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Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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Comments

  • #842
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    mango salsa wrote: »
    This is exactly what you said. I'm not sure why you are denying it.
    Deny what? I'm confused here. You're trying to misrepresent what I've said.

    Gender characteristics aren't fully developed until after puberty. It's a pretty major step in development and one which pre-pubescent kids haven't gone through. Therefore it is not incorrect to state that their gender isn't fully developed.

    If it wasn't why are secondary sex characteristics so important to TG males and females, whether breasts (implant or hormone), voice changes or facial hair?

    But please, feel free to re-quote and omit as you wish to fit your agenda.


  • #843
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Sigh

    It has been pointed out NUMEROUS times that no decision was taken at 18 months to raise Coy as a girl.

    Why don't people read the full thread before jumping to conclusions!

    I'm sorry but chances are most people aren't going to have the time to read 50 pages before they reply to a thread. I admit I am one of those people. So all I can go by is the original post and the original source, which states that the child presented as a different gender at 18 months and has been raised as a girl.

    I, personally, think that is wrong.

    As for the toilet situation, have said it already, have no problem with transgendered females using the female toilet. Whether they are indeed transgendered, is up to the individual person to realise, at an age where they are mature enough to understand these issues.


  • #844
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »
    WTF is wrong with those parents!

    You have a son!

    Jesustittyfcukingchrist

    Also this statement is highly ironic! ..."and we do not want one of our daughter's earliest experiences to be our community telling her she's not good enough," she said" - I'm pretty sure "her" parents don't think "she" is good enough, otherwise they would not have a forced transgender child.

    /child abuse!

    Sigh...nothing better than a bit of intellectual laziness...derp! Derp!


  • #845
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    I'm sorry but chances are most people aren't going to have the time to read 50 pages before they reply to a thread. I admit I am one of those people. So all I can go by is the original post and the original source, which states that the child presented as a different gender at 18 months and has been raised as a girl.

    Well that isn't the case.

    www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83445464&postcount=513

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #846
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Well that isn't the case.

    www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83445464&postcount=513

    Well that news link isn't in the original post, I read what's in the original post.

    The parents say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she (we don't know yet) says "I am a girl, I'm not a boy". Do you think at that age someone is mature enough to understand the concept of sexual identity? Honest question. Because I don't.


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  • #847
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    Azure_sky wrote: »
    Sigh...nothing better than a bit of intellectual laziness...derp! Derp!

    Yeah, so's your face!


  • #848
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Well that news link isn't in the original post, I read what's in the original post.

    The parents say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she (we don't know yet) says "I am a girl, I'm not a boy". Do you think at that age someone is mature enough to understand the concept of sexual identity? Honest question. Because I don't.

    Honest answer. I don't think 2 is. I think 6 probably is but I'm not 100% sure. I think it depends on the child though. I don't think any parents would make the decisions they have lightly at all. They bought Coy to a psychologist. They made these decisions after 2-3 years of difficulties trying to deal with Coy as male. I do not think it was just a case of Coy liking sparkly things and then they decided he was female.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #849
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Honest answer. I don't think 2 is. I think 6 probably is but I'm not 100% sure. I think it depends on the child though.

    I think 6 is far too young but I respect your opinion.

    Somebody made an interesting point earlier that if a little girl wanted to dress in boys clothes, play with other boys, likes trucks and action men etc. the thought that they are a transgendered male never crosses anybodys mind. Hell, I was a tomboy as a child. Hated dresses and anything girly and now I am a 21 year old woman who loves getting dressed up and putting on the makeup for my nights out.

    So why is it that when these stories pop up the parents say "oh our little Johnny always liked pink and sparkles, it makes sense that he'd actually a girl". When in reality, he might grow up to be an American football player, a bodybuilder or simply an ordinary heterosexual Joe Bloggs. Or maybe he will grow up and realise he is homosexual, maybe that's why as a child he had tendencies to 'girly' things (and I'm not saying homosexuals in general are girly but there is a subset of gay men who love fashion, Lady Gaga, pink things etc. etc.) I say that because I'm drawing a parallel to myself here who was a tomboy as a child but grew up to be quite a feminine woman, who happens to be attracted to other women. I'm in no way transgender. Yet when I was a kid I'm sure I probably said to my parents at some stage that I wish I was a boy. After all, I played with mostly boys, loved male orientated toys etc. On the other hand, maybe when the child is older she will realise she is a transgendered female. Who knows?
    I don't think any parents would make the decisions they have lightly at all. They bought Coy to a psychologist. They made these decisions after 2-3 years of difficulties trying to deal with Coy as male. I do not think it was just a case of Coy liking sparkly things and then they decided he was female

    Yes, it sounds like indeed they are compassionate concerned parents and if they brought their child to a psychologist, I think that's a wise decision. I'm not saying it's an easy situation to be in. I don't know how I would tackle it if I were the parents. But all I know is that if I had a 3 year old child or a 6 year old child who wanted to be raised as a different gender to which they were born, I would not take it lightly because I know that kids that young go through phases, they change, they do stupid things like eat bugs and grass and mud, they say stupid things like "I'm a helicopter", they have fascinating imaginations, they are complex creatures (like ourselves!) and I think it's all too easy for transgendered people and their allies to say "this is discrimination, the child is clearly transgendered, let her be raised as a female". Equally it's all too easy for transphobic people to come on here and say "he has a penis, clearly he's a boy".

    Wheras I like to fall in between; I really don't think it is possible to determing whether an individual is transgendered until they are mature enough to understand sexual identity and hell, this child hasn't even gone through puberty - this is going to have a huge affect on him/her.

    Maybe the child will be transgender, maybe they won't. But let the child be a child ffs!! And let the child use the female bathrooms. It's not that big a deal!


  • #850
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Well that news link isn't in the original post, I read what's in the original post.

    The parents say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she (we don't know yet) says "I am a girl, I'm not a boy". Do you think at that age someone is mature enough to understand the concept of sexual identity? Honest question. Because I don't.

    When Coy was 3½ the mother gave an interview "I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!). Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!)".
    http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/
    There is no mention of Coy's gender identity issues in that interview, which is pretty frank.

    Coy was not raised transgender, Coy's transgender state became apparent as Coy got older.


  • #851
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    MadsL wrote: »
    When Coy was 3½ the mother gave an interview "I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!). Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!)".
    http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/
    There is no mention of Coy's gender identity issues in that interview, which is pretty frank.

    Coy was not raised transgender, Coy's transgender state became apparent as Coy got older.

    :confused: Just because they don't mention it in one interview...?

    They call Coy "their daughter". They refer to Coy as "she". They say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she said "I am a girl, not a boy". It seems to me the parents don't dispute this. In the learning and development stages of the child, when Coy first speaks those words, they don't correct the child "No, Coy you are a boy", they style and dress the girl to look female. I have no concrete evidence, but it appears from the sources available they did indeed raise Coy as "their daughter"

    Now I'm not saying boys should be dressed in blue, girls in pink. Let the child dress and play with whatever toys they want. But at the end of the day, the child should be educated there is a difference between being a boy and being a girl, and the child should be raised as such, as a boy, until proven otherwise when the child has been through puberty and is intelligently mature enough to understand this complex issue. If at a later stage the child indeed does decide (or rather, realises) that he is a transgendered female, if at a later stage the child/teen decides I want to be known as female, I want corrective surgery etc. then fine! All the more power to her. But this major life decision cannot be decided by a 6 year old child!! Do you disagree?

    This is all just my opinion, of course.


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  • #852
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    :confused: Just because they don't mention it in one interview...?

    They call Coy "their daughter". They refer to Coy as "she". They say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she said "I am a girl, not a boy". It seems to me the parents don't dispute this. In the learning and development stages of the child, when Coy first speaks those words, they don't correct the child "No, Coy you are a boy", they style and dress the girl to look female. I have no concrete evidence, but it appears from the sources available they did indeed raise Coy as "their daughter"

    Now I'm not saying boys should be dressed in blue, girls in pink. Let the child dress and play with whatever toys they want. But at the end of the day, the child should be educated there is a difference between being a boy and being a girl, and the child should be raised as such, as a boy, until proven otherwise when the child has been through puberty and is intelligently mature enough to understand this complex issue. If at a later stage the child indeed does decide (or rather, realises) that he is a transgendered female, if at a later stage the child/teen decides I want to be known as female, I want corrective surgery etc. then fine! All the more power to her. But this major life decision cannot be decided by a 6 year old child!! Do you disagree?

    This is all just my opinion, of course.

    Children often say bizarre and irrational things. Should we presume that a child who says that they are a dog and starts playing around like one is actually defacto a dog?

    No of course not.

    Deciding that a child is actually a girl when they are 18 months old is absolutely absurd.

    Now to hear that Massachusetts are changing their school system to have gender neutral bathrooms for transgendered pupils is just bizarre.

    This stuff just doesn't make any good sense. The more and more people start trying to rationalise it the more and more absurd it becomes. It seems like people are insisting on creating culture wars just for the sake of it rather on the basis of sound reasoning for change.


  • #853
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    :confused: Just because they don't mention it in one interview...?

    They call Coy "their daughter". They refer to Coy as "she". They say that once Coy was old enough to speak he/she said "I am a girl, not a boy". It seems to me the parents don't dispute this. In the learning and development stages of the child, when Coy first speaks those words, they don't correct the child "No, Coy you are a boy", they style and dress the girl to look female. I have no concrete evidence, but it appears from the sources available they did indeed raise Coy as "their daughter"

    Right, sure, whatever you say. In the meantime here is a picture of the family when Coy was 3½ years old.
    http://visionarymom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/family.jpg

    I've no idea which of the two triplets sitting up is Coy. Have you?


  • #854
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    MadsL wrote: »
    Right, sure, whatever you say. In the meantime here is a picture of the family when Coy was 3½ years old.
    http://visionarymom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/family.jpg

    I've no idea which of the two triplets sitting up is Coy. Have you?

    What's your point? It's one photo. Dress is just one aspect of it anyway.

    In this video http://kdvr.com/2013/02/26/6-year-old-transgendered-girl-fights-intolerance-parents-file-civil-rights-complaint/ Coy is styled and dressed a female, they refer to Coy as "she" as "their daughter". Would you describe those actions as raising a child as a boy or a girl?!

    Feel free to completely ignore the rest of my post by the way.


  • #855
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    philologos wrote: »
    Children often say bizarre and irrational things. Should we presume that a child who says that they are a dog and starts playing around like one is actually defacto a dog?

    No of course not.

    I wish people would stop reminding me of a kid I used to teach who was so badly abused (sexual assaulted, beaten, burned with cigs) that he spent a term only responding as a dog as it was the only thing in the family home that got loved. As you can imagine it was very difficult to communicate and try and help that child.
    Deciding that a child is actually a girl when they are 18 months old is absolutely absurd.

    Yes, and for the last time (I hope) let's say again the family didn't do that. Could we get a mod warning in the OP to stop with this 18 month meme, it simply didn't happen.
    Now to hear that Massachusetts are changing their school system to have gender neutral bathrooms for transgendered pupils is just bizarre.
    Because accommodating people is wrong? Perhaps they should not "waste" money on disabled toilets?

    These accommodations are quite simple, and are social transitions.
    In one elementary school, a transgender second-grader socially transitioned from female to male. The principal informed the staff: For the remainder of this year, he will use Nurse Margaret’s restroom, and toward the end of the year we will make future determinations of restroom use in consultation with his family.

    In one middle school, a male-to-female transgender sixth-grader socially transitioned after spring break. For the rest of the school year, she used the nurse’s restroom and the other unisex restrooms at the school. Beginning in seventh grade, she used the girls’ restroom.
    In one high school, a transgender male-to-female student was given access to the female changing facility, but the student was uncomfortable using the female changing facility with other female students because there were no private changing areas within the facility. The principal examined the changing facility and determined that curtains could easily be put up
    along one side of a row of benches near the group lockers, providing private changing areas for any students who wished to use them. After the school put up the curtains, the student was comfortable using the changing facility.
    http://tavernkeepers.com/massachusetts-schools-considering-gender-neutral-policy-on-bathrooms-locker-rooms/
    This stuff just doesn't make any good sense. The more and more people start trying to rationalise it the more and more absurd it becomes. It seems like people are insisting on creating culture wars just for the sake of it rather on the basis of sound reasoning for change.
    Not trying to accommodate the estimated 700,000 trans people in the US? Is that not a sound reason for change?


  • #856
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MadsL wrote: »
    I wish people would stop reminding me of a kid I used to teach who was so badly abused (sexual assaulted, beaten, burned with cigs) that he spent a term only responding as a dog as it was the only thing in the family home that got loved. As you can imagine it was very difficult to communicate and try and help that child.



    Yes, and for the last time (I hope) let's say again the family didn't do that. Could we get a mod warning in the OP to stop with this 18 month meme, it simply didn't happen.


    Because accommodating people is wrong? Perhaps they should not "waste" money on disabled toilets?

    These accommodations are quite simple, and are social transitions.




    http://tavernkeepers.com/massachusetts-schools-considering-gender-neutral-policy-on-bathrooms-locker-rooms/


    Not trying to accommodate the estimated 700,000 trans people in the US? Is that not a sound reason for change?

    4 years old is ridiculously young. Messing around with a child's idea of gender at that age is ridiculous. Look at this article. Although it is in the Daily Fail it has pictures of Coy:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2285016/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-girls-parents-legal-action-school-tells-use-boys-restroom.html

    I don't see what is so wrong with accepting ourselves as we really are. If people have genuine gender dysphoria, then yes getting this resolved is important, but if people don't then I don't understand to be honest.

    Gender isn't a philosophical thing, or a mere choice, it is assigned at birth.


  • #857
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    philologos wrote: »
    Gender isn't a philosophical thing, or a mere choice, it is assigned at birth.

    That statement tells me you don't really 'get' gender dysphoria.


  • #858
    Blackbush1905
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44 ✭Blackbush1905


    Typical yanks, bunch of ****ing weirdos!


  • #859
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    MadsL wrote: »

    That statement tells me you don't really 'get' gender dysphoria.


    Ah Mad, would it honestly kill you to explain WHY you think phil doesn't in your opinion 'get' gender dysphoria, instead of making vague and obtuse statements that add nothing to a discussion, and just come off as you trying to be all knowing and lofty and the rest of us plebs have no clue, etc?



    ps. I understood clearly what phil was saying. I imagine you did too, but I got tired of your twisting and squirming, wriggling and dismissing the efforts others were putting into their posts ages ago.


  • #860
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Ah Mad, would it honestly kill you to explain WHY you think phil doesn't in your opinion 'get' gender dysphoria, instead of making vague and obtuse statements that add nothing to a discussion, and just come off as you trying to be all knowing and lofty and the rest of us plebs have no clue, etc?



    ps. I understood clearly what phil was saying. I imagine you did too, but I got tired of your twisting and squirming, wriggling and dismissing the efforts others were putting into their posts ages ago.

    It's a disorder.

    Saying it's not a choice or a philosophy is like saying bi polar is not a choice or a philosophy.


  • #861
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    It's a disorder.

    Saying it's not a choice or a philosophy is like saying bi polar is not a choice or a philosophy.


    Yes Claire, phil gets that, I get that, you get that, but Mad is trying to imply that phil doesn't know what he's talking about based on the phrasing of one single sentence in a whole post.

    Knowing Mad's insistence for all things technically correct, Mad is probably thinking gender is assigned from the moment of conception or at some stage in zygote development, etc, but I think we all know what phil meant, and there's no need for the pedantic semantics that aren't actually as relevant when the sentence itself is taken within the context of the whole post, not just one sentence out on it's own.


    That kind of obtuse picking and choosing phrases out of context is just petty and does nothing to further discussion of the whole point made in the post.


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  • #862
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    It's a disorder.

    Saying it's not a choice or a philosophy is like saying bi polar is not a choice or a philosophy.

    You could do with reading my post again. You've clearly misunderstood.
    I don't see what is so wrong with accepting ourselves as we really are. If people have genuine gender dysphoria, then yes getting this resolved is important, but if people don't then I don't understand to be honest.

    Gender isn't a philosophical thing, or a mere choice, it is assigned at birth.

    I.E - If people have clear biological issues as a result of gender then yes getting them resolved is very important. If people are choosing to identify as gender X or Y I don't think that falls into that bracket.


  • #863
    CollardGreens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 453 ✭✭CollardGreens


    Why don't y'all use the rest of the alphabet when talking about this, seems silly to leave the other letters out when you have so many to use???


  • #864
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    philologos wrote: »
    Gender isn't a philosophical thing, or a mere choice, it is assigned at birth.
    clairefontaine wrote: »
    It's a disorder.

    Saying it's not a choice or a philosophy is like saying bi polar is not a choice or a philosophy.

    I'm confused. Gender dysphoria ISN'T a choice. Bipolar disorder ISN'T a choice. Nobody choses to be transgender or bipolar :confused:


  • #865
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    I'm confused. Gender dysphoria ISN'T a choice. Bipolar disorder ISN'T a choice. Nobody choses to be transgender or bipolar :confused:

    Right.

    If I understand what philogos is saying, and I might not, there are transgenders who have a disorder, and there are those who are making a choice to be the other gender? Is that right?

    And if it is a disorder it has to be dealt with one way or another and if it's a choice than that is another story altogether.

    In the case of Coy Mathis, it would appear to be a genuine disorder, the wiring is off and he genuinely believes he is a girl. His state ID and his passport say girl too. The state would not do this flippantly, you have to go through an entire psych process to get this done.

    It's a tough call- the tension between individual and consensual reality.

    S/he is a child so s/he needs to be validated from her parents and her peers. If a child does not get that, the consequences are devastating. Honestly, I feel for all parties in this situation.


  • #866
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    Right.

    If I understand what philogos is saying, and I might not, there are transgenders who have a disorder, and there are those who are making a choice to be the other gender? Is that right?

    And if it is a disorder it has to be dealt with one way or another and if it's a choice than that is another story altogether.

    In the case of Coy Mathis, it would appear to be a genuine disorder, the wiring is off and he genuinely believes he is a girl. His state ID and his passport say girl too. The state would not do this flippantly, you have to go through an entire psych process to get this done.

    It's a tough call- the tension between individual and consensual reality.

    S/he is a child so s/he needs to be validated from her parents and her peers. If a child does not get that, the consequences are devastating. Honestly, I feel for all parties in this situation.


    You're spot on with your interpretation of phil's post claire, it's confusing for some because the idea in it is a perspective not many are willing to look at.

    It's the same as what I was saying earlier that these "princess boys" are doing the genuinely transgendered community no favors.

    As for the psychology and psychiatric testing, well it's not difficult to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who will sign papers to confirm a parent's "diagnosis", as opposed to taking the child to an independent expert who will examine not just the child but also all aspects influencing the child's development.

    What seems to be happening here in this case is the mother is stunting the child's development at the discovering the differences in genders stage and it's suited her for her own twisted reasons to indulge the child's curiosity about what it is to be female, the mother validating the child's behaviour then encourages the child to keep up the behaviour longer than they would have done under normal development, and many in this thread have suggested that the child's development could be further artificially stunted by the use of hormone therapy to give everyone else but the child "time, to decide what to do".

    This is where I've been coming from all along when I've said that if these people truly believed the child is ACTUALLY transgendered, they shouldn't have a problem discussing medical procedures for the child's benefit as early as possible, not stunting the child's development because they look cute in a pink frilly dress and their mothers want to be validated by their peers as "supermoms".


  • #867
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Right.

    If I understand what philogos is saying, and I might not, there are transgenders who have a disorder, and there are those who are making a choice to be the other gender? Is that right?

    And if it is a disorder it has to be dealt with one way or another and if it's a choice than that is another story altogether.

    In the case of Coy Mathis, it would appear to be a genuine disorder, the wiring is off and he genuinely believes he is a girl. His state ID and his passport say girl too. The state would not do this flippantly, you have to go through an entire psych process to get this done.

    It's a tough call- the tension between individual and consensual reality.

    S/he is a child so s/he needs to be validated from her parents and her peers. If a child does not get that, the consequences are devastating. Honestly, I feel for all parties in this situation.

    I don't think we can be certain about a 4 year old who has said that they want to be a girl. Kids say all kinds of bizarre things at that age for example wanting to be a dog or insisting that they are a cat. It's far far too young.

    I do wonder if instead of leaping to the conclusion that one must identify as another gender that we should be at first seeing if there is any possible means to encourage the child to be comfortable in their own skin. I do think that there are genuine cases of gender dysphoria, but then there are others which aren't at all.

    By the by, I can understand the other parents who are concerned. This is really open to abuse, particularly what they are doing in Massachusetts in high schools.


  • #868
    ashers222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭ashers222


    philologos wrote: »

    I do wonder if instead of leaping to the conclusion that one must identify as another gender that we should be at first seeing if there is any possible means to encourage the child to be comfortable in their own skin. I do think that there are genuine cases of gender dysphoria, but then there are others which aren't at all.

    .

    This, I agree with this. I just think that there are differences in opinion as to what is acceptable in order for some people to feel comfortable in their own skin. Coy identifies as a girl and really, this should be acceptable.


  • #869
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You're spot on with your interpretation of phil's post claire, it's confusing for some because the idea in it is a perspective not many are willing to look at.

    It's the same as what I was saying earlier that these "princess boys" are doing the genuinely transgendered community no favors.

    As for the psychology and psychiatric testing, well it's not difficult to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who will sign papers to confirm a parent's "diagnosis", as opposed to taking the child to an independent expert who will examine not just the child but also all aspects influencing the child's development.

    What seems to be happening here in this case is the mother is stunting the child's development at the discovering the differences in genders stage and it's suited her for her own twisted reasons to indulge the child's curiosity about what it is to be female, the mother validating the child's behaviour then encourages the child to keep up the behaviour longer than they would have done under normal development, and many in this thread have suggested that the child's development could be further artificially stunted by the use of hormone therapy to give everyone else but the child "time, to decide what to do".

    This is where I've been coming from all along when I've said that if these people truly believed the child is ACTUALLY transgendered, they shouldn't have a problem discussing medical procedures for the child's benefit as early as possible, not stunting the child's development because they look cute in a pink frilly dress and their mothers want to be validated by their peers as "supermoms".

    I don't really see this.

    Surgery is high risk and even higher risk the younger you are. I don't think that resisting medical procedures which are not directly health related is a sign that she is not truly believing in her child's disorder. Perhaps medically, they don't know how surgery will impact their development. Do you honestly think there is a surgeon in this world who would agree to genital modification of a small child if there is not a direct health threat?

    When you say "actually transgendered" I assume you mean having the disorder, an official diagnosis, etc. Well, the DSM is not written in stone, and diagnosis can change too. I think you assume here that to be "actually transgendered" means it wont ever change, which is impossible to predict imo. Illness changes, mental health changes, people change, there are no destinies, but that does not mean that right now and for the past few years, enough time to suggest that this is far more than whimsy or a child claiming they are a cat or playing dress up for a few hours.

    ANd if you eventually change your mind does it mean you never had the disorder in the first place. I'm not so sure.

    The claims that the parents are child abusers etc.... [not to mention that the accusations on this thread are thrown at the mother mostly... and not the father for some odd reason] is unfair and unsubstantiated. I'm not dismissing the possibility that this might be the case, but no one knows this family and to not give the benefit of the doubt is not very fair. By four years old, kids know what camp they fall into gender wise.


  • #870
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    What seems to be happening here in this case is the mother is stunting the child's development at the discovering the differences in genders stage and it's suited her for her own twisted reasons to indulge the child's curiosity about what it is to be female, the mother validating the child's behaviour then encourages the child to keep up the behaviour longer than they would have done under normal development, and many in this thread have suggested that the child's development could be further artificially stunted by the use of hormone therapy to give everyone else but the child "time, to decide what to do".

    Lie. One person has said that.
    This is where I've been coming from all along when I've said that if these people truly believed the child is ACTUALLY transgendered, they shouldn't have a problem discussing medical procedures for the child's benefit as early as possible, not stunting the child's development because they look cute in a pink frilly dress and their mothers want to be validated by their peers as "supermoms".

    No, that is the position you have trying to foist on people so that you can then crucify them for it. NOBODY has supported that position yet you persist with this zombie strawman you created.


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  • #871
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Ah Mad, would it honestly kill you to explain WHY you think phil doesn't in your opinion 'get' gender dysphoria, instead of making vague and obtuse statements that add nothing to a discussion, and just come off as you trying to be all knowing and lofty and the rest of us plebs have no clue, etc?
    Because his post had the flavour of "lifestyle choice" bolloxology about it and I called him on it, was it that hard to see that?

    And my user name is MadsL. Not Mad.


This discussion has been closed.
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