishes them from female classmates is a small organ used for urinating? Everything else is cosmetic, clothes, hair, etc.

Children who haven't passed through puberty don't have the tools to make those life-changing decisions on their gender. Psychologists (or endocrinologists with little knowledge of psychology) don't have those tools either and prescribing hormones on a hunch on what may develop is extremely irresponsible.

I do however see the catch-22 for TG individuals who identify from an early age. As I said the secondary sex characteristics are what largely defines male from female, facial hair, breast development, etc and it's these which are often first targeted in transition. Yes it is true if development is stopped pre or early pubescent then the appearance of the individual will be noticeably more feminine (or masculine in the reverse). However hormone treatment and surgery is infinitely safer (both physically and psychologically) for fully mature adults than kids or teenagers, plus you eliminate those cases where identifying as a different gender as a child is something that is grown out of through puberty.

philologos · 06-03-2013 12:44AM

Links234 wrote: »

So what Coy's parents are doing is absolutely the correct course of action. Is she definitely trans? Maybe, maybe not, and nobody can really say, but her parents trying to do what is best for her. That's what's so frustrating about this thread, so many people are willing to completely and utterly misrepresent the parents, invent motivations and strawman narratives about them. Coy might grow up and identify as a boy, in which case her parents are still going to be just as supportive, or she might not and she may grow up to be a remarkable young woman.

Then the argument should be leave him alone until a later age instead of messing about with this now.

This is where I feel it is borderline abusive. Maybe, maybe not? What the heck? That's not much to base such a ground breaking decision about what gender a child is.

That's reckless and irresponsible at best to me.

That's some of the most frustrating things I've read in a very long time.

clairefontaine · 06-03-2013 12:47AM

philologos wrote: »

Then the argument should be leave him alone until a later age instead of messing about with this now.

This is where I feel it is borderline abusive. Maybe, maybe not? What the heck? That's not much to base such a ground breaking decision about what gender a child is.

That's reckless and irresponsible at best to me.

That's some of the most frustrating things I've read in a very long time.

What makes you think they were messing about and the child didn't lead the way in this?

philologos · 06-03-2013 12:51AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What makes you think they were messing about and the child didn't lead the way in this?

There's a difference between a child saying something and having clear medical and biological grounds to agree.

To do think that if a child repeatedly claims that they are a cat that it means that they should be identifying as a cat at school?

It's absolutely nuts to say ah well we don't know so we'll just say he's a girl and he can change his mind later. That's fundamentally wrong and I don't care how you twist it.

Czarcasm · 06-03-2013 12:58AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What makes you think they were messing about and the child didn't lead the way in this?

A four year old child leading the parents? Really? Then there's definitely something wrong with the parents that'd allow themselves to be led by a four year old child!

I can just imagine the child-

"I'm a girl and I want to be famous, lets go on the Katie Couric show and I'll be all special, oh, and I want special dispensation to use the girl's bathrooms in school, I won't settle for the nurses station and I'll fight them in court if I have to, well, you'll do that for me too since I'm now only six, Oh and I don't want to go to school any more, now I want to be home schooled. Make it so!"

Parents: "Isn't she adorable."

Give me strength!

clairefontaine · 06-03-2013 01:01AM

philologos wrote: »

There's a difference between a child saying something and having clear medical and biological grounds to agree.

To do think that if a child repeatedly claims that they are a cat that it means that they should be identifying as a cat at school?

I honestly don't know. Cats don't go to school. If the child genuinely thought they were a cat, they'd be demanding fish and eating cat food and not going to school but in intensive psych treatments. And if they are not doing all of those things, then a part of them knows they are human and that part can be reached and worked on I would imagine.

But I don't necessarily think the parents are to blame for this, they are in a very tough position. I doubt this is just a case of a child saying something, this is probably a child who takes them to the doll sections at the toy shop, who insists on wearing dresses, who truly believes he is female.

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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