Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

bodice ripper wrote: »

How about "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", or being female is not about toilets and clothes and pink and long hair in bows, or YOUR BEING FEMININE DOES NOT HANG ON OTHERS PERCEPTION OF YOUR FEMININITY ? every female child needs that one.

What about it? I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Perhaps you should turn of your Caps Lock though.

MadsL wrote: »

What about it? I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Perhaps you should turn of your Caps Lock though.

can spare the brain power for a fabulously unfunny remark, but not the point, no?

read the post again, I have faith in you.

The kid should not be made to feel as if her identity hangs on "presenting" or being "accommodated" as a female. Better get that idea in to the head early, or what will you do when your teenage daughter is confronted with the societal pressure on all women to appear feminine? That screws up plenty of cisgendered adult women, let alone 8 year old children.

B0jangles wrote: »

Are seriously quoting a Star Trek film to support constricting the rights of trans gendered people?

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are you seriously claiming I'm trying to constrict the rights of transgendered people by saying that using a separate toilet is probably less damaging to a small child whose life is already complex enough than being withdrawn from school and thrust into the public eye?

MadsL wrote: »

I think you are projecting about what this kid feels about it frankly. No one is drawing that the kid's identity hangs on this, just that they should not be excluded. That seems reasonable to me.

Well, if you won't address the point, and I had a fair idea you would not, I'll not reword it.


Kids get excluded, and in far bigger ways than "this toilet here" by other kids. Especially girls. Mom making a media circus about it is not going to help, now or later.

MadsL wrote: »

They did one interview. Get a grip.

They should not have. Here we are talking about it online on the other side of the world in a 800+ post thread. It's a major news story around the planet.

so yeah, thrust into the public eye. get a grip indeed.

B0jangles wrote: »

I pointed out that it is a great deal easier to ignore gender stereotypes when your own apparent gender is beyond question.

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That does not mean the the healthy or smart thing to do is take them as gospel.


your apparent gender is never beyond question when you are a teen. it's going to get questioned, probably best to not make an actual federal case out of it with such a young child.

On reflection, this whole debate is ridiculous.


The problem lies in the perception of why the bathrooms are divided by the categories of male and female. Bathrooms are separated in that way not because of the psychological differences between the sexes, but because of their physical differences.


Therefore, the argument for who uses what bathroom really is as black and white as it's ever been.


Those with male genitals should use the male bathroom and visa versa.


A transgender woman with a penis should use the male bathroom, any issue they may have with that is not because it's unfair, it's because they've erroneously decided that the words 'male' and 'man' don't necessarily indicate the presence of a penis, which of course they do (lets exclude the maimed from this debate for the obvious reason that it would unnecessarily overcomplicate matters). To state otherwise would be a misinterpretation of the word's meaning.


If the law has changed to broaden the meanings of the terms 'male' and 'female' to include definitions that contradict the presence of a penis or vagina, then there has been a miscarriage of justice because we need to be able to define men and women by their physical make-up alone. It is simply a fact that humans can be divided into those two categories based on their physical appearance. It would be outrageously impractical not to have the use of words with such clear-cut meanings.


If people are uncomfortable with this solution, be it ordinary men and women or transgender men and women, they as individuals, either need to:

1) Learn to tolerate those that present themselves differently, or

2) They need to grow up and accept that they've all got the same junk, irrespective of how much they may resent that.


If there exists a threat of abuse or violence for a transgendered person to use a particular bathroom, it is not because they don't have the right bathroom, it is down to the intolerance of those individuals involved. We as a society have laws to prevent people from behaving abusively or violently, if the laws or law enforcement is insufficient then those are the problems. To change the way society operates based on the threat of violence is to be governed by violence.


Humans come in all shapes and sizes, of different races and belief systems, but we can put all humans into two separate and distinct categories, and we can do that based on their genitalia. To argue against that is to argue against scientific fact.


So the problem is clearly either an issue of semantics, or, it is that some don't share in the belief that bathrooms should be segregated. Unfortunately for some, the majority dictates bathroom etiquette, and they have come to their conclusion based on genitalia.


If people still wish to define the terms of male and female so as to include those without the respective genitalia, then perhaps our efforts should instead be focused on getting the signs on bathroom doors amended to say 'penises' and 'vaginas'.

B0jangles wrote: »

Are you confusing sexuality with gender? Because if you are not,your post makes no sense whatsoever.

I am not. your gender, and whether or not you are behaving correctly for that gender.

bodice ripper wrote: »

You are making **** up now. I never said a damn thing about the number of kids one way or the other. I mocked a woman who would allow young and vunerable kids to be the subject of media glare. I stand by that, and I clarified it twice now.

You know what would be great for young autistic kids? Loads of public attention.
you know what would be great for a young girl's self image? Being a cause celebre in a debate about what constitutes female.

The mom definitely did the right thing in withdrawing Coy and suing. The nurse's toilet would have ****ed that kid up for sure.

There you go again with the hyperbole.

However, you did post this when I asked you not to caricature the family;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83460194&postcount=786

I said
"Please don't caricature these parents as something they are plainly not."

You said
"even if I wanted to, it would be tough:"
"Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!)."

I guess you were saying, nope, can't think of what you meant except taking the piss.

You do know what neuro-typical means don't you?

B0jangles wrote: »

Are you confusing sexuality with gender? Because if you are not,your post makes no sense whatsoever.

No, the most major development with relation to your gender (aside from conception) occurs during puberty. Changes to body shape, hair growth, sexual maturation etc.

Which is why it is ridiculous to classify kids as young as four as 'transgender' when they clearly haven't developed any gender fully.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

No, the most major development with relation to your gender (aside from conception) occurs during puberty. Changes to body shape, hair growth, sexual maturation etc.

Which is why it is ridiculous to classify kids as young as four as 'transgender' when they clearly haven't developed any gender fully.

So ok - if children don't develop any gender until puberty (according to you) - why do we classify them at all into male and female?

0066ad wrote: »

Simple, one has male genitalia the other has female genitalia.

What about intersex children?

mango salsa wrote: »

Yes.

You did.

No

I did not. You misleadingly left out the last word "fully".

I said the major gender development occurs during puberty.

I said sexual maturation doesn't occur until puberty. Until then the primary differences between boys and girls is physical (penis or vagina), which is essentially how the toilets are segregated.