Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

Annasopra · 01-03-2013 03:56PM

starlings wrote: »

What doesn't make sense is turning one confused, still-developing child that we only know of from a few news articles, who is neither hungry nor sick nor bullied and abused, whose case has not yet been heard by courts of law, into a poster kid for your crusade against global oppression.

Talk about hyperbole and exaggeration

Zillah · 01-03-2013 03:58PM

smash wrote: »

Not the same scenario at all I'm afraid.

Not for you, because you are not a racist. You are prejudiced against transgender people. A racist could use the same arguments that you are using to defend their position. The poor white people might get uncomfortable, the needs of the black person have been met etc.

I'm positive that I know girls who use the same cubicles when they go to the toilet in groups.

Ok, well, presumably the girl in question wouldn't do that. If she did then we could have a conversation about that.

You've mentioned black people and the holocost and now cancer. None of which have anything to do with the conversation at hand.

The holocaust and cancer were brought up because someone else mentioned that there are sick people enduring worse that this girl. Ok, sure. It's irrelevant, just like the holocaust and cancer.

Man, I am having to do so much thinking for you here. Catch up.

starlings wrote: »

What doesn't make sense is turning one confused, still-developing child that we only know of from a few news articles, who is neither hungry nor sick nor bullied and abused, whose case has not yet been heard by courts of law, into a poster kid for your crusade against global oppression.

My...my crusade against global oppression? lol. You people.

starlings · 01-03-2013 03:58PM

mango salsa wrote: »

Talk about hyperbole and exaggeration

I was.

Way too much extrapolation on far too little info.

Playboy · 01-03-2013 04:00PM

Zillah wrote: »

lol

I must learn to take my own advice.

Do you need a hand to come down from that horse? Reminds me of the constant anti-semitism remarks when criticising Israel. Lets paint people as something negative to deflect from the their valid arguments.

Playboy · 01-03-2013 04:05PM

Zillah wrote: »

They go to the room together, but use separate cubicles. Did you not know that?

lol... dont speak to many girls then?

Zillah wrote: »

By drawing these parallels I hope to help people understand that their positions don't make any sense.

How nice of you! What would the internet do without you?

Zillah · 01-03-2013 04:05PM

Playboy wrote: »

Do you need a hand to come down from that horse? Reminds me of the constant anti-semitism remarks when criticising Israel. Lets paint people as something negative to deflect from the their valid arguments.

There have been no valid arguments. If I counter them they just start posting nonsense that's kind of related to the topic but doesn't actually make any sort of a point. Some girls don't like to go to the bathroom in groups? Other people have a worse time that transgender children? Transgender people make some other people uncomfortable? These aren't arguments, it's vague contrariness.

I'm seeing two things in from my opponents: 1) Idiot comments that don't support their position in anyway, and 2) Appeals to bigotry. That's it. It's pointless. If I counter their point they abandon it or post a complete non-sequitur - sometimes they make vague comments about them not liking my attitude. Arguing with people's prejudice is pointless. I'm out.

smash · 01-03-2013 04:08PM

Zillah wrote: »

Not for you, because you are not a racist. You are prejudiced against transgender people.

No I'm not. Stop throwing out accusations please.

Zillah wrote: »

Ok, well, presumably the girl in question wouldn't do that. If she did then we could have a conversation about that.

So now it's 'presumably'... until such time as her bathroom activities are monitored?

Zillah wrote: »

The holocaust and cancer were brought up because someone else mentioned that there are sick people enduring worse that this girl. Ok, sure. It's irrelevant, just like the holocaust and cancer.

Someone else mentioned that there are sick people enduring worse that this girl, yes they did... It was in relation to people with disabilities etc who have to use specific bathrooms, and who would need help in doing so. They do have it harder than this girl when it comes to facilities they use.

Zillah wrote: »

Man, I am having to do so much thinking for you here. Catch up.

You may want to try thinking a bit harder!

Playboy · 01-03-2013 04:15PM

Zillah wrote: »

There have been no valid arguments. If I counter them they just start posting nonsense that's kind of related to the topic but doesn't actually make any sort of a point. Some girls don't like to go to the bathroom in groups? Other people have a worse time that transgender children? Transgender people make some other people uncomfortable? These aren't arguments, it's vague contrariness.

I'm seeing two things in from my opponents: 1) Idiot comments that don't support their position in anyway, and 2) Appeals to bigotry. That's it. It's pointless. If I counter their point they abandon it or post a complete non-sequitur - sometimes they make vague comments about them not liking my attitude. Arguing with people's prejudice is pointless. I'm out.

Well what is your point? If the child who has not been confirmed as a transgender individual isnt allowed to use the female toilets or people have reservations about the child using female toliets then they are bigoted and prejudiced? How about the explanation that this is an extremely unique and confusing situation for everyone involved and that there is no real 'right' answer other than to do away with seperate sex toilets. Until then a solution needs to be found within the law that accomadates the childs needs, that solution is using the nurses bathroom if the child is uncomfortable using the male toilets. The 'reality' of the situation is that no one knows yet if this child is going to grow up and still feel they are in the wrong body, it could be a phase, it might not be but until we know for sure we cant start allowing them to breach basic social norms because they want to. A black person is black from birth and they know it and everybody else knows it, discrimation against them as discrimination against an adult transgender person is wrong. This case is not the same and that is quite obvious

Zillah · 01-03-2013 04:26PM

Playboy wrote: »

Well what is your point? If the child who has not been confirmed as a transgender individual isnt allowed to use the female toilets or people have reservations about the child using female toliets then they are bigoted and prejudiced? How about the explanation that this is an extremely unique and confusing situation for everyone involved and that there is no real 'right' answer other than to do away with seperate sex toilets. Until then a solution needs to be found within the law that accomadates the childs needs, that solution is using the nurses bathroom if the child is uncomfortable using the male toilets. The 'reality' of the situation is that no one knows yet if this child is going to grow up and still feel they are in the wrong body, it could be a phase, it might not be but until we know for sure we cant start allowing them to breach basic social norms because they want to. A black person is black from birth and they know it and everybody else knows it, discrimation against them as discrimination against an adult transgender person is wrong. This case is not the same and that is quite obvious

A person's gender identity should be accommodated, not discriminated against. If this girl decides later she was wrong and identifies as male then he just goes back to behaving like a male. That's nice and simple, how is it difficult? I fail to see why age is relevant, we're not talking about surgery here. The idea that we're "breaching basic social norms" is something to be resisted. Overturning basic social norms is how progress is made. We did it for slavery, we did it for women voting, we've mostly done it for gay people, and we've barely started doing it for transgendered people.

Someone expressing the thoughts that you've expressed doesn't deserve to be called prejudiced, so I've responded to you (I also agree getting rid of separate sex toilets), but yes, most of the idiocy I've seen in this thread is prejudiced. People saying things to make it seem like they have a point, but at the end of the day they just want transpeople to stay quiet and out of sight so the nice normal people don't have to deal with them. You don't have to be burning crosses to be intolerant.

I'm actually out now though.

awec · 01-03-2013 04:27PM

Basically, from this thread it seems it's ok to ignore the objections of anyone so long as you aren't ignoring the objection of the minority in which case you are a bigot.

Ush1 · 01-03-2013 04:30PM

awec wrote: »

Basically, from this thread it seems it's ok to ignore the objections of anyone so long as you aren't ignoring the objection of the minority in which case you are a bigot.

Also, some logical conclusions like that we should not have seperate toilets or changing rooms for men and women? Not that I mind, but is that the goal?

TheChizler · 01-03-2013 04:34PM

Playboy wrote: »

If the child who has not been confirmed as a transgender individual isnt allowed to use the female toilets or people have reservations about the child using female toliets then they are bigoted and prejudiced?/Quote]
How many times does it have to be pointed out that the transgenderism HAS been confirmed by a professional?

Boombastic · 01-03-2013 04:35PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Also, some logical conclusions like that we should not have seperate toilets or changing rooms for men and women? Not that I mind, but is that the goal?

Seemingly you need a third toilet and changing room....

Tar.Aldarion · 01-03-2013 04:35PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Also, some logical conclusions like that we should not have seperate toilets or changing rooms for men and women? Not that I mind, but is that the goal?

I don't think society wants that at them moment so there is no sense forcing it/doing it for the sake of it, but really, I don't see why there are. I have used unisex facilities a lot and it's a non issue. I don't see why people are raised so repressed about something natural. Although that debate is for a completely different thread.

smash · 01-03-2013 04:39PM

Zillah wrote: »

A person's gender identity should be accommodated, not discriminated against. If this girl decides later she was wrong and identifies as male then he just goes back to behaving like a male. That's nice and simple, how is it difficult?

Fairly difficult I'd say for the people who have previously let this person be involved with their life, under the pretense that their personal and/or private moments could be shared with someone who was in the same mind set.

Zillah wrote: »

I also agree getting rid of separate sex toilets

Because I'd say a lot of women would feel comfortable changing a sanitary towel with a man in the cubicle beside her. You wouldn't have to worry about these scenarios, but you need to consider them. And consider the fact that it would make people uncomfortable!

Ush1 · 01-03-2013 04:40PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't think society wants that at them moment so there is no sense forcing it/doing it for the sake of it, but really, I don't see why there are. I have used unisex facilities a lot and it's a non issue. I don't see why people are raised so repressed about something natural. Although that debate is for a completely different thread.

Yeah.

As a follow on though, if we can legally pander to the pyschological processes of individuals in cases with transgender, where does it end and would it always be a human rights issue?

Can I be legally made a woman with no alterations to my body. Can I be legally a tiger if I really feel I am one?

awec · 01-03-2013 04:42PM

smash wrote: »

Because I'd say a lot of women would feel comfortable changing a sanitary towel with a man in the cubicle beside her. You wouldn't have to worry about these scenarios, but you need to consider them. And consider the fact that it would make people uncomfortable!

This is my point.

According to some on this thread, it's perfectly fine to ignore the concerns of these people.

smash · 01-03-2013 04:45PM

awec wrote: »

According to some on this thread, it's perfectly fine to ignore the concerns of these people.

Of course it is. Sure as long as the minority is sorted out then it's apparently ok to ignore the privacy or concerns of others :rolleyes:

clairefontaine · 01-03-2013 04:49PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Yeah.

As a follow on though, if we can legally pander to the pyschological processes of individuals in cases with transgender, where does it end and would it always be a human rights issue?

Can I be legally made a woman with no alterations to my body. Can I be legally a tiger if I really feel I am one?

When they get to sex ed is when they will really run into trouble. How far does it go? Will she sit with the girls and learn about ovulation and her period and watch filmstrips on how to change your sanitary towel? Something entirely inapplicable to him?

Or with the boys and learn whatever it is they learn about their changing bodies which is necessary for him to know?

At that point I'd say it becomes dangerous to the extent it's feeding the perception.

The bathrooms are just the tip of the ice berg.

smash · 01-03-2013 04:55PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

When they get to sex ed is when they will really run into trouble. How far does it go? Will she sit with the girls and learn about ovulation and her period and watch filmstrips on how to change your sanitary towel? Something entirely inapplicable to him?

Or with the boys and learn whatever it is they learn about their changing bodies which is necessary for him to know?

Maybe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

Playboy · 01-03-2013 05:01PM

TheChizler wrote: »

How many times does it have to be pointed out that the transgenderism HAS been confirmed by a professional?

Well unless the child has been subject to a number of test that indicate causation then I dont think its possible for anyone to confirm anything. The last time I checked no such tests existed and its impossible to say how much influence the parents have had on the behaviour the child is exibhiting The child might be showing traits/signs but it is not an exact science and the child is certainly too young to make the decision for itself or to have the decision made for it. The child sexually is a boy, it's gender is yet to be determined until the child is able to make that decision independently.

starlings · 01-03-2013 05:01PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

When they get to sex ed is when they will really run into trouble. How far does it go? Will she sit with the girls and learn about ovulation and her period and watch filmstrips on how to change your sanitary towel? Something entirely inapplicable to him?

Or with the boys and learn whatever it is they learn about their changing bodies which is necessary for him to know?

At that point I'd say it becomes dangerous to the extent it's feeding the perception.

The bathrooms are just the tip of the ice berg.

my mixed school (late 80's) taught sex ed to the whole class in second year (13-14 year-olds), in both biology and religion. I think it's good to teach boys about girls and vice versa. After the sniggers, there was a real "hate to be you!" slagging when we considered periods and involuntary erections.

This was just basic functions, though, no mention of sexual pleasure or sexual orientation. If they covered that too, there would be room to discuss gender identification.

clairefontaine · 01-03-2013 05:07PM

starlings wrote: »

my mixed school (late 80's) taught sex ed to the whole class in second year (13-14 year-olds), in both biology and religion. I think it's good to teach boys about girls and vice versa. After the sniggers, there was a real "hate to be you!" slagging when we considered periods and involuntary erections.

This was just basic functions, though, no mention of sexual pleasure or sexual orientation. If they covered that too, there would be room to discuss gender identification.

In the US the boys and girls are seperated at around 9 for sex ed, in which they learn about their changing bodies, menstruation, etc, what is happening and what to prepare for.

Then at 12 or so they get the more sex ed which is actually about reproduction, sex and being safe, during which there is no gender segregation.

kunst nugget · 01-03-2013 05:09PM

Just out of interest how many people on this thread are women and how many would have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet? And if you have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet, what are the specific issues you would have a problem with?

starlings · 01-03-2013 05:15PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

In the US the boys and girls are seperated at around 9 for sex ed, in which they learn about their changing bodies, menstruation, etc, what is happening and what to prepare for.

Then at 12 or so they get the more sex ed which is actually about reproduction, sex and being safe, during which there is no gender segregation.

Well, if Coy's parents are open to her identification as a girl, they will most likely prepare her at home for this so she can cope with the school instruction. It'll be a minefield for the school if that's the US set-up, but I'd hope a sensitive teacher could deal with Coy's inclusion in either group.

starlings · 01-03-2013 05:18PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Just out of interest how many people on this thread are women and how many would have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet? And if you have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet, what are the specific issues you would have a problem with?

Woman here with no problem whatsoever with a trans woman using a ladies toilet.

kunst nugget · 01-03-2013 05:23PM

starlings wrote: »

Woman here with no problem whatsoever with a trans woman using a ladies toilet.

People seem to be arguing here that women wouldn't be comfortable with a trans woman with a penis using the ladies toilet. I'm just trying to gauge if this is true and just wondering what would be the source of this discomfort?

jaffacakesyum · 01-03-2013 05:30PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Just out of interest how many people on this thread are women and how many would have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet? And if you have an issue with a trans woman using a ladies toilet, what are the specific issues you would have a problem with?

I'm a woman and have no isses with a trans woman using the ladies toilets. I do, however, have an issue with an 18 month old child "identifying" as a different gender, and their parents raising them as such. I don't think it's in a CHILD'S best interested to be raised a different sex, when realistically a child of that age can't possibly have an understanding of something as complex as gender identity. If the child later turns out to identify as transgender, that's fine. But I always hate hearing stories of how "liberal" and "out there" parents are by raising little babies as different genders to what they are born with. Without trying to be over-dramatic, I actually do think it is child abuse.

Playboy wrote: »

So having read the first 10 or so pages and the last 3 or 4 pages and a few in middle and not having the patience to read through the rest of what is mostly drivel and ranting, can someone tell me why the conversation at this end if the thread seems to be focusing on the bathroom rather than the parents?

Simply put a child of 6 let alone 18 months will have issues grasping the concept of gender. To think a child is ready to 'decide' for themselves what gender they will be for the rest of their lives at such a young age is a ludicrous notion. The child should be allowed to play and behave as they wish but not to the extent that it will impact their own view of themselves and their place in the world which will be reinforced by others around them thus putting the child in a position where he/she feels under too much pressure to change his or her mind. Nobody knows what impact puberty will have on this childs view of themsleves. Maybe a huge increase in testosterone levels will give he/she a different perspective on their own gender identity. If the child has been encouraged in his female behaviour/preferences/traits (whatever) from such a young age and is presented by his parents as a female then what choice does that child have to become male again if he wishes? Wont he be famous for being the transgendered child? Wont everyone treat him like a woman? Doesnt he run the risk of getting trapped by a decision he was too young to make?

I personally dont care if an adult wants to get corrective surgery to become half elephant as long as the adult is making a concious decision with an understanding of the impact that decision will have on the rest of their life. I know many transgendered people both pre and post op and while they say they felt different from quite a young age I dont think anyone of them claimed that it would have been easier had their parents encouraged them to be female from such a young age. I havent asked the specific question but hey ho I will be sure to next time I'm speaking to one.

In respect to the toilet issue. Cant see a problem with the child using the toilet in the nurses station. The simple fact is the child is different from the majority and it's something he/she will need to get used to because these are the types of issues he/she will face for the rest of his/her life. The school has to comply with the law. If the parents want the law changed then they should lobby their politician. Personally I'm in favour of uni-sex toilets... cant understand why we need to seperate sexes in this day and age. The only bonus is that for men you tend to get in and out quicker due to urinals and less faffing around.

Nail on the head.

KamiKazeKitten · 01-03-2013 05:30PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

People seem to be arguing here that women wouldn't be comfortable with a trans woman with a penis using the ladies toilet. I'm just trying to gauge if this is true and just wondering what would be the source of this discomfort?

Woman here, no problem at all.
Wouldn't even know if they were trans I think.

awec · 01-03-2013 05:30PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

People seem to be arguing here that women wouldn't be comfortable with a trans woman with a penis using the ladies toilet. I'm just trying to gauge if this is true and just wondering what would be the source of this discomfort?

You're not going to gauge that from boards.ie.

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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