Ireland post Mortem/new coach

Kayless · 26-02-2013 2:34pm #1

Consistency, as Irish rugby fans we've heard this word batted about time and time again by the players, management and pundits alike. After the Argentina and Wales game, I for one thought Ireland had finally clicked. Most people would agree that the selection for the Wales game was the best in quite some time and no one, not even his arch critics could fault Kidney. So where did it all go wrong?

Silver Lining

The truth is last Sundays result was the silver lining, a turning point, the kick up the gluteus maximus that Ireland needed.
Of course with a new coach and management team (whoever that may be *couch Joe Schmitt) there’s obviously going to be wholesale change and so it’s got me thinking, what would a new coach do regarding team selection?
A really obvious problem last Sunday was our complete lack of impact off the bench, O'gara for eg. Actually made us weaker, when we could have had Ian madigan coming on instead!

I believe the next coach should be Joe (if he'll have us

) and not because he has won HC’s but because the man knows how to “build” a team with the resources he has, much like Lancaster has done with England.

Below is the squad that beat Wales

IRELAND: R Kearney; C Gilroy, B O'Driscoll, G D'Arcy, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross; M McCarthy, D Ryan; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip (capt).

REPLACEMENTS: S Cronin, D Kilcoyne, D Fitzpatrick, C Henry, D O'Callaghan, E Reddan, R O'Gara, K Earls.

This would be my squad for the AIs

IRELAND: Zebo, C Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, Bowe, Sexton, P Marshall, Healy, Best (capt), Ross, Henderson, D Ryan, SOB, Henry, O'Mahony

REPLACEMENTS: Strauss, Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick (is there anyone else?) Heaslip, McCarthy, Murray, Madigan (or Jackson), Fitzgerald

I know it’s harsh on guys like D'Arcy, Kearney and to some extent Murray but it’s time Ireland started to pick on form rather than reputation. A backline consisting of 5 Ulster players would bring cohesion to the squad, players like Kearney and Heaslip should have to play their way into the squad, this way we can guarantee that:

A. Players want to play
B. Competition for places

This is just a rough idea of what the next coach could go for, obviously by the time the Ai’s and the next 6 nations starts there will be more new blood.

If you were the new coach who would you choose? Who would you drop? Would you name a new caption?

TheKeenMachine · 26-02-2013 2:44pm

Kayless wrote: »

Consistency, as Irish rugby fans we've heard this word batted about time and time again by the players, management and pundits alike. After the Argentina and Wales game, I for one thought Ireland had finally clicked. Most people would agree that the selection for the Wales game was the best in quite some time and no one, not even his arch critics could fault Kidney. So where did it all go wrong?

Silver Lining

The truth is last Sundays result was the silver lining, a turning point, the kick up the gluteus maximus that Ireland needed.
Of course with a new coach and management team (whoever that may be *couch Joe Schmitt) there’s obviously going to be wholesale change and so it’s got me thinking, what would a new coach do regarding team selection?
A really obvious problem last Sunday was our complete lack of impact off the bench, O'gara for eg. Actually made us weaker, when we could have had Ian madigan coming on instead!

I believe the next coach should be Joe (if he'll have us ) and not because he has won HC’s but because the man knows how to “build” a team with the resources he has, much like Lancaster has done with England.

Below is the squad that beat Wales

IRELAND: R Kearney; C Gilroy, B O'Driscoll, G D'Arcy, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross; M McCarthy, D Ryan; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip (capt).

REPLACEMENTS: S Cronin, D Kilcoyne, D Fitzpatrick, C Henry, D O'Callaghan, E Reddan, R O'Gara, K Earls.

This would be my squad for the AIs

IRELAND: Zebo, C Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, Bowe, Sexton, P Marshall, Healy, Best (capt), Ross, Henderson, D Ryan, SOB, Henry, O'Mahony

REPLACEMENTS: Strauss, Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick (is there anyone else?) Heaslip, McCarthy, Murray, Madigan (or Jackson), Fitzgerald

I know it’s harsh on guys like D'Arcy, Kearney and to some extent Murray but it’s time Ireland started to pick on form rather than reputation. A backline consisting of 5 Ulster players would bring cohesion to the squad, players like Kearney and Heaslip should have to play their way into the squad, this way we can guarantee that:

A. Players want to play
B. Competition for places

This is just a rough idea of what the next coach could go for, obviously by the time the Ai’s and the next 6 nations starts there will be more new blood.

If you were the new coach who would you choose? Who would you drop? Would you name a new caption?

I think that is pretty harsh on Heaslip and Kearney tbh. They might not be on the best of form this year but both are quality players who will, more than likely be Lions in the summer. And if I was to replace Kearney, it wouldn't be with Zebo. What form has he shown in the 15 jersey this year? And it's far too early to strip Heaslip of captaincy, give the guy a chance. And also, Henderson has played his senior rugby at 6, has he not? How has he earned a starting place in the 2nd Row ahead of McCarthy, DOC, Stevenson, POC, Toner or Cullen?

CatFromHue · 26-02-2013 2:48pm

My Ireland post mortem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiMOKmp0uZc

Mr. Sherman represents the fans, the Dr. represents the media.

Who would I like as new coach and Captain

Quint2010 · 26-02-2013 2:57pm

I don't think Kearney is playing that well but he our best FB by a country mile. Joe Schmidt will not stay in Ireland longer than the end of next year. For me-Mike Ruddock should get it. He's done a great job with the '20's plus we would have none of the provincial BS. Failing that-Mallett.

arodabomb · 26-02-2013 3:01pm

I agree with some parts. I don't think Schmidt will be our next manager though. TBH I haven't a clue who will get it. The names often touted Schmmidt/O Shea, I don't think will want it if/when Kidney leaves.

Also Kearney dropped for Zebo? Kearney is a phenomenal fullback who is only recently back from injury, has been solid enough, nowhere near his best. But I can't see how Zebo has done enough at fullback to take his place. I think Zebo is a great player, and has the potential to be brilliant, but Kearney is still ahead of him.

Agreed Heaslip as been poor at captain, perhaps he won't make a good one, perhaps he's only learning to be captain. I'm not sure how he will progress, but taking it off him now is a bit harsh. Although the new man will have more leeway in terms of selecting a new captain. But I agree, Heaslip has not shown an ability to handle the decisions of captain without it impacting on his own game and the captaincy.

Dropping Heaslip in favour of O Mahony? Not a hope, POM has shown promise, but he is not a better player nor a better number 8 than Heaslip. On the assumption that Ferris will never be available long term, I can't see past a back three unit of SOB, Henry, Heaslip. I feel Heaslip has let the captaincy impact on his own game and this has resulted in some silly penalties, but he is a far superior player than POM at this moment in time. He isn't making the barnstorming runs of old, and probably isn't at the top of his game for a year or two, but he is still a vital cog in the team.

By and large agree with the rest, though Cave will need to step up a notch as he has never got a chance at this level (I do rate him, and its not his fault that he hasn't got a chance, but he is very unproven at international level, that said he doesn't have massive competition when BOD retires). Wings are very hard to call, Bowe is head and shoulders above the rest, but all the others on form, there is very little between Fitzgerald, Gilroy, Earls and Zebo. Trimble may even get a shot with a new man in charge. I wouldn't rule out McFadden, especially with his versatility. I think Earls is the better out and out winger, but I'd prefer to see McFadden in the centre, so I'd probably go for him on the bench over Earls. At least a bench of Madigan and McFadden/Earls/Fitz (if not starting) covers much more options than O Gara did.

opinionatedfan · 26-02-2013 3:01pm

Order of preference:
1. Joe Schmidt
2. Conor O'Shea
3. Dave Rennie

Kayless · 26-02-2013 3:09pm

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

I think that is pretty harsh on Heaslip and Kearney tbh. They might not be on the best of form this year but both are quality players who will, more than likely be Lions in the summer. And if I was to replace Kearney, it wouldn't be with Zebo. What form has he shown in the 15 jersey this year? And it's far too early to strip Heaslip of captaincy, give the guy a chance. And also, Henderson has played his senior rugby at 6, has he not? How has he earned a starting place in the 2nd Row ahead of McCarthy, DOC, Stevenson, POC, Toner or Cullen?

I agree with you on Kearney when he's in form he's the best we have a fb but I just feel Zebo did really well there during the AI's I also think part of our problem is that guys like Heaslip and Kearney know they wont be dropped whereas when you look at England every player is playing each match like there life depended on it as they know Lancaster will bench them for the next match if they under perform, this would also build some much need depth in the squad if say Kearney got injured.

As for Heaslip, they guy really isn't cutting it for me and I'm a Leinster fan :eek:

Henderson could well start playing in the second row for Ulster, he's an unreal talent and only for SOB Id have him at 6

.ak · 26-02-2013 3:12pm

Quint2010 wrote: »

I don't think Kearney is playing that well but he our best FB by a country mile. Joe Schmidt will not stay in Ireland longer than the end of next year. For me-Mike Ruddock should get it. He's done a great job with the '20's plus we would have none of the provincial BS. Failing that-Mallett.

Regarding Ruddock - has he? We had a fantastic group of players last year for the RWC, and we did incredibly well, but I thought a lot of our wins were down to moments of individual skill (JJ, Henderson etc) rather than the team being a well coach, tactical team. Personally I wouldn't be mad on him tbh.

Pudsy33 · 26-02-2013 3:22pm

In terms of coach, I'd like Conor O'Shea or Joe Schmidt. However I believe Joe won't be here much longer, and Connor mightn't want the job yet (who could blame him) I reckon Mallet is a decent shout.

Player wise, I don't subscribe to the theory we need a massive overhaul. Players like Kearney and Heaslip, while being relatively experienced, are still young. There is no need to throw them out, they're still the best players in their positions by a distance.

I do, however, think promising young players need to be introduced in certain positions with older heads phased out. Marshall needs to start, regardless off D'arcys fitness. Cave needs to be tried at 13. Gilroy must retain his place. Jackson and Madigan need gametime in the eventuality that Sexton goes down again.

Dravokivich · 26-02-2013 3:47pm

The OP seems a bit odd to me. A lot of the focus on players picked, yet he selects a team for the AI's with players who are expected to return from injury by then.

Forget about the AI's. If you are to discuss what's a problem now, it'd be based on what you'd do now. It's all well and good saying in 8/9 months time you'd pick different players for the team. Even Kidney can do that, believe it or not.

justsomebloke · 26-02-2013 4:02pm

Kayless wrote: »

I know it’s harsh on guys like D'Arcy, Kearney and to some extent Murray but it’s time Ireland started to pick on form rather than reputation.

Seriously you say people should be picked on form and not on reputation yet you pick zebo at fullback where he has only had a handful of starts so truthfully you post after that just reads as a over reaction especially when it doesn't seem to inanyway look to solve any of the bigger problems like lack of forwards coach, scrum coach and the irfu selection committee so I can't really take your post seriously

Ash.J.Williams · 26-02-2013 4:10pm

Not sure about all this O'Shea talk

jm08 · 26-02-2013 4:52pm

.ak wrote: »

Regarding Ruddock - has he? We had a fantastic group of players last year for the RWC, and we did incredibly well, but I thought a lot of our wins were down to moments of individual skill (JJ, Henderson etc) rather than the team being a well coach, tactical team. Personally I wouldn't be mad on him tbh.

I have to agree. Previous years up to last world cup, Ireland didn't do very well. He keeps making guy captains in key positions that affect the team (Annett who let the pressure get to him, as did Jackson). He persisted with Jackson kicking in the 6Ns even it wasn't going well and JJ was playing 12 and could have been taking the kicks from the start. He was probably lucky that Ulster withdrew Jackson from the world cup because we would never have seen JJ at 10 or Marmion starting a game otherwise.

totallegend · 26-02-2013 4:57pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Not sure about all this O'Shea talk

He has come out publicly today and said he does not want it.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/rugby/oshea-rules-himself-out-of-ireland-job-586199.html

Whether you believe him or not is another question of course, but he's got a good thing going at Quins, he'd be mad to leave it IMO. The Irish job might suit him in a few years but not at the moment.

Teferi · 26-02-2013 5:01pm

The Irish job is where coaches come to die. Why would someone like O'Shea take it now? He'd be mad to.

cp · 26-02-2013 5:04pm

Robbie Deans may well find himself out of a job later this year.. What would people think of him as new coach?

He's a fantastic coach IMHO and from a resources/ playing style POV, the Wallabies are arguably in a very similar place to us.. If anything they're over performing.. The fact that he's not Australian seems to be working against him down there but might actually be an advantage here (no provincial connections, etc)

SebBerkovich · 26-02-2013 5:10pm

Teferi wrote: »

The Irish job is where coaches come to die. Why would someone like O'Shea take it now? He'd be mad to.

Let's hope Warren Gatland's grand slams can't hear you

Timothy Bryce · 26-02-2013 5:12pm

Kayless wrote: »

Consistency, as Irish rugby fans we've heard this word batted about time and time again by the players, management and pundits alike. After the Argentina and Wales game, I for one thought Ireland had finally clicked. Most people would agree that the selection for the Wales game was the best in quite some time and no one, not even his arch critics could fault Kidney. So where did it all go wrong?

Silver Lining

The truth is last Sundays result was the silver lining, a turning point, the kick up the gluteus maximus that Ireland needed.
Of course with a new coach and management team (whoever that may be *couch Joe Schmitt) there’s obviously going to be wholesale change and so it’s got me thinking, what would a new coach do regarding team selection?
A really obvious problem last Sunday was our complete lack of impact off the bench, O'gara for eg. Actually made us weaker, when we could have had Ian madigan coming on instead!

I believe the next coach should be Joe (if he'll have us ) and not because he has won HC’s but because the man knows how to “build” a team with the resources he has, much like Lancaster has done with England.

Below is the squad that beat Wales

IRELAND: R Kearney; C Gilroy, B O'Driscoll, G D'Arcy, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross; M McCarthy, D Ryan; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip (capt).

REPLACEMENTS: S Cronin, D Kilcoyne, D Fitzpatrick, C Henry, D O'Callaghan, E Reddan, R O'Gara, K Earls.

This would be my squad for the AIs

IRELAND: Zebo, C Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, Bowe, Sexton, P Marshall, Healy, Best (capt), Ross, Henderson, D Ryan, SOB, Henry, O'Mahony

REPLACEMENTS: Strauss, Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick (is there anyone else?) Heaslip, McCarthy, Murray, Madigan (or Jackson), Fitzgerald

I know it’s harsh on guys like D'Arcy, Kearney and to some extent Murray but it’s time Ireland started to pick on form rather than reputation. A backline consisting of 5 Ulster players would bring cohesion to the squad, players like Kearney and Heaslip should have to play their way into the squad, this way we can guarantee that:

A. Players want to play
B. Competition for places

This is just a rough idea of what the next coach could go for, obviously by the time the Ai’s and the next 6 nations starts there will be more new blood.

If you were the new coach who would you choose? Who would you drop? Would you name a new caption?

Firstly, the kick up the @rse should have been the selection of the touring party to NZ and the subsequent 60-0 drubbing.

Secondly, I don't think the blame falls on the players in the black & white way you suggest. The truth of the matter is (and has been said ad nauseum on here for 12+ months) that young players should have been blooded a long time ago, in positions where the starting player is not in line for the WC '15. Madigan, Marshall(s), Henderson, Stevenson, Cave, Jackson etc etc. We were playing the wrong players, in the wrong positions (Earls at centre, the idea of JS @ 12 etc), and the coach kept his head in the sand in regard to aging players (eg. ROG).

Thirdly, Kidney tried to mix things up by making Heaslip captain, handled it terribly and it backfired. I made comments about Heaslip on here yesterday which I've had time to reflect on, and I think he was put in an awkward position with BOD still being in the dressing room, and I feel for him somewhat. I think this is a bigger elephant in the room for the players, than anything else.

Fourthly, we've been decimated by injuries and lost a lot of *key* leaders in the team. A young lad coming into the squad is more likely to raise his game when surrounded by the likes of POC/Fez etc. I think this may have an effect on the rebuilding effort which needs to take place.

Hard to get consistency when faced with all of the above, which the coach handled terribly IMO.

New coach for me: McKenzie, Jake White or maybe even Dingo if he gets axed by Oz.

thomond2006 · 26-02-2013 5:15pm

Teferi wrote: »

The Irish job is where coaches come to die. Why would someone like O'Shea take it now? He'd be mad to.

This

He has a cosy job at Quins for another couple of years, they're a young side with plenty of indigenous talent so they're not going to decline for a while.

International coaches whose recent tenures ended badly don't seem to get another top level role quickly. Look at Martin Johnson, Eddie O'Sullivan, Marc Lievremont, Peter de Villiers...

Thud · 26-02-2013 5:25pm

Any chance Graham Henry would take the job? Only had a 1yr contract in Argentina

CatFromHue · 26-02-2013 5:49pm

Thud wrote: »

Any chance Graham Henry would take the job? Only had a 1yr contract in Argentina

I couldn't see it.

He's 66 now and I'd say is enjoying his life in NZ after winning the RWC. He's assistant to Kirwan at the Auckland Blues now, I think, and wants to help out with Argentina during the 4 Nations down there.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/8344557/Argentina-must-adopt-professionalism-Henry

Hagz · 26-02-2013 5:59pm

jm08 wrote: »

I have to agree. Previous years up to last world cup, Ireland didn't do very well. He keeps making guy captains in key positions that affect the team (Annett who let the pressure get to him, as did Jackson). He persisted with Jackson kicking in the 6Ns even it wasn't going well and JJ was playing 12 and could have been taking the kicks from the start. He was probably lucky that Ulster withdrew Jackson from the world cup because we would never have seen JJ at 10 or Marmion starting a game otherwise.

He didn't do well in his first year, but in fairness to him, he was thrown in the deep end with his JWC pool. England and South Africa. And in the 6N, he lost to France and England but we are always underdogs going into those games.

The captain has to be a player who has previously played at the level, McGrath this year, Jackson last year and Annett the year before that. In 2011 Annett was really the only viable option out of the follow ons. I agree that Jackson wasn't the right decision though, however if it wasn't Jackson it would've had to have been another follow on and the options weren't that much better. Jackson had good exposure to senior level rugby as well.

Not sure how Jackson being withdrawn had anything to do with Marmion starting..?

I'd be happy to see Ruddock given the same opportunity as Lancaster i.e. interim to see how he gets on. His second year with the u20s was outstanding. One game away from a Grand Slam, a win over France, England and South Africa in the JWC. Even in his third year now, he's been dealt a shoddy hand with the injuries and unavailability of key players yet he's managed to get a win over England and lost to Scotland+Wales by the thinnest of margins.
He's also doing very well with Lansdowne this season. Like I said, I'm not sure I'd like him to be given the job straight up, but I wouldn't mind seeing how he goes.

26-02-2013 6:47pm

I would not like O'Shea.

We need a butcher. Some bastard like Cheika would be great.

(not him though. Someone with zero preconceptions about any of the people he'd be working with. Someone who'd kick up a fuss if something wasn't done right etc. i.e not a "yes" man)

CatFromHue · 26-02-2013 6:50pm

But but but EOS was dictator who'd shout and get angry when he didn't get his way :pac::pac:

vkid · 26-02-2013 6:51pm

Someone from completely outside the current setups (Irish or Provincial) is whats required imo.

opinionatedfan · 26-02-2013 6:51pm

Dave Rennie. no ties and a great coach.

duckysauce · 26-02-2013 7:31pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

This

He has a cosy job at Quins for another couple of years, they're a young side with plenty of indigenous talent so they're not going to decline for a while.

International coaches whose recent tenures ended badly don't seem to get another top level role quickly. Look at Martin Johnson, Eddie O'Sullivan, Marc Lievremont, Peter de Villiers...

The sanity and coaching of some of those coaches is questionable , Eddie got a job with the Eagles pretty quickly not quite top level but still an exellent role soon after the Irish post finished.

mfceiling · 26-02-2013 7:37pm

I can almost guarantee that the next irish coach will be someone irish and/or involved with irish rugby.

There is no way the blazers will look outside for a coach........i would nearly bank the house on this.

It wouldn't surprise me if brian mclaughlin, ruddock or even elwood got the offer.....seriously there isn't a snowballs chance of schmidt or someone of that level being offered the job. The blazers are too conservative and would baulk at the thought of an "outsider" getting the job. Mark my words...

CatFromHue · 26-02-2013 7:43pm

mfceiling wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that the next irish coach will be someone irish and/or involved with irish rugby.

I'm not so sure, the spec for the Connacht job was fairly detailed and they'd no problem going outside Ireland to fill it.

.ak · 26-02-2013 7:44pm

mfceiling wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that the next irish coach will be someone irish and/or involved with irish rugby.

There is no way the blazers will look outside for a coach........i would nearly bank the house on this.

It wouldn't surprise me if brian mclaughlin, ruddock or even elwood got the offer.....seriously there isn't a snowballs chance of schmidt or someone of that level being offered the job. The blazers are too conservative and would baulk at the thought of an "outsider" getting the job. Mark my words...

You're probably dead right, which is depressing really.

Grimebox · 26-02-2013 8:17pm

Well O'Shea has ruled himself out

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2013/0226/1224330549515.html

Ireland post Mortem/new coach

Comments