2013 NFL DRAFT

TO. wrote: »

You are being extremely picky just to stock up your own opinion he isn't that good. He was 5th in all Dline guys and only by 0.04 of second on the 2nd best guy. Out of all Dline and Linebackers he was 15th again 0.04 seconds on being top 7. 4.35 in the 20 yard shuttle is very good especially when you add his other results. You would expect any Top Pass Rusher or Dline or Linebacker to be within 3.40 and quicker on the shuttles as it proves Lateral agility, quickness and how flexible they are. It also shows quick footwork all of which is key for guys moving quick to make tackles or rush the QB.

I'd hardly call expecting someone to put him good numbers before crowning his combine impressive as "picky". His number were not great, no matter how you try and spin them.

Dion Jordan:
248lbs - 4.60 40 yard - 32.5 vert - 4.35 shuttle - 7.02 3 cone - 10.2 broad

Devin Taylor:
266lbs - 4.72 - 35 vert - 4.30 shuttle - 6.89 3 cone - 10.8 broad


Ziggy Ansah:
272lbs - 4.63 - 34.5 - 4.26 - 7.11 - 9ft 10 broad.


Considering Taylor is 18bls heavier and Ansah 23lbs heavier Jordan numbers at 248lbs look pedistrian. Taylor beats him in every category except the 40 time.


When Jordan is compared to previous 1st round picks at his weight who've gone on to do well in the NFL


Bruce Irvin #15
245lbs - 4.49 40 yards - 33.5 vert - 4.03 shuttle - 6.70 3 cone - 10.3 broad

Von Miller
246lbs -4.53 40 yard - 4.06shuttle - 6.7 3cone - 37vert - 10ft 6in broad

Clay Matthews:
240 lb - 4.67 40 yards - 4.18 shuttle - 6.90 3cone - 35½ vert - 10 ft 1 in broad



Where Matthews was draft is about the spot Jordan should go, certainly not at the spot Von Miller went.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Where Matthews was draft is about the spot Jordan should go, certainly not at the spot Von Miller went.

I'm a bit confused what your argument is - is it that he shouldn't be drafted highly, or there's no real potential as a pass rusher?

My argument was against the latter, where you said he had no real potential as a pass rusher. But now you're comparing his underwhelming combine numbers and where he should be drafted as a result to Clay Matthews, one of the most effective pass rushers in the NFL? Who, might I add as a USC fan, was no pass-rushing prodegy in college.

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

I'm a bit confused what your argument is - is it that he shouldn't be drafted highly, or there's no real potential as a pass rusher?

My argument was against the latter, where you said he had no real potential as a pass rusher. But now you're comparing his underwhelming combine numbers and where he should be drafted as a result to Clay Matthews, one of the most effective pass rushers in the NFL? Who, might I add as a USC fan, was no pass-rushing prodegy in college.

A bit of both I suppose. Everyone has a potential, question is how much and how likely it is to be filled. I think he'll be a excellent coverage LB and a probably situational pass-rusher. I'd want to know how strong the guy is, from the tapes he doesn't seem hugely strong. I didn't see him bull-rushing or physical dominating many OL from what I did see.


I didn't compare him to Matthews, I just said that about where teams should start to consider to draft him. Matthews might not have rushed much in college but his combine showed he good potential for it. My comparison to Matthews was "here's a guy who had a good combine, notice the difference".

TO. wrote: »

So basically you are saying anyone who has an impressive draft will go on to be great in the NFL? Plenty of guys have had hugely impressive combines and choked in the pros or never made it. So a poor use of the word impressive to begin with. But you seem to be all over the place as to what you are debating.

No of course I am not saying that, not sure how you came to that conclusion tbh. I'm not sure how I am all over the place either. I said his combine wasn't great, it wasn't. I've said I use the combine to gauge how these could pan out at the next level. Not sure which part in confusing?

TO. wrote: »

So all those scouts and analysts who also think so are wrong also? His stock has clearly increased and Teams opinion of him have gone up. But hey that is their opinion right? No one said he will be great in the NFL but many believe he will get chosen top 10 due to guess what? An impressive combine.

It is their opinion, and in my opinion they are wrong. The same scouts/analysis who creamed their pants over Gholston were wrong then as well. At the end of the day there will never be a combine where a player did impressive, the media will want to hype it all up, the agents will hype it all up. Scouts will hype players they don't rate up so some other teams takes it on board.

TO. wrote: »

Irrelevant really. As I said this years draft is no where near compared to the last 3 or 4 for talent. But it doesn't mean guys cant have impressive combines.

It does to me.

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You're at nothing if you're looking at the combine to tell you who will be a good pass rusher and who wont. If you're saying that Jordan won't because his numbers weren't as pretty as Matthews, Irvine, Miller etc, I'd ask you to go and take a look at Aldon Smith. Numbers not as pretty as those guys, not even as pretty as Jordan's, but he's still pretty damn good. Then there's the guys who post amazing combine numbers, and do nothing - see Aaron Curry.

The combine gets so much attention because people are bored, and they miss football. It's horrendously over-analysed, and to me, the physical drills at the combine are very close, if not at the bottom of the evaluation of a player. There is no correlation between a strong combine and an impressive NFL career, just the same as there is no correlation between a poor combine and a poor NFL career. Put pads on these players and having them line up opposite full grown men twice their size - now that's an evaluation.

The only thing, to me, Jordan should be judged on to fans - without access to 1-on-1 workouts, interviews, previous coach evaluations/testimonies etc. - is game tape. And in that regard, I think he looks pretty damn good.

I disagree. I think not looking at combine numbers is pretty flawed when judging pass-rushers. It's not a 100% science though, you'll get guys like Smith who wasn't brilliant. No idea why you mention Curry though, he's a guy who's combine was poor and well below what you'd want when looking for a pass rusher. Running in a straight line does not make a great pass-rusher. Curry shuttle was 4.51 ad his 3 cone was 7.18 at 254lbs, pretty brutal really. If you followed the combine numbers you'd filter out far more Aaron Currys than Aldon Smiths. For every other position I'd pay little attention to it though.

TO. wrote: »

Many 3-4 ends don't depend on a a bull rush and power. In fact most of them back up their power with the agility and movement. Even if you look at the strongest pass rushers in the NFL most of their damage is done on how fast they get out of their stance and how agile they are. They catch the Tackle on his back foot and power then actually is unnecessary. It is all about movement. Hence why if you watch a team that uses a 3-4 system you will see their pass rushers perform more agility drills than power drills.

So if you were looking at tape expecting to see a college pass rusher use his strength over speed and agility you would in fact be wasting your time. But having siad that Jordan's main strengths are his agility and his long reach. Who knows if he will ever be successful in the NFL but he has a lot of the intangibles needed to be a solid pass rusher. Up to him now to prove it.

Bull-rush was the wrong way to word it alright. As you say for 3-4OLb it will be speed mainly but he needs power. If he doesn't have it then it's an easy situation for the Oline to push the OLB wide knowing he doesn't have enough strength to do anything else. An OLB will still need a strength and power to to be able to fool the OL. He'll need the ability to switch quickly from trying to go on the outside to simply going straight at the Oline man and knokcing him back through strength/OL being off-balance. Even something like a quick spin move is huge. In the tapes I've seen I have never seen Jordan knock an OL back a few yards when rushing, he needs to do that. Every time he rushed he simply tried to rush the edge and it was fairly easy to defend.

TO. wrote: »

You have it wrong to be honest. The power is not used to fool the tackle. It is how he uses his arms rip and swim moves etc etc add a long reach and quick arm movement mixed with his footwork and agility strength is not the main key for a Pas Rusher in the 3-4 system. Obviously these days NFL Pass rushers are man mountains and as soon as they leave college and hit the gym in the Pros they bulk up more and you get the impression NFL pass rushers depend on strength.

The best pass rushers are all about quick agile movement with quick hand and arms with a long reach. The power should come natural to a NFL Defensive linemen/OLB.

I didn't say strength is the main key. It's obviously quick, fast intial movement - it's the main reason I'm not impressed with Jordan. He doesn't have that great intial movement/agility. The second probably is he doesn't seem to have much strength either, or any other pass-rushing move. He's good in a straight line though.

TO. wrote: »

Not all the time. True most Offensive tackles would like to keep you outside the pocket and walk you around it. And the more the Pass rushers goes out there the better tackles will gladly keep him there. But on the flip side to that, fast agile rushers hope to reach the tackles limits and play the odds the tackle has bad footwork and agility himself. The more a pass rusher leads a tackle outside it can open up an inside lane where the rusher then cuts back on the tackle and turns him.

What is a given that Jordan has the necessary agility and speed and footwork and arm/hands to be a NFL pass rusher. If power is an issue any team will bulk him up. Power is very fixable and most scouts and teams know this.

To reach the edge though you need to be very very quick. Von Miller is very very quick he but also has a great body dip which is a huge help. I don't think that is a given at all, certainly doesn't show it in the tapes or in the combine numbers. Even if he did NFL will need to bulk him up and hope it has little to no effect on his agility.

So, who are your binkies this year? Eagle Eye had a good thread last year that I wish there was more posts in. You nominated 1 top-end prospect who is your favourite, and 2 lower round "value" binkies that you think will be a steal.

I had David DeCastro as my top end guy last year, but an MCL/ACL injury pretty much rendered his first season as a write off. My two value binkies had polar opposite seasons. While Kelechi Osemele has a dream start to his NFL career by shutting Justin Smith out of the Super Bowl and winning the PFF Super Bowl Game Ball, Alameda Ta'amu was busy being chased by police while driving drunk, crashing his car, and then taking off his shirt to pretend he wasn't the driver - resulting in him being cut and is currently team-less. A classic case of you win some, you lose some.



This year, my top-end guy is of course Matt Barkley. It's probably a bias selection, but people see a disappointing season last year considering the hype and figure he's over-rated. I still think some franchise will get a steal with him. It's so unbelievably rare to have a kid start at QB every game from his freshman season at high school, through to his senior year at USC (save for the last 2 games missed with injury). QBs just don't play as freshman in both high school and college, and then stay on for their senior year. Every year you get guys proclaimed "great leaders" - Barkley takes that to a new level. Everybody you hear talk about him will tell you how much he drives on those around him. Teams will love his 4 year's exposure to one of the most pro-friendly offences in college football, and how he directed that offence - he loves football and has been praised for his nerdish love of the X's and O's of play design. Albert Breer reported yesterday that, unsurprisingly, he blew teams away in interviews at the combine. I won't deny that the USC fan in me gets carried away with Barkley, but I would still be confident drafting him in the first round if I needed a QB. Honorable mention to Tyrann Mathieu, but the USC love wins out every time.



My value guys would be Da'Rick Rogers (WR, Tennessee Tech) and Christine Michael (RB, Texas A&M). I was looking forward to drafting Rogers in college fantasy football last year until he got kicked out of Tennessee not long before our draft. He enrolled at Tennessee Tech and had a solid year, with double digit TDs but it doesn't do him justice. Cordarelle Patterson and Justin Hunter should be drafted highly, but it's not impossible that Rogers could be the most talented receiver to come from the 2011 Vols team. He's big, athletic as hell, he catches everything thrown his way and is scary with the ball in his hands. Talent wise, he's a first round no-brainer. But his drug issues will drop him quite a bit, though word is he has impressed teams with his honesty and maturity at the combine.



Like Rogers, I was also looking forward to drafting Christine Michael, which I did. But it was easy for a RB to get lost in the Johnny Football show at Texas A&M, and Michael was a casualty of that storm. He's athletically gifted, plays fast, excellent at finding holes and earns every yard. If you ask me, he would be a perfect replacement for Michael Turner in a time-share with Jacquizz Rogers in Atlanta, even though he's not the same type of player. Only thing is, he slept through two interviews at the combine when he never woke up in time. D'oh! Honorable mentions to Markus Wheaton (WR, Oregon State) and the formidable Kiko Alonso (LB, Oregon).