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Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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Comments

  • #692
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,354 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I've already pointed out, based on information you yourself provided, that the school met it's obligations under Colorado State law by accommodating the child with appropriate facilities for their presented gender in the school nurses station. The child refused to use the facilities and was adamant that they be allowed use the bathroom used by children whose physical gender was female.

    This to me, when common sense is applied, just comes across as the child behaving like a spoilt brat and wanting everything their own way, the parents then expecting that everyone else should fall into line to accommodate the child.

    Refusing to be ostracised and segregated from your peers is behaving like a spoilt brat?


  • #693
    starlings
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    Zillah wrote: »
    Please elaborate.

    "Their stated reasons aren't their real reasons."

    So you don't have to listen to discussion of the intricacies of the issue at hand - it's defending rights all the way and anyone who finds complexities is just going in circles?

    That is circular and prejudicial.


  • #694
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    It's an observation, not a recommendation for future behaviour. By all means, give a bigot the benefit of the doubt, I'm just predicting that sooner or later they'll show their true colours and that a close-minded conservative desire to shun those that are different is all that drives them.


  • #695
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    TheChizler wrote: »
    When a psychologist verifies that what the child wants is not just a phase and part if who they are. Obviously you would never consider surgery until after the major changes that occur in puberty.


    Chizler that's exactly the point I'm trying to get across-

    You're listening to the child when it suits you, and then when it doesn't suit you, you ignore the child.

    The argument that you just want the child to be happy is suddenly turned on it's head and is revealed to be-

    "You only want the child to be happy, as long as it suits you".

    This leads a "closing the gate after the horse has bolted" scenario imo. The parents will have to face this when the child pushes their boundaries yet again and wants to be accommodated, perhaps by suggesting they want what they consider life saving medical procedures, and the parents who were happy to put everyone else out, will suddenly realise that for the child's benefit, god forbid they will have to say no to the child for once!


    At least I too hope that common sense would prevail and they would say no, because there seems to be a complete lack of common sense displayed by the parents so far!


  • #696
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    smash wrote: »
    That really is quite an insulting and extremely cocky post. Insinuating that if we're not with you, we're against you also is quite low.

    Ok, you answer me this, then:
    Do you think there is a genuine danger that allowing a transgendered student to use a cubicle in the girl's bathroom will result in female students seeing male genitals? And that this danger is a genuine reason for your opposition?

    Because that is not a reasonable position to take, so I have to conjecture that there is something else going on.


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  • #697
    starlings
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭starlings


    Zillah wrote: »
    It's an observation, not a recommendation for future behaviour. By all means, give a bigot the benefit of the doubt, I'm just predicting that sooner or later they'll show their true colours and that a close-minded conservative desire to shun those that are different is all that drives them.

    and be careful not to become bigoted yourself. Best foot forward and you'll go a lot further. :)


  • #698
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Stark wrote: »

    Refusing to be ostracised and segregated from your peers is behaving like a spoilt brat?


    No, thinking the world revolves around you is behaving like a spoilt brat, even worse when your weak willed parents accommodate that view, and worse again when they expect to impose the will of the child on their peers and their peers parents.


  • #699
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    How would you suggest accommodating a child who presented as male but had physical characteristics of a female?

    Would you suggest they too be forced to use the female toilets?

    I don't know why you are bringing forcing into this. What evidence have you that Coy is using girls toilets against her will?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #700
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Have you ever heard the expression "monkey see, monkey do", as in if the child is only aware that the default behaviour when urinating is to assume the sitting position, then that's the behaviour they follow.
    Slightly unrelated, I think I remember a story in the UK where notices were put up in uni toilets asking students not to stand on the toilet seats. Apparently the default position in many Asian countries is squatting.

    So there really are no such thing as 'transgender traits' in 4yo boys. Merely behaviours that don't fit our current cultural construct of gender


  • #701
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Zillah wrote: »
    By all means, give a bigot the benefit of the doubt, I'm just predicting that sooner or later they'll show their true colours and that a close-minded conservative desire to shun those that are different is all that drives them.

    If there's one thing I can't stand it the "Am I right, or am I right" attitude. Especially when it's coupled with false preconceptions and accusations such as that of bigotry.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Ok, you answer me this, then:
    Do you think there is a genuine danger that allowing a transgendered student to use a cubicle in the girl's bathroom will result in female students seeing male genitals? And that this danger is a genuine reason for your opposition?
    Genuine danger, no. But I said possibility didn't I. And to add to that, there's the very real position that it will make other occupants feel uncomfortable. But sure you wouldn't care as long as just that 1 person feels ok about it.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Because that is not a reasonable position to take, so I have to conjecture that there is something else going on.
    What's going on is that it's a space where access is defined by sex, not gender. But sure convolute that as much as you want!


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  • #702
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I've already pointed out, based on information you yourself provided, that the school met it's obligations under Colorado State law by accommodating the child with appropriate facilities for their presented gender in the school nurses station. The child refused to use the facilities and was adamant that they be allowed use the bathroom used by children whose physical gender was female.

    facilities appropriate to their gender identity means the girl's facilities in Coy's case.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    This to me, when common sense is applied, just comes across as the child behaving like a spoilt brat and wanting everything their own way, the parents then expecting that everyone else should fall into line to accommodate the child.

    this is a wild and baseless claim, where are you even getting this nonsense about her being a "spoilt brat"!?

    the school should have accommodated her as they did all along! then the school suddenly change things.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Quite the opposite Links and far from being condescending, I happen to be just as passionate about this issue as you are, we just have a different perspective on it. If I were to be condescending, you would certainly be made aware of the difference between that, and me just having an opinion that doesn't jig with your conservative world view.

    crap like "baby steps now" is just condescending rubbish and doesn't help with the discussion at all,
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Since Mad has not answered the question, maybe you could-

    Where do you draw the line between what the child wants, and what a parent wants for the child?

    If the child at four years of age is understood to understand all the issues surrounding the concept of what it is to be transgender, and were to tell you that they wanted to transition with a combination of hormones and surgery, would you then listen to them too and support their decision and do what you could to enable them to undergo medical treatments and procedures to transition at four years of age, having put forward the idea all along that they understood all the concepts and issues involved in what it is to be transgender?

    as is understood by medical science, all evidence supports that being transgender is an inborn trait, it is something that occurs in utero. it's not a concept or issue to be understood.

    no I would not "enable" them to have any sort of treatment at age 4, nobody would!

    best practice is to wait and see if the gender identification persists until the child is older, under supervision of a psychologist who deals in these issues, and if it is persistent, discuss the possibility of puberty blockers at an appropriate age. the blockers have the effect of giving everyone more time to see if it persists. a child wouldn't be able to start hormone treatment until the age of 15 or 16 as far as I understand, and then IF it's something they want, surgery after they're of the age of 18.


  • #703
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    At least I too hope that common sense would prevail and they would say no, because there seems to be a complete lack of common sense displayed by the parents so far!

    What would YOU suggest the parents have done?


  • #704
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Links234 wrote: »
    facilities appropriate to their gender identity means the girl's facilities in Coy's case.
    Lets go back to the changing room scenario again. How would you suggest that's handled?
    Links234 wrote: »
    the school should have accommodated her as they did all along! then the school suddenly change things.
    The school offered alternative accommodation which would suit everyone.


  • #705
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Zillah wrote: »

    It doesn't matter. Really, in most discussions where one side is arguing in defense of the rights of a minority and the other side is against them, the anti-side frequently present a diverse range of reasons and rationalisations, but it's just a front. The truth is that they have a conservative, judgmental attitude and weirdos should be shunned, everything else is hot-air. Opponents of gay marriage rant about adoption: Think of the children!. Transgendered people using the "wrong" bathroom: Think of the genitals!

    Their reasons don't need to connect with reality, they need to present the facade of legitimacy and that's all that matters. It really really explains a lot about why debating with prejudiced people is so frustrating: Their stated reasons aren't their real reasons, so it doesn't matter how thoroughly you out-debate them, they'll just go in circles, or ignore you, or invent something new. It's amazing how consistent it is once you learn to look out for it.


    See that's where you're wrong. Just like you have done with this post, you wade into a discussion having already set an aggressive stance on the issue, and you expect to throw your weight around as if your opinion carries any more weight than those already involved in the discussion.

    It's not about "out-debating" each other, this isn't a game, it's a discussion, and in a discussion all the participants put forward their opinions and discuss the developed points from those opinions. It's not about getting one over on anyone or taking the moral or intellectual high ground like you have tried to do with the above post.


    You jumped in on the discussion in one post quite clearly displayed your conservative, judgemental, intolerant attitude.


  • #706
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    smash wrote: »
    Genuine danger, no. But I said possibility didn't I.

    If you don't consider if to be a genuine danger then it can't be a a motivating factor for you, so we're left wondering why you ever brought it up. It's almost like you're just saying stuff to rationalise a position without that stuff actually being your real reason...

    I concede that getting hit by a meteor is a possibility, but I don't let it affect my behaviour because I don't consider it a genuine danger.
    And to add to that, there's the very real position that it will make other occupants feel uncomfortable. But sure you wouldn't care as long as just that 1 person feels ok about it.

    We'd best make sure that the other students understand issues around transgender people then, hadn't we? They've no real reason to be uncomfortable - education is the key here.
    What's going on is that it's a space where access is defined by sex, not gender. But sure convolute that as much as you want!

    Let's redefine the access criteria then. Problem solved!


  • #707
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    smash wrote: »
    Lets go back to the changing room scenario again. How would you suggest that's handled?

    changing rooms have curtains or doors. I've used public changing rooms regularly without fuss, you're trying to make an issue where there is none
    smash wrote: »
    The school offered alternative accommodation which would suit everyone.

    singling out the poor girl does not suit everyone, especially as the school had been accomodating and supportive all along!


  • #708
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Zillah wrote: »
    We'd best make sure that the other students understand issues around transgender people then, hadn't we? They've no real reason to be uncomfortable - education is the key here.

    Thank you :)

    feels like I've been pushing a boulder up a hill here! you take it, I need a break ;)


  • #709
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Links234 wrote: »
    changing rooms have curtains or doors. I've used public changing rooms regularly without fuss, you're trying to make an issue where there is none

    Have you read the thread in TGC about changing rooms? It is an issue!


  • #710
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    I've only read the first couple of pages and the thread seems to have gone off on a real tangent.
    As far as I can gather this is a boy we're talking about, not a girl. The parents apparently decided when the kid was 18 months old it was "presenting" as a girl. So they decided to raise it as a girl from then on, what kind of madness is this?.
    How on earth are the parents allowed to get away with what is child abuse?, do they have social services over?.


  • #711
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    The parents apparently decided when the kid was 18 months old it was "presenting" as a girl.

    No. They. Didn't. :eek:


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  • #712
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Links234 wrote: »
    Thank you :)

    feels like I've been pushing a boulder up a hill here! you take it, I need a break ;)

    Oooooh no no no, if you think I'm wading into this shitpile you're terribly mistake. This is a driveby posting! :)


  • #713
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    mango salsa wrote: »

    I don't know why you are bringing forcing into this. What evidence have you that Coy is using girls toilets against her will?

    He's too young to understand, probably.

    The cultish nature of the "gender as construct" believers continues to amuse, but horrify. Its beyond the level of stupidity of the creationists. This child is male.


  • #714
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Links234 wrote: »
    No. They. Didn't. :eek:
    Well they retrospectively applied the logic that his behaviour at 18 months fitted that of a girl.

    You can see the massive potential for bias here?


  • #715
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Links234 wrote: »

    facilities appropriate to their gender identity means the girl's facilities in Coy's case.



    this is a wild and baseless claim, where are you even getting this nonsense about her being a "spoilt brat"!?

    the school should have accommodated her as they did all along! then the school suddenly change things.



    crap like "baby steps now" is just condescending rubbish and doesn't help with the discussion at all,



    as is understood by medical science, all evidence supports that being transgender is an inborn trait, it is something that occurs in utero. it's not a concept or issue to be understood.

    no I would not "enable" them to have any sort of treatment at age 4, nobody would!

    best practice is to wait and see if the gender identification persists until the child is older, under supervision of a psychologist who deals in these issues, and if it is persistent, discuss the possibility of puberty blockers at an appropriate age. the blockers have the effect of giving everyone more time to see if it persists. a child wouldn't be able to start hormone treatment until the age of 15 or 16 as far as I understand, and then IF it's something they want, surgery after they're of the age of 18.

    No actual scientist, evolutionist, or neuro scientist believes this. Some psychologists do but psychology is a pseudo science.


  • #716
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Links234 wrote: »
    No. They. Didn't. :eek:

    From the article...

    Coy Mathis, 6, was born a male but has presented as a female since she was 18-months-old, her mother Kathryn Mathis told talk show host Katie Couric.


  • #717
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    From the article...

    Coy Mathis, 6, was born a male but has presented as a female since she was 18-months-old, her mother Kathryn Mathis told talk show host Katie Couric.

    Read the full thread.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #718
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Haven't got the time to read 48 pages sorry, care to elaborate or point out my mistake?


  • #719
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    No actual scientist, evolutionist, or neuro scientist believes this. Some psychologists do but psychology is a pseudo science.

    >_<
    what?!

    more evidence exists that proves transsexuality, than evidence that proves homosexuality. :confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yLxoGcAuoA


    Transsexual gene link identified
    Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
    Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids
    Regional Grey Matter Variation in Male-to-Female Transsexualism
    A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
    White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study.
    A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality
    Gender Identity and phantom genitalia

    there's dozens upon dozens more peer reviewed studies that I can't even be bothered to drag up, and they all say the same thing, that the evidence supports a biological cause of transsexuality.


    that's it... I'm done. take it or leave it, I can't keep up with this thread.


  • #720
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Links234 wrote: »
    as is understood by medical science, all evidence supports that being transgender is an inborn trait, it is something that occurs in utero. it's not a concept or issue to be understood.
    No it doesn't
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    No actual scientist, evolutionist, or neuro scientist believes this. Some psychologists do but psychology is a pseudo science.
    I wouldn't go as far as saying it'a pseudoscience, but it is on the edge and as such has its fair share of quacks.

    Any medical doctor who prescribes sex hormones or blockers to a child entering puberty for no other reason than to see if a behaviour persists should be struck off IMO.


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  • #721
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    No it doesn't

    really, I'm just...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwCZjGO6HIA


    done


This discussion has been closed.
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