Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

AlexisM · 01-03-2013 12:52PM

Godge wrote: »

The average salary of the public sector employee has fallen further from its peak than the average salary of the private sector employee has fallen from its peak. That is an undisputable fact demonstrated many times on these boards. That is set to continue with more pay cuts for public servants and average private sector salaries going up.

I'm not a big fan of averages but as you've gone there...

Dan O’Brien has a good piece in the Irish Times today (basically about how the self-interest is keeping young people unemployed and out of the PS). http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0301/1224330653975.html

“The average gross pay packet in the public sector* was €63,305 last year, down by €1,300 from the peak registered in 2009. But it remains well up on the €58,170 paid in 2007 just as the bubble burst. In 2002, when the bubble began to inflate, the average public sector pay packet stood at €42,035. Even allowing for inflation (22 per cent) in the decade to 2012, average real pay is still one-third above 2002.”

No employer owes any employee a living. Salaries went up because the State thought it was rich and could afford to dispense largesse to its workers; turns out it wasn’t rich after all so at least some of the largesse has to be clawed back (although nowhere near all/enough according to the IT piece). It’s not pleasant having to reverse one’s standard of living but the PS employer just doesn’t have the money to keep paying what it thought it could and what it gave in false circumstances.

antoobrien · 01-03-2013 12:58PM

creedp wrote: »

As per always it comes down to a direct comparison between public and private sectors which of course are not directly comparable but that doesn’t seem to matter.

We're not trying to compare jobs, we're comparing industrial relations measures - which are common across sectors, so go cry me a river.

Now think about this for a second: try selling the "pain" of losing an overtime premium to somebody that doesn't get one or already gets paid overtime at a lower rate. You'll be told where to go in very short order.

Before you cry irrelevance it's the same thing as the higher earners PS earners complaining their 5.5/8 etc % cuts are unfair, the lower paid will tell them where to go.

As for the rest of it, one word applies: paranoid.

antoobrien · 01-03-2013 01:05PM

kceire wrote: »

He should go to Auz or canada.
one of my 2 mates went to Auz and is absolutely liviing the life.

Earns fantastic money and the quality of life is light years ahead, he is eating better, out in the air more often and lost alot of weight and just looks so much healthier!

If i was in your brothers position, i would deffo consider going.

He spent a year out there a few years ago, so he knows what it's like (the good & bad). And my youngest brother is currently out there on a working visa - you might well be talking about him with that description. The second on I'd advise to stay for the reasons you outlined as he has nothing bar a leaving cert.

On the other hand, I know a few lads that have come home from Australia various reasons, so that garden isn't all that rosy.

For whatever reason the plumber doesn't want to go back or think it's a reasonable option for him. While he currently can't get work as a plumber, he has found work and generally cut his cloth to suit the situation he now finds himself in.

ardmacha · 01-03-2013 01:25PM

“The average gross pay packet in the public sector* was €63,305 last year, down by €1,300 from the peak registered in 2009. But it remains well up on the €58,170 paid in 2007 just as the bubble burst. In 2002, when the bubble began to inflate, the average public sector pay packet stood at €42,035. Even allowing for inflation (22 per cent) in the decade to 2012, average real pay is still one-third above 2002.”

This article and the people who post it are deliberately spreading misinformation, as these figures do not include the pension levy. Anyone who deliberately ignores something whose existence is widely known and in the public domain has no credibility whatsoever.

creedp · 01-03-2013 01:55PM

antoobrien wrote: »

I've never seen it proved just stated.

Besides I though averages were not appropriate when discussing PS workers.:rolleyes: and let's not ignore the fact that statistics can be doctored any way you like, such as ignoring lost income of those that lost jobs to suit an argument.

That's hilarious .. in fairness to you you I admire your persistence! At least now we know that discussions on averages are off the table. Where do we go from here?

creedp · 01-03-2013 02:14PM

antoobrien wrote: »

We're not trying to compare jobs, we're comparing industrial relations measures - which are common across sectors, so go cry me a river.

Haven't heard that one in while .. how quaint

Now think about this for a second: try selling the "pain" of losing an overtime premium to somebody that doesn't get one or already gets paid overtime at a lower rate. You'll be told where to go in very short order.

I'm not selling anything to anyone .. it seems to me that people who are not impacted by a deal are trying to sell the deal as a good deal to those who are being adversely affected by it and go further and declare themselves to be part of the Govt aparatus by claiming that that it could have been worse and in any case we'll be back for more.

Before you cry irrelevance it's the same thing as the higher earners PS earners complaining their 5.5/8 etc % cuts are unfair, the lower paid will tell them where to go.

What has the inappropriateness of comparing the private sector to the public sector got to do with the above? You obviously define a low paid public servant as someone earning €64,999 while someone on high pay earns €65k. Having said that you consider someone on a gild edged €32,500 PS pension to be close to the poverty line who can't really be cut. So you [someone who is seems to be a self-appointed Govt/taxpayer spokesperson on CP2] are in support of a deal which allows low paid €64,999 public servants be completely unaffected by pay cuts even though you are prostrating yourself with anticipation of slashing PS pay in order to close the deficit. You do realise that if lower paid PS were given a pay cut of even 1% this would generate substantially increasd savings to help with your beloved deficit.

As for the rest of it, one word applies: paranoid.

Well you started with one so why not finish with another

road_high · 01-03-2013 02:15PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Where did I say anything about me? And no the country doesnt owe them a living but they signed a contract based on certain conditions and borrowed money based on projected earnings, so they have a right to feel aggrieved when they are being consistently targeted to make amends for the mess others got us into.

I dont think there are many in the public sector that will have over extended themselves to the same extent as those in the private sector. You seem to be forgetting it was the private sector that got the country into the mess its in.

Was reffering to the PS in a general sense, obviously.

Contracts don't mean jacksh!t in the real world when your employer is broke. If my employer went bust I'd be gone and that would be it. I'd have some use going crying to the recievers or whoever with my "contract" and explaining how I borrowed money based on that contract, and I so I shouldn't have my job cut.... I'd be laughed out of it.

Plus any PS worker that has made heavy overstrenous financial commitments based on CP1 is an idiot quite frankly. It was perfectly obvious that the agreement had many clauses reffered to in previous posts such as growth forecasts that sadly have not materilised etc.

Here we go the banks again....it's a handy smoke screen as always, but won't change the fact we are spending €1 billion a month abover what we take in. As 35% of spend is on PS salaries, a €1 billion saving appears very fair to me.

creedp · 01-03-2013 02:24PM

antoobrien wrote: »

Are they - I've seen no evidence of this in my wages, or any member of my family (6 different employers so by the law of averages one of us should see something).

So announcements of pay increases in the retail sector (yea the one that has experienced continuous contraction over the last 4 years) can be ignored because your family hasn't received a pay increase. You are correct the use of averages can be manipulated any way that suits.

The average wage is being driven up by the new high paying jobs, e.g. all those software jobs, coming online, not by increases in pay for people already in jobs.

What basis have you for making that assertion - presumably you are confining that claim to the IT industry - are retail wages being inflated by demand for IT specialists?

antoobrien · 01-03-2013 02:40PM

creedp wrote: »

That's hilarious .. in fairness to you you I admire your persistence! At least now we know that discussions on averages are off the table. Where do we go from here?

Averages aren't off the table, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of using them when it suits you e.g. to justify how the PS have been hit compared to the average ps worker. It's either entirely on or off. Godge bringing it it up makes the averages fair game again.

Here are some facts for you gross incomes:
Year | National Gross income | PS Gross income | other Gross income
08 | +1.7 | +1.2 | +0.5
09 | -8.8 | +0.7 | -9.5
10 | -4.3 | -1.3 | -3.0

Souces -revenue.ie (2010 last available year), per.gov.ie

donalg1 · 01-03-2013 02:47PM

road_high wrote: »

Was reffering to the PS in a general sense, obviously.

Contracts don't mean jacksh!t in the real world when your employer is broke. If my employer went bust I'd be gone and that would be it. I'd have some use going crying to the recievers or whoever with my "contract" and explaining how I borrowed money based on that contract, and I so I shouldn't have my job cut.... I'd be laughed out of it.

Plus any PS worker that has made heavy overstrenous financial commitments based on CP1 is an idiot quite frankly. It was perfectly obvious that the agreement had many clauses reffered to in previous posts such as growth forecasts that sadly have not materilised etc.

Here we go the banks again....it's a handy smoke screen as always, but won't change the fact we are spending €1 billion a month abover what we take in. As 35% of spend is on PS salaries, a €1 billion saving appears very fair to me.

I am not talking about financial commitments based on CP1 I am talking about someone who say came to the PS ten years ago and signed a contract stating they would eventually after 15 years or whatever earn 39k, and would have thought at the time that they could be ok with 39k a year and if not there might even be a promotion opportunity too.

Now they are being told the best you will get is 35k for now, probably less in another few years and zero chance of promotions ever in your career. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with cutting wages as the country is broke, but there is no point in telling people to put up and shut up when they are constantly being attacked by government, of course they are going to feel aggrieved and get a little annoyed with the situation.

For example say you worked in a cafe and you signed a 30year contract saying in 15 years time you would be on 39k things were good in the business at the time so the owner decides to expand. Now a contractor comes in and ruins the plumbing and leaves the owner to bail the business out by means of a loan to repair the damage caused by the outside party.

So now the owner comes to you and says I will have to cut your wages to finance the loan taken out for the damage that other fella did that had nothing to do with you. Then a year later the owner says again you are getting another pay cut because I need to pay off this loan, but we will enter an agreement for 4 years which will mean you dont get any more cuts.

3 years later the owner comes back and says you know that agreement well I am tearing it up and giving you another cut in pay, oh and by the way you will have to also work extra hours for it, and any overtime you get I am changing the rates of that too.

Are you telling me that employee should turn around and say "ok thats grand, thanks very much", and not feel slightly peed off about it. Especially when said employee sees the contractor driving around in his fancy car living the life of Reilly without a care in the world and having never been held to account for his past mistakes.

antoobrien · 01-03-2013 02:48PM

creedp wrote: »

So announcements of pay increases in the retail sector (yea the one that has experienced continuous contraction over the last 4 years) can be ignored because your family hasn't received a pay increase. You are correct the use of averages can be manipulated any way that suits.

Most retail jobs would lower the average (mean) wage as they would not be paid the mean wage. Then again laying off a factory/retail worker could raise the average (mean) wage as it would take a lot of lower wages.

creedp wrote: »

What basis have you for making that assertion - presumably you are confining that claim to the IT industry - are retail wages being inflated by demand for IT specialists?

No, in general the jobs that I have noticed (probably personal bias in not noticing a shop opening) are the higher end ones i.e. scientists, engineers (traditional), software engineers & developers etc. This is good but will not help the unemployment situation in the short term as we already have skills shortages in these areas and the training times are not short.

Godge · 01-03-2013 03:45PM

AlexisM wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of averages but as you've gone there...

Dan O’Brien has a good piece in the Irish Times today (basically about how the self-interest is keeping young people unemployed and out of the PS). http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0301/1224330653975.html

“The average gross pay packet in the public sector* was €63,305 last year, down by €1,300 from the peak registered in 2009. But it remains well up on the €58,170 paid in 2007 just as the bubble burst. In 2002, when the bubble began to inflate, the average public sector pay packet stood at €42,035. Even allowing for inflation (22 per cent) in the decade to 2012, average real pay is still one-third above 2002.”

No employer owes any employee a living. Salaries went up because the State thought it was rich and could afford to dispense largesse to its workers; turns out it wasn’t rich after all so at least some of the largesse has to be clawed back (although nowhere near all/enough according to the IT piece). It’s not pleasant having to reverse one’s standard of living but the PS employer just doesn’t have the money to keep paying what it thought it could and what it gave in false circumstances.

Dan O'Brien's figures do not make sense when you consider that only one in seven public servants will face a pay cut under Croke Park 2, yet the threshold is set at €65,000.

Riskymove · 01-03-2013 03:55PM

Godge wrote: »

Dan O'Brien's figures do not make sense when you consider that only one in seven public servants will face a pay cut under Croke Park 2, yet the threshold is set at €65,000.

its interesting that he uses his own figures - he puts an asterix beside the figure to explain how he came to them.

As you have said the figures do not add up (pardon the pun).

The CSO publish average wage figures on a regular basis and I think the current figure is around €47k

antoobrien · 01-03-2013 04:19PM

Riskymove wrote: »

its interesting that he uses his own figures - he puts an asterix beside the figure to explain how he came to them.

As you have said the figures do not add up (pardon the pun).

The CSO publish average wage figures on a regular basis and I think the current figure is around €47k

* Figures come from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and are derived by dividing the total year -end headcount by the annual gross pay bill

Gross pay bill: 18,412,967,000
Numbers
Q1 292,353.57, average = 62,981.84
Q2 292,373.09, average = 62,977.64
Q3: 290,705.20, average = 63,338.97
Q4: 290,861.88, average = 63,304.85

Do they really don't add up do they.:rolleyes:

noodler · 01-03-2013 04:43PM

Hmm, I wonder how the CSO calculate it then.

The CSO figures are based on a survey response but I am sure it must be to do with weighted averages - I'll look at it later if no one else does.

Godge · 01-03-2013 04:54PM

antoobrien wrote: »

Gross pay bill: 18,412,967,000
Numbers
Q1 292,353.57, average = 62,981.84
Q2 292,373.09, average = 62,977.64
Q3: 290,705.20, average = 63,338.97
Q4: 290,861.88, average = 63,304.85

Do they really don't add up do they.:rolleyes:

But the paybill is nowhere near 18 bn (even gross).

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2007-20121.pdf

If you add the pensions and paybill and treat them as gross, then you might get your figure but then you are including all the pensioners and saying that the pension levy is not a pay cut when everyone except a handful of boards.ie posters say that it is.

The net pay bill (i.e. net of pension levy, but not net of taxes, hope you understand the difference) is 14.402 bn. Dividing by your number of employees gives an average salary of €49,515.

If you then realise that the numbers are calculated on a WTE basis and therefore allow for the increased actual number of employees, then the average salary is probably in or around 47k as calculated by the CSO. But then, why let reality get in the way of Dan O'Brien's rant?

beeno67 · 01-03-2013 05:45PM

Godge wrote: »

But the paybill is nowhere near 18 bn (even gross).

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2007-20121.pdf

If you add the pensions and paybill and treat them as gross, then you might get your figure but then you are including all the pensioners and saying that the pension levy is not a pay cut when everyone except a handful of boards.ie posters say that it is.

The net pay bill (i.e. net of pension levy, but not net of taxes, hope you understand the difference) is 14.402 bn. Dividing by your number of employees gives an average salary of €49,515.

If you then realise that the numbers are calculated on a WTE basis and therefore allow for the increased actual number of employees, then the average salary is probably in or around 47k as calculated by the CSO. But then, why let reality get in the way of Dan O'Brien's rant?

Why would you take out the pension levy. Public sector pension has to be funded some way (just like private sector). The bare 5% pension contribution (plus 1.5% spouse & children) would never be sufficient to fund the average public sector pension so you must either include the levy or else allow for the pension some other way. The average pension in public sector is about €28,000 a year. Don't forget the lump sum as well.

I find it fascinating that public sector numbers have fallen 3.3% in last 5 years. Shows the nonsense of public sector workers saying they are doing extra work because of less staff. Maybe in some areas but clearly not across the board especially when so many people are saying services have dis improved dramatically.

beeno67 · 01-03-2013 05:57PM

You quoted this:
“The average gross pay packet in the public sector* was €63,305 last year, down by €1,300 from the peak registered in 2009. But it remains well up on the €58,170 paid in 2007 just as the bubble burst. In 2002, when the bubble began to inflate, the average public sector pay packet stood at €42,035. Even allowing for inflation (22 per cent) in the decade to 2012, average real pay is still one-third above 2002.”

ardmacha wrote: »

This article and the people who post it are deliberately spreading misinformation, as these figures do not include the pension levy. Anyone who deliberately ignores something whose existence is widely known and in the public domain has no credibility whatsoever.

Even if you include the pension levy, pay today is pretty much the same as it was in 2007 as the bubble burst, and, is substantially above 2002 levels allowing for inflation. Public sector workers are often heard saying they have taken enough cuts and cannot afford any more. Clearly this not true. Some have taken cuts, mainly at higher levels. Many/most are now better off than they were at the start of this crisis even after inflation and the pension levy

creedp · 01-03-2013 06:33PM

beeno67 wrote: »

You quoted this:Even if you include the pension levy pay today is pretty much the same as it was in 2007 as the bubble burst and is substantially above 2002 levels allowing for inflation.

For comparison using CSO average wekly figures

PS av wage 2002/2012 €714.89/€918.99 = Increase of 28%

Industry Av weekly wage 2002/2012 €522.69/€803.98 = 54%

Banking/Insurance Av weekly wage 2002/2012 €679.78/€983.24 = 45% increase.

Edit I made a right mess of that .. must have been lacking cafenine - overstated increases by 100%!!

ardmacha · 01-03-2013 06:37PM

Some have taken cuts, mainly at higher levels. Many/most are now better off than they were at the start of this crisis even after inflation

Some individuals are better off as they are now at higher earning point in their careers than 10 years ago, as is everyone else. Others are much worse off and this not based on anything proper calculation of what is their proper pay, but rather on politics.

beeno67 · 01-03-2013 06:45PM

creedp wrote: »

For comparison using CSO average wekly figures

PS av wage 2002/2012 €714.89/€918.99 = Increase of 128%

Industry Av weekly wage 2002/2012 €522.69/€803.98 = 154%

Banking/Insurance Av weekly wage 2002/2012 €679.78/€983.24 = 145% increase.

So wages doubling, after inflation, pay cuts and pension levy. Yet they cannot take more pain????

beeno67 · 01-03-2013 06:48PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Some individuals are better off as they are now at higher earning point in their careers than 10 years ago, as is everyone else. Others are much worse off and this not based on anything proper calculation of what is their proper pay, but rather on politics.

You implied the figures were completely distorted because they failed to include pension levy. That is not true. Anyway pension costs have increased in last 10 years for everyone

Also if those who are better off reduced their wages to 2007 levels plus inflation there would be no need for cuts to other wages in public sector.

Head The Wall · 01-03-2013 07:18PM

ardmacha wrote: »

This article and the people who post it are deliberately spreading misinformation, as these figures do not include the pension levy. Anyone who deliberately ignores something whose existence is widely known and in the public domain has no credibility whatsoever.

How is it disinformation? In the very first line he uses the word gross, its you that's wrong here

Head The Wall · 01-03-2013 07:20PM

donalg1 wrote: »

I am not talking about financial commitments based on CP1 I am talking about someone who say came to the PS ten years ago and signed a contract stating they would eventually after 15 years or whatever earn 39k, and would have thought at the time that they could be ok with 39k a year and if not there might even be a promotion opportunity too.

Now they are being told the best you will get is 35k for now, probably less in another few years and zero chance of promotions ever in your career. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with cutting wages as the country is broke, but there is no point in telling people to put up and shut up when they are constantly being attacked by government, of course they are going to feel aggrieved and get a little annoyed with the situation.

For example say you worked in a cafe and you signed a 30year contract saying in 15 years time you would be on 39k things were good in the business at the time so the owner decides to expand. Now a contractor comes in and ruins the plumbing and leaves the owner to bail the business out by means of a loan to repair the damage caused by the outside party.

So now the owner comes to you and says I will have to cut your wages to finance the loan taken out for the damage that other fella did that had nothing to do with you. Then a year later the owner says again you are getting another pay cut because I need to pay off this loan, but we will enter an agreement for 4 years which will mean you dont get any more cuts.

3 years later the owner comes back and says you know that agreement well I am tearing it up and giving you another cut in pay, oh and by the way you will have to also work extra hours for it, and any overtime you get I am changing the rates of that too.

Are you telling me that employee should turn around and say "ok thats grand, thanks very much", and not feel slightly peed off about it. Especially when said employee sees the contractor driving around in his fancy car living the life of Reilly without a care in the world and having never been held to account for his past mistakes.

Welcome to the real world? Everyone has to deal with these kind of choices, you go on as if joining the PS gave you some get out of jail free card

ardmacha · 01-03-2013 07:22PM

How is it disinformation?

Taking any figure before and after the pension levy and implying that there is no change is untrue by any useful definition of truth. O'Brien is not stupid, he knows this perfectly well, but is spinning. The sad thing is that 5 years into this crisis Bertie Aherne style spinning, rather than proper analysis, is what passes for comment in the Irish Times, a supposedly reputable newspaper, to say nothing of this forum.

fall · 01-03-2013 07:32PM

Sorry bottom line I am a public sector worker and my work load has increased due to a reduced staff, conditions dis improved due to cuts in the sector and my take home pay is less than 2007 so quote what you want but I live the reality. USC, Prsi threshold being changed, pension levy, paycut etc. I can 100% promise you that my wages are lower than in 2007. As a matter of interest what does a private sector worker pay into an average policy? My superannuation and pension levy are around €700 a month. I don't know a lot about pensions if I am honest but that is alot of money for me. I have 15 years experience and I am in management but earn below €60 grand.

tayto lover · 01-03-2013 07:33PM

cursai wrote: »

Prison officers will be getting their own deal. Similar to the one the firefighters will get. This is a disgrace.

Looking at the situation from the outside it is a disgrace.
It's divide and conquer by the Government.
The people who are not offered the same terms like the nurses and garda should now threaten a walk-out at a time not announced in advance. I know the garda are not expected to take serious industrial action but this unfair decision deserves such action. That would make them sit up and think. Time to take the kid gloves off.

SB2013 · 01-03-2013 08:10PM

beeno67 wrote: »

Why would you take out the pension levy. Public sector pension has to be funded some way (just like private sector). The bare 5% pension contribution (plus 1.5% spouse & children) would never be sufficient to fund the average public sector pension so you must either include the levy or else allow for the pension some other way. The average pension in public sector is about €28,000 a year. Don't forget the lump sum as well.

I find it fascinating that public sector numbers have fallen 3.3% in last 5 years. Shows the nonsense of public sector workers saying they are doing extra work because of less staff. Maybe in some areas but clearly not across the board especially when so many people are saying services have dis improved dramatically.

In addition to the pension levy there are three other pensions deductions as well as prsi. All these contribute to the resulting pension

fall · 01-03-2013 08:15PM

The people retiring often held particular positions and with embargoes in place these specific roles were not filled so the people already there picked up the slack, that is where the extra work load has come from.

Head The Wall · 01-03-2013 08:41PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Taking any figure before and after the pension levy and implying that there is no change is untrue by any useful definition of truth. O'Brien is not stupid, he knows this perfectly well, but is spinning. The sad thing is that 5 years into this crisis Bertie Aherne style spinning, rather than proper analysis, is what passes for comment in the Irish Times, a supposedly reputable newspaper, to say nothing of this forum.

Call it what you want, gross is what was mentioned in the article which means before any deductions. If you can point to another dictionary which states otherwise please do.

SB2013 wrote: »

In addition to the pension levy there are three other pensions deductions as well as prsi. All these contribute to the resulting pension

Again what do these have to do in relation to a discussion about gross wage?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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