2013 NFL DRAFT

HigginsJ

The following will be participants in Grudens QB camp this year (for 1st time 3 non-QB's have been invited)



The SportsCenter specials will offer a first-hand look at some of this year’s top prospects leading up to the 2013 NFL Draft, which ESPN will again televise April 25-27.
Nine of the top quarterbacks in the draft are scheduled to participate in Gruden’s QB Camp:
• Matt Barkley (USC)
• Tyler Bray (Tennessee)
• Zac Dysert (Miami, OH)
• Mike Glennon (N.C. State)
• Landry Jones (Oklahoma)
• EJ Manuel (Florida State)
• Ryan Nassib (Syracuse)
• Geno Smith (West Virginia)
• Tyler Wilson (Arkansas)
The series will also include a trio of non-quarterbacks:
• Luke Joeckel (Texas A&M), the 2012 Outland Trophy winner and top-five prospect at offensive tackle.
• Marcus Lattimore (South Carolina), the heralded Gamecocks running back who suffered a severe knee injury in October but hopes to play in the NFL in 2013.
• Manti Te’o (Notre Dame), the highly-touted linebacker and Heisman Trophy runner-up who led the Fighting Irish to the BCS Championship game.

HigginsJ

Paully D wrote: »

He'll be a great pick up for someone IMO, I really like him. The Lisfranc injury he had surgery on after the BCS game has hurt his draft stock as he can't work out for teams because of it and has sort of become a forgotten man, but someone will get great value.

I was thinking Bears/Packers 2nd round pick as his sort of range. Any good fits you see for him?

HigginsJ

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000149233/article/jarvis-jones-reportedly-receives-good-medical-report

Jarvis Jones receives positive medical reports from the combine. Could send his draft stock right back to top 5 (where he belongs)

Paully D

HigginsJ wrote: »

I was thinking Bears/Packers 2nd round pick as his sort of range. Any good fits you see for him?

I had him penciled in for the Bears or Packers as well mate, actually had him going there to the Bears in the first round initially when I first started looking at the draft possibilities, but over time his stock started to slide.

I think the Bears will go TE in round 1 with Eifert and snap up Jones or a specialist OT/G in the 2nd round. If he gets past the Bears in round 2 there's very little chance the Packers pass up on him IMO.

When you think about how he wasn't even playing at full speed because of his foot injury you have to think that the mid-bottom of the 2nd round would be great value to pick him up in.

LuckyLloyd

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Had time to get a look at all the 40's and onfield workouts of alot of players on NFL Network over two weeks. What struck me is that there are characteristics way overrated and skills way underrated. Example Tyrann Mathieu in terms of size, strength and speed was nothing exceptional. I went off to work and thought what is all the fuss about Mathieu surely all these guys with better gym stats will draft higher. Then from what I seen in on-field workouts he was clearly out ahead. I remember one very muscular player not even being able to close in his hands in time for the catch, (looked as if his out sized shoulders left him with no adjustment ability with his hands in the air). Compare to Mathieu who was agile and could adjust his hands in the air.
Also I had a think about his 40 time, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that with his lighter frame his speed should last full game and he's likely disadvantaged coming out of a crouche stance which he won't play from on the field. There were so many very heavy, muscular players that are explosive from the crouch but you can see they won't have that same game speed in the 3rd/4th quarter of games.
Then you had coaches pointing stop watches at the 10 mark, again ridiculously innacurate. The actual 40 times then were regraded to much slower official times at the end of the day. The whole exercise seems so flawed from start to finish. There is a huge media push about the 40 times throughout the exercise. Unfair on those lighter players who will not play from a crouched stance and have full game speed. Jerry Rice had an average 40 but could maintain his speed full game, I really think he would be hammered by the analysts on NFL network. It's amazing how big a media blitz this one channel can be for or against a player.
One analyst did properly push the on-field drills noting "This is a ball meant for you, there is no excuse for dropping it.". I'v caught an American football and I really don't think Franchises should be faced with "catching skills" as a project in a player. That suggests they should not have been stepping on the grasss during the combine. How many Mathieus are not making the combine as they are dismissed as slow, too small?
My suggestions for changes would be:
1. Run the 40 from a standing start and do at least one running drill to give measurement of game stamina
2. Carry out the bench press at a lighter weight for some positions, 225 lbs is encouraging smaller framed players to overly-develop upper body strength at the expense of agility.
3. The on-field drills should have more pressure brought by covering players. I'm sorry but no other sport would take any heed to plays made under no defensive pressure bar just getting only a sense of a players agility in the air. It's only a glimpse, different adjustment needed when cover involved.
4. Boil the college career down into some better stats. Just because a player had a lot of sacks, what if his team was totally dominant in their division?. The college playing stats need to make better allowance for good players playing with poor teams and average players playing with dominant teams.
5. There needs to be a deduction for certain positions if the player is a physical beast. So if you have two running backs with roughly equal college careers but one is 6'2" 250lbs and the other is 5'11' and 200 lbs, you could make an educated guess the 250lb is unlikely to be using much evasion in his college career. However in the NFL he won't be able to just run over the top of players. Players whose college career mainly involved physical superiority are very likely to experience a significant drop once hitting the NFL. Exceptions might be likes of Vernon Davis who in College was even physically superior to many in the NFL but again his first season fumbles if known about pre-draft would have affected his signing cash surely. Where was the on-field workouts in the draft to show Davis was a project as regards catching skills (which he has improved).

Nice post. Three things I'd add:

- I agree that some of the drills could be changed - particularly the bench press. Standing overhead press would be a much better metric imo for direct pushing strength but, really, I'd be far more interested in what these guys can front squat and deadlift tbh;
- It should be remembered however that the actual drills will always be arbitrary and part of the test is to see whether you adjust your training and preperation to do well at the specific challenges laid down in the combine;
- There is also a comparative dynamic at play. Clever or no, they've been using the same tests for so long that they have a huge amount of historical data to work off. Might be something they're unwilling to change for that reason alone;

Chucky the tree

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Had time to get a look at all the 40's and onfield workouts of alot of players on NFL Network over two weeks. What struck me is that there are characteristics way overrated and skills way underrated. Example Tyrann Mathieu in terms of size, strength and speed was nothing exceptional. I went off to work and thought what is all the fuss about Mathieu surely all these guys with better gym stats will draft higher. Then from what I seen in on-field workouts he was clearly out ahead. I remember one very muscular player not even being able to close in his hands in time for the catch, (looked as if his out sized shoulders left him with no adjustment ability with his hands in the air). Compare to Mathieu who was agile and could adjust his hands in the air.
Also I had a think about his 40 time, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that with his lighter frame his speed should last full game and he's likely disadvantaged coming out of a crouche stance which he won't play from on the field. There were so many very heavy, muscular players that are explosive from the crouch but you can see they won't have that same game speed in the 3rd/4th quarter of games.
Then you had coaches pointing stop watches at the 10 mark, again ridiculously innacurate. The actual 40 times then were regraded to much slower official times at the end of the day. The whole exercise seems so flawed from start to finish. There is a huge media push about the 40 times throughout the exercise. Unfair on those lighter players who will not play from a crouched stance and have full game speed. Jerry Rice had an average 40 but could maintain his speed full game, I really think he would be hammered by the analysts on NFL network. It's amazing how big a media blitz this one channel can be for or against a player.
One analyst did properly push the on-field drills noting "This is a ball meant for you, there is no excuse for dropping it.". I'v caught an American football and I really don't think Franchises should be faced with "catching skills" as a project in a player. That suggests they should not have been stepping on the grasss during the combine. How many Mathieus are not making the combine as they are dismissed as slow, too small?
My suggestions for changes would be:
1. Run the 40 from a standing start and do at least one running drill to give measurement of game stamina
2. Carry out the bench press at a lighter weight for some positions, 225 lbs is encouraging smaller framed players to overly-develop upper body strength at the expense of agility.
3. The on-field drills should have more pressure brought by covering players. I'm sorry but no other sport would take any heed to plays made under no defensive pressure bar just getting only a sense of a players agility in the air. It's only a glimpse, different adjustment needed when cover involved.
4. Boil the college career down into some better stats. Just because a player had a lot of sacks, what if his team was totally dominant in their division?. The college playing stats need to make better allowance for good players playing with poor teams and average players playing with dominant teams.
5. There needs to be a deduction for certain positions if the player is a physical beast. So if you have two running backs with roughly equal college careers but one is 6'2" 250lbs and the other is 5'11' and 200 lbs, you could make an educated guess the 250lb is unlikely to be using much evasion in his college career. However in the NFL he won't be able to just run over the top of players. Players whose college career mainly involved physical superiority are very likely to experience a significant drop once hitting the NFL. Exceptions might be likes of Vernon Davis who in College was even physically superior to many in the NFL but again his first season fumbles if known about pre-draft would have affected his signing cash surely. Where was the on-field workouts in the draft to show Davis was a project as regards catching skills (which he has improved).

The problem isn't the combine, it's how people use the information from the combine. Some people will know what to look for, what's important and what isn't. For most of your numbered points I'd say all nfl teams already do them(although based on the drafting history of some it's debatable). For example teams won't just look at players stats and draft him and I'm sure they will factor is weight differences as well when comparing two prospects. The combine is a piece to a puzzle, I think it's a very important piece and wouldn't like to see it change much. Tyvo mathieu wasn't hammered because he only did 4 reps and showed poor strength, the issue people had was that it showed he clearly didn't bother his ass trying working/improving on it. Some people will say that's fine, but for others I think it shows an worrying character flaw. For someone who already has a lot of negative press it just looks even worse.

adrian522

Keenan Allen did not work out during his Pro Day due to a knee injury that has been hanging around since the end of the season.

http://www.mercurynews.com/cal-bears/ci_22792104/keenan-allens-cal-pro-day-plans-foiled-by?source=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Do you think there is a chance that he could fall far down the first round round because of this? I would have thought teams would think twice before spending a high pick on him now.

Mikeyt086

Jaguars sent a huge contingent to WVU pro day, apparently Geno Smith threw 64 passes and completed 60, 2 being drops. He then met with new HC Gus Bradley, who said he was impressed with Smith's accuracy.

The Jags either want Geno, or want everyone else to think they want Geno.

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/3/14/4103862/geno-smith-pro-day-jaguars

Dublin Red Devil

This is by far the best mock draft site on the net,

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/mock-drafts

HigginsJ

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

This is by far the best mock draft site on the net,

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/mock-drafts

Draft experts Scott Pioli n Mike Tannebaum!!!

davegrohl48

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The problem isn't the combine, it's how people use the information from the combine. Some people will know what to look for, what's important and what isn't. For most of your numbered points I'd say all nfl teams already do them(although based on the drafting history of some it's debatable). For example teams won't just look at players stats and draft him and I'm sure they will factor is weight differences as well when comparing two prospects. The combine is a piece to a puzzle, I think it's a very important piece and wouldn't like to see it change much. Tyvo mathieu wasn't hammered because he only did 4 reps and showed poor strength, the issue people had was that it showed he clearly didn't bother his ass trying working/improving on it. Some people will say that's fine, but for others I think it shows an worrying character flaw. For someone who already has a lot of negative press it just looks even worse.

But in fairness Tyrone Mathieu doing 4 reps indicates that he is actually quite strong for his frame. Remember he's only around 180lbs and is quite long armed disadvantaging him further. He can bench press 225 lbs four times, which is 1.25 times his bodyweight.
I really think it's true that if he bulked up a bit more in the shoulders, chest to improve his bench he loses that agility and reactivity in the air. I'v very rarely seen bulked up shoulders/chest type players that had excellence in the air. Simple physiology shows theres a slight speed loss in reactive arm movement with the extra lbs he would have to pack on in that area. Given his position "good hands" is probably the no. 1 priority of any of his skills/abilities.

mikemac1

What podcasts are we listening to?

I like the NFL.com with Matt Smith and Bucky Brooks. Informative and the two of them bounce off each other very well, I like both of them.
They bring in young draftees for interviews and lots of them having interesting stories.
Like Sylvester Williams, DT from North Carolina on how he worked in a factory after high school and wanted to try for football in junior college and everyone told him he couldn't do it. And then how he succeeded as a walk on and then got to become a Tarheel


I tried ESPN First Draft with Mel Kiper Jr and Todd McShay and give it the thumbs down!
They were previewing picks 1-5 and all Kiper can offer was to proclaim Dee Millner several times for all five teams.
Fair enough if that's an opinion but that's it, he offered pretty much nothing else

Chucky the tree

davegrohl48 wrote: »

But in fairness Tyrone Mathieu doing 4 reps indicates that he is actually quite strong for his frame. Remember he's only around 180lbs and is quite long armed disadvantaging him further. He can bench press 225 lbs four times, which is 1.25 times his bodyweight.
I really think it's true that if he bulked up a bit more in the shoulders, chest to improve his bench he loses that agility and reactivity in the air. I'v very rarely seen bulked up shoulders/chest type players that had excellence in the air. Simple physiology shows theres a slight speed loss in reactive arm movement with the extra lbs he would have to pack on in that area. Given his position "good hands" is probably the no. 1 priority of any of his skills/abilities.

Even at 186lbs 4 reps is a terrible number. Johnny Adams at 185lbs put up 16 reps. Jonathan banks at 185lbs did 10 reps, Will Davis(186lbs) did 16. It's clear he didn't put in any effort which some would say is fine as well.

taidghbaby

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Even at 186lbs 4 reps is a terrible number. Johnny Adams at 185lbs put up 16 reps. Jonathan banks at 185lbs did 10 reps, Will Davis(186lbs) did 16. It's clear he didn't put in any effort which some would say is fine as well.

Bench press is one of the worse measurements to use but only getting 4 shows a lack of preparation for the combine! And with the year he just had that's very poor IMO!

davyjose

taidghbaby wrote: »

Bench press is one of the worse measurements to use but only getting 4 shows a lack of preparation for the combine! And with the year he just had that's very poor IMO!

Its the best single indicator of upper body strength, but yeah, outside of linemen it makes no sense. And 4 is awful. I can do 4 and im badly out of shape.

Chucky the tree

That's the thing, the teams don't really use bench as a measure of strength. It's more of indicator on how someone prepares and works. For Tyrann it basically tells us that the guy doesn't do things that he doesn't enjoy. The worry then is that does he enjoy watching game tape, learning different systems, difficult playbooks, reading documents about his weekly opponents etc. There is no doubt he enjoys the field drills and play ball, but at the NFL level that's usually not enough. Add in the fact he loves getting stoned at it's a very risky pick before the 4th round I think.

Also the the bench isn't probably the worst strength measure of all the drills compared with the Squat, dead lift, clean etc but it's realistically the one one that can be used at the combine. You just can't ask players to squat/deadlift xlbs y number of times and then send them out the next day to do 40 times and field drills.

TO.

See a lot of NFL teams have asked for proof of age for Ezekial "Ziggy" Ansah. Many teams question his age but his agent has passed on a copy of his passport. He is originally from Ghana and I have to say he does look older than 23

HigginsJ

TO. wrote: »

See a lot of NFL teams have asked for proof of age for Ezekial "Ziggy" Ansah. Many teams question his age but his agent has passed on a copy of his passport. He is originally from Ghana and I have to say he does look older than 23

See these types of stories all the time with African players in soccer. I doubt it will affect his stock.

Justin10

HigginsJ wrote: »

See these types of stories all the time with African players in soccer. I doubt it will affect his stock.

Young Irish lad from Mayo with African parents, Man Utd wanted bone marrow to prove his age.

TO.

HigginsJ wrote: »

See these types of stories all the time with African players in soccer. I doubt it will affect his stock.

Totally agree but he does look older than 23.

Arawn

To be fair you can't blame teams for being suspicious

Alfred Borden

Compensatory draft picks to be awarded at NFL owners meeting later on today.

theRB

TO. wrote: »

See a lot of NFL teams have asked for proof of age for Ezekial "Ziggy" Ansah. Many teams question his age but his agent has passed on a copy of his passport. He is originally from Ghana and I have to say he does look older than 23

Can't see it making too much difference even if he is older than he says.. after all Brandon Weeden went at 22 last year despite being 27 or whatever age he was. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 23 or 24, something similar happened with Obafemi Martins who used to play up front for Newcastle I believe.

Chucky the tree

theRB wrote: »

Can't see it making too much difference even if he is older than he says.. after all Brandon Weeden went at 22 last year despite being 27 or whatever age he was. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 23 or 24, something similar happened with Obafemi Martins who used to play up front for Newcastle I believe.

It would make a difference. If he was 27 or whatever you'd be relying on a team as poorly run as the Browns to make that selection, there aren't many terrible franchises in the NFL so it would easily decrease his chances of being taken in the first. It's one reason why Magnus Hunt will be unlikely to go inside the first two rounds, just to old. Not impossible though obviously.

TO.

theRB wrote: »

Can't see it making too much difference even if he is older than he says.. after all Brandon Weeden went at 22 last year despite being 27 or whatever age he was. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 23 or 24, something similar happened with Obafemi Martins who used to play up front for Newcastle I believe.

Of course it will be an issue. He plays in a high impact position so it will come down to longevity and the older he is the less years he has left in his career. Weeden as a QB is not considered in a high impact position. But as Chucky said certain teams make bad decisions drafting players.

Chucky the tree

Comp. picks announced.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21906837/nfl-announces-compensatory-picks-for-2013-nfl-draft

taidghbaby

Would love the Colts to get Lattimore with the last pick of the draft! This obviously won't happen as he will be drafted much earlier but it would make for a great story I he came back to full fitness and went on to be a huge success after being mr irrelevant!

HigginsJ

taidghbaby wrote: »

Would love the Colts to get Lattimore with the last pick of the draft! This obviously won't happen as he will be drafted much earlier but it would make for a great story I he came back to full fitness and went on to be a huge success after being mr irrelevant!

If Lattimore makes it back to full fitness it will be great no matter where he is drafted. I'd say he won't be around beyond the 3rd round

taidghbaby

HigginsJ wrote: »

If Lattimore makes it back to full fitness it will be great no matter where he is drafted. I'd say he won't be around beyond the 3rd round

49ers I'd say with all their picks!

theRB

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It would make a difference. If he was 27 or whatever you'd be relying on a team as poorly run as the Browns to make that selection, there aren't many terrible franchises in the NFL so it would easily decrease his chances of being taken in the first. It's one reason why Magnus Hunt will be unlikely to go inside the first two rounds, just to old. Not impossible though obviously.

Ah, didn't realise there was talk of him being that old, of course that would be a major issue. I just assumed he would only be a year or two older than he claimed at most.