Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

channelsurfer2 · 25-02-2013 06:08PM

Its a lot better than what was prposed for admin staff anyway. Thr etails about increments leave the cpsu with little to fight for and thry will find it hard to lead their members to strike. A poor deal for nurses or frontline as they loose their hard fought reduction from 39 hours a few years ago

RGS · 25-02-2013 06:23PM

The frontline staff are the losers in this proposal. Example nurse on a gross salary of €35K loses approx 8% taking into account the loss of the twilight payment, changes to overtime and sunday rates whereas admin staff on €60K working mon to fri lose nothing.

Thats a fair and equitable deal.!!!!

Cant see this proposal being accepted by the frontline staff.

signostic · 25-02-2013 06:31PM

RGS wrote: »

Thats a fair and equitable deal.!!!!

Cant see this proposal being accepted by the frontline staff.

`
Would I be right in thinking thet the 9-5èrs would have the numbers to carry a vote in favour leaving the frontliners stranded?

RGS · 25-02-2013 06:37PM

signostic wrote: »

`
Would I be right in thinking thet the 9-5èrs would have the numbers to carry a vote in favour leaving the frontliners stranded?

Thats a possibility, but SIPTU have a number of staff who work shifts in the HSE including porters who will also lose out.
Teachers, doctors are likely to reject the proposal. The Higher pay may also reject the proposal.

Wanderer2010 · 25-02-2013 06:47PM

Are there really that many admin staff in the public sector on 60k plus? Seems a huge amount of money for the job they do, considering the nurses and guards on the frontline are on a lot less than this. I know they get increments etc but just curious, are we talking about government departments (Finance etc) that have admin staff on such a salary? Or is this more towards staff who have been in admin for 10 or more years. Im just trying to understand what admin job deserves MORE money that a frontline civil servant

ardmacha · 25-02-2013 06:53PM

Are there really that many admin staff in the public sector on 60k plus?

Define admin staff? Is the tax accountant in the Revenue Commissioners who audits dodgy businesses "admin staff" or "frontline"?

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 07:07PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Are there really that many admin staff in the public sector on 60k plus? Seems a huge amount of money for the job they do, considering the nurses and guards on the frontline are on a lot less than this. I know they get increments etc but just curious, are we talking about government departments (Finance etc) that have admin staff on such a salary? Or is this more towards staff who have been in admin for 10 or more years. Im just trying to understand what admin job deserves MORE money that a frontline civil servant

What do you think they do? or don't do, as the case may be?

Senior managers run the breadth of both public and private sector organisations. While there is the old saying of "too many chiefs, not enough indians" (I don't know, in real numbers, if the there are too many chiefs in the public sector today, but that's a separate issue), you do need some chiefs. Some (a number of people) have to be in charge, minding the strategic direction of an organisation (or division within an organisation), some people have to be responsible/accountable for decision making, planning, organising, managing staff, budgets, resources, etc...

RGS · 25-02-2013 07:09PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Are there really that many admin staff in the public sector on 60k plus? Seems a huge amount of money for the job they do, considering the nurses and guards on the frontline are on a lot less than this. I know they get increments etc but just curious, are we talking about government departments (Finance etc) that have admin staff on such a salary? Or is this more towards staff who have been in admin for 10 or more years. Im just trying to understand what admin job deserves MORE money that a frontline civil servant

The department of argiculture has 163 staff earning in excess of €60K as per dail question in september 2011.

BaronVon · 25-02-2013 07:44PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Some (a number of people) have to be in charge, minding the strategic direction of an organisation (or division within an organisation), some people have to be responsible/accountable for decision making, planning, organising, managing staff, budgets, resources, etc...

For me, one of the biggest problems in the PS is not enough accountability in management........

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 07:55PM

infacteh wrote: »

For me, one of the biggest problems in the PS is not enough accountability in management........

That's a performance management issue that needs to be fixed.

Boombastic · 25-02-2013 08:09PM

Doesn't seem my post about

No more allowance for yard duty etc

was too far off the mark for teachers and yet it was not seen as a' half realistic expectation' at the time

mrowan · 25-02-2013 08:26PM

Is there any clarification on the pay cuts, Is it 5.5% only on earnings over €65,000 or 5.5% on all earnings?

According to the impact website it is on only on earnings over €65,000 whereas as on the Irish times site it is on all earnings?

http://www.impact.ie/Croke-Park-Agreement/Labour-Relations-Commission-proposals-on-an-extension-to-the-Croke-Park-agreement-.htm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0225/breaking39.html

NapoleonInRags · 25-02-2013 08:41PM

mrowan wrote: »

Is there any clarification on the pay cuts, Is it 5.5% only on earnings over €65,000 or 5.5% on all earnings?

According to the impact website it is on only on earnings over €65,000 whereas as on the Irish times site it is on all earnings?

http://www.impact.ie/Croke-Park-Agreement/Labour-Relations-Commission-proposals-on-an-extension-to-the-Croke-Park-agreement-.htm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0225/breaking39.html

It's 5.5% on all earnings up to 80k for those on salaries of 65-80k.

In my case, I will be cancelling health insurance for myself, my wife and three kids as I have absolutely no other way of absorbing the hit.

So be it - but when you are covering a higher grade vacancy without additional pay plus your own workload it kind of acts as a major demotivator.

Working week increased to 37 hours? Give me a break, I already work 45-50.

woodoo · 25-02-2013 08:49PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Lower Paid staff may well feel lucky to escape an actual cut in pay (may see a slight increase with change in pension levy??

They have had an effective paycut. They have to work an extra 2 hours per week which equates to a 6% hourly paycut.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 08:57PM

woodoo wrote: »

They have had an effective paycut. They have to work an extra 2 hours per week which equates to a 6% hourly paycut.

Their take home pay remains more or less the same with some tweaks, they have nothing to complain about considering. Makes you wonder why the smaller civil service union walked out of talks

tayto lover · 25-02-2013 09:01PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Their take home pay remains more or less the same with some tweaks, they have nothing to complain about considering. Makes you wonder why the smaller civil service union walked out of talks

They obviously know a con job when they see it.
Two extra hours work for nothing ??
The first hour of overtime for nothing too after having their hourly rate reduced.

The nurses and the garda got the brunt of the cuts. Very unfair for them.

mrowan · 25-02-2013 09:01PM

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

It's 5.5% on all earnings up to 80k for those on salaries of 65-80k.

In my case, I will be cancelling health insurance for myself, my wife and three kids as I have absolutely no other way of absorbing the hit.

So be it - but when you are covering a higher grade vacancy without additional pay plus your own workload it kind of acts as a major demotivator.

Working week increased to 37 hours? Give me a break, I already work 45-50.

That seems very unfair, So if you earn €64,999 your pay remains the same, however if you earn €1 more, your pay is reduced by €3575 per annum! that sounds very bizzare to be honest? Are you sure about that? As I said the impact website says it is only on earnings over €65,000?

Lumbo · 25-02-2013 09:04PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Makes you wonder why the smaller civil service union walked out of talks

The CPSU are a bit militant and are still expecting a refund from CP1 :rolleyes:
Their reps probably knew there was no way that their members would agree to any negotiation that seen them lose any benefits.

NapoleonInRags · 25-02-2013 09:08PM

mrowan wrote: »

That seems very unfair, So if you earn €64,999 your pay remains the same, however if you earn €1 more, your pay is reduced by €3575 per annum! that sounds very bizzare to be honest? Are you sure about that? As I said the impact website says it is only on earnings over €65,000?

Trust me that's exactly it. Fairness doesn't come into it I'm afraid and there are anomalies such as you point out all over this agreement.

woodoo · 25-02-2013 09:09PM

RGS wrote: »

The frontline staff are the losers in this proposal. Example nurse on a gross salary of €35K loses approx 8% taking into account the loss of the twilight payment, changes to overtime and sunday rates whereas admin staff on €60K working mon to fri lose nothing.

Thats a fair and equitable deal.!!!!

Cant see this proposal being accepted by the frontline staff.

But overtime should not be considered the norm. I never even get offered overtime.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 09:10PM

tayto lover wrote: »

They obviously know a con job when they see it.
Two extra hours work for nothing ??
The first hour of overtime for nothing too after having their hourly rate reduced.

The nurses and the garda got the brunt of the cuts. Very unfair for them.

senior managers are expected to work overtime without any extra pay - as far as I know that has always been the case.

A 37hr week is a minimal requirement in fairness. At least they have a secure income and continue as they did last week in terms of wage preservation.

They got off very lightly. I am not saying it's right or wrong, but realistically they have very little to be angry about

Gumbo · 25-02-2013 09:14PM

I also feel bad for somebody under the 35k on their max increment. They will lose an increment or 6 days holidays. I think that's a bit unfair.

tayto lover · 25-02-2013 09:15PM

Uriel. wrote: »

senior managers are expected to work overtime without any extra pay - as far as I know that has always been the case.

A 37hr week is a minimal requirement in fairness. At least they have a secure income and continue as they did last week in terms of wage preservation.

They got off very lightly. I am not saying it's right or wrong, but realistically they have very little to be angry about

The Frontline workers also lost some of their allowances and had others cut.
Why were they treated worse than the rest of the Public Sector?

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 09:15PM

woodoo wrote: »

But overtime should not be considered the norm. I never even get offered overtime.

Tbh, I can see where the frontline staff are coming from. They got a raw deal in comparison to other sectors. Isn't a nurses basic pay similar to that of Clerical Officer in the Civil service?? about a €5,000 difference at the top end?

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 09:17PM

kceire wrote: »

I also feel bad for somebody under the 35k on their max increment. They will lose an increment or 6 days holidays. I think that's a bit unfair.

Do they get the holidays back or the money back after 3 years? I couldn't figure that out, whether it's a temp measure like the 3 month increment freeze or if it was a permanent cut?

Gumbo · 25-02-2013 09:20PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Do they get the holidays back or the money back after 3 years? I couldn't figure that out, whether it's a temp measure like the 3 month increment freeze or if it was a permanent cut?

To be honest, I don't know. I guess we will find out in the next few days. I was sitting with a guy in his 50,s today. Does a stand out job, always makes the effect and supports us no problem. (I am technical staff), he is at the max grade for his position and hasn't had an increment in 10 years.

6 days is a lot to lose, and the increment is not a lot of money as such, but he is afraid if he drops the increment his pension will be fecked then too!

woodoo · 25-02-2013 09:21PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Their take home pay remains more or less the same with some tweaks, they have nothing to complain about considering. Makes you wonder why the smaller civil service union walked out of talks

It all seems a little too choreographed for me. Howlin gets his weekend off. Meanwhile all the shenanigans go on over the weekend culminating in a walkout by the same 4 unions that walked out during the 2010 talks. Plenty of doom and gloom and scaring the workers. Then in swans Howlin on Monday morning and a deal is wrapped up by morning tea.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 09:22PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The Frontline workers also lost some of their allowances and had others cut.
Why were they treated worse than the rest of the Public Sector?

Honestly, I don't know.

I suspect there's a mix of things going on. With a continuing recruitment embargo I reckon existing staff will be doing more work including overtime. The Gov probably see that happening more and more as times goes on so are trying to reduce the overall cost as overtime becomes the tool to handle demand rather than new staff.

Gumbo · 25-02-2013 09:23PM

woodoo wrote: »

It all seems a little too choreographed for me. Howlin gets his weekend off. Meanwhile all the shenanigans go on over the weekend culminating in a walkout by the same 4 unions that walked out during the 2010 talks. Plenty of doom and gloom and scaring the workers. Then in swans Howlin on Monday morning and a deal is wrapped up by morning tea.

He wouldn't hand over the bourbon creams until the deal was done. No wonder they rushed it

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 09:24PM

kceire wrote: »

To be honest, I don't know. I guess we will find out in the next few days. I was sitting with a guy in his 50,s today. Does a stand out job, always makes the effect and supports us no problem. (I am technical staff), he is at the max grade for his position and hasn't had an increment in 10 years.

6 days is a lot to lose, and the increment is not a lot of money as such, but he is afraid if he drops the increment his pension will be fecked then too!

his pension will be, unless the increment is reinstated before he retires.

it's six days over three years? 6 in one year would be a bit much.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Comments