Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Mountjoy Mugger · 25-02-2013 03:40PM

If you read the publication by the LRC, nothing is agreed to yet.

What is proposed is
 3 year agreement to run from 1 July 2013 to end June 2016

 Over the course of the Agreement, the overall savings target set by Government will be achieved.

 An increase in working hours across the public service; delivering a long-term, sustainable and unprecedented increase in productivity as well as a significant reduction in overtime and agency costs. Those currently working under 35 hours will in future work a minimum of 37 hours. Those working between 35 and under 39 hours will in future work 39 hours. Additional hours will also facilitate reductions in public service numbers.

 Remaining overtime costs will be paid at a reduced rate – Time and half at the first point of the scale for those on less than €35k. Time and a quarter at the individual’s scale point for those over €35k. Those public servants currently on 39 hours will provide an unpaid hour’s overtime.

 Elimination of Twilight payments and reduced rate of time and three quarters for Sunday pay.

 Increment freeze of varying lengths: A 3 year freeze for those over €65k, two 3-month freezes (i.e. two 15 month increments) for those between €35k and €65k and a single 3 month freeze for those under €35k (i.e. a 15-month rather than 12 month increment). Balancing measures for those already at the max. of their scales have also been agreed, either a reduction in annual leave of a total of 6 days over the Agreement or a cash deduction from salary of an equivalent amount or the value of half of the last increment, whichever is the lesser.

 Separately, the Government will reduce the pay of those over €65k progressively as follows:
o 5.5% on the first €80,000 of salary and allowances
o 8% between €80,000 and €150,000
o 9% between €150,000 and €185,000
o 10% above €185,000

In other words, everyone gets hit.

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 03:41PM

Riskymove wrote: »

the latest I have heard is that €65k is the minum you can be reduced to in order to avoid this :rolleyes:

letsbet wrote: »

]

Oh right. That removes some of the anomalous nature of the change but changing someone who's on €68,500 to €65,000 and leaving someone else on 65000 seems a bit odd all the same (although not as bad as the earlier example).

By extension then same will have to be true for the higher payscales (e.g. cut to 80k, 150k etc).

Chris_5339762 · 25-02-2013 03:42PM

antoobrien wrote: »

There are PS workers earning less than 20k?

I'd imagine this is the fraction of everyones wages between 15k and 20k.

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:46PM

antoobrien wrote: »

By extension then same will have to be true for the higher payscales (e.g. cut to 80k, 150k etc).

no not at all

everyone between 65-80 would have taken a cut so the same situation does not arise.

It will be progressive though, so someone on 100k will get 5.5% off up to 80k and then 8% off from 80k to 100k

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:47PM

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'd imagine this is the fraction of everyones wages between 15k and 20k.

its likely to be part-time workers

letsbet · 25-02-2013 03:50PM

antoobrien wrote: »

By extension then same will have to be true for the higher payscales (e.g. cut to 80k, 150k etc).

Indeed. However, the impact imo is less pronouced at the higher levels as the incremental hit is less as you only get a one percentage point increase in the hit as you move into the really high brackets and 2.5 percentage points when you go past 80,000, compared to a 5.5 percetange-point difference when you go over 65,000. If for example, someone who earns 160k has their salary cut to 150k, at least from the point of comparison and fariness someone on 149k would have their salary cut by a similar amount.

creedp · 25-02-2013 03:51PM

letsbet wrote: »

Do you mean apart from the pay changes? In the last deal lecturers' hours increased and that will probably happen again, eventhough the people are close to breaking point (personal experience).

With regards to the cuts, you would imagine that they would be done on amounts over certain thresholds rather than on total amounts. If it's on the total amount, which is what's indicated above someone earning €65,000 today will earn €61,425 in future and someone earning €64,000 today will continue to do so. How can that be fair or reasonable! If true, then you'd be better off it today you are earning €61,500 than €65,000. From reports coming out today it seems that this crazy situation will happen.

At least now we know what the Government/Unions consider to be the true rate for a low paid public sector worker, i.e. €65k. However once the pay cuts are introduced will the new low pay rate be €64,999 or €61,425. Welcome to the madness of CP2

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 03:52PM

Riskymove wrote: »

no not at all

everyone between 65-80 would have taken a cut so the same situation does not arise.

It will be progressive though, so someone on 100k will get 5.5% off up to 80k and then 8% off from 80k to 100k

It'd have to be true for at least the 80k bracket as someone on 80k getting an 8% cut would have their salary reduced to 76,600 whereas somebody on 79,999k would only be cut to 75,599 (I know it's an edge case, but what do you expect I work in software - my life is looking at edge cases).

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:55PM

antoobrien wrote: »

It'd have to be true for at least the 80k bracket as someone on 80k getting an 8% cut would have thier salary reduced to 76,600 whereas somebody on 76k would only be cut to 74,655.

8% only on the element over €80k and 5.5% on 65-80k

so someone on 100k gets reduced 5.5% of 80000 = 4400
and 8% of 20000 = 1600

= 6,000 total

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:56PM

creedp wrote: »

At least now we know what the Government/Unions consider to be the true rate for a low paid public sector worker, i.e. €65k. However once the pay cuts are introduced will the new low pay rate be €64,999 or €61,425. Welcome to the madness of CP2

actually, if you look at detail its more like

<35k low paid
35-65k medium paid
>65k higher paid

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 04:02PM

Riskymove wrote: »

8% only on the element over €80k and 5.5% on 65-80k

That's not what the earlier articles said, though it seems to be coming out as a detail now.

Just to clarify what was said earlier (which has caused the confusion was)

An 8 per cent cut for staff earning over €80,000
A 9 per cent cut for staff earning over €150,000
A 10 per cent cut for staff earning over €185,000.

As you can see it doesn't say on the portion over 80k.

sean200 · 25-02-2013 04:06PM

jank wrote: »

Looks like a good deal for the unions. Government caved in again to them.

have to agree the unions won it hands down but labour played a good game if it has got the 1 billion in savings
I would have a feeling FG would like to have seen no agreement

sean200 · 25-02-2013 04:07PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

In other words, the walk-outs worked.

The walkout were staged

sean200 · 25-02-2013 04:13PM

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

If you read the publication by the LRC, nothing is agreed to yet.

What is proposed is
 3 year agreement to run from 1 July 2013 to end June 2016

 Over the course of the Agreement, the overall savings target set by Government will be achieved.

 An increase in working hours across the public service; delivering a long-term, sustainable and unprecedented increase in productivity as well as a significant reduction in overtime and agency costs. Those currently working under 35 hours will in future work a minimum of 37 hours. Those working between 35 and under 39 hours will in future work 39 hours. Additional hours will also facilitate reductions in public service numbers.

 Remaining overtime costs will be paid at a reduced rate – Time and half at the first point of the scale for those on less than €35k. Time and a quarter at the individual’s scale point for those over €35k. Those public servants currently on 39 hours will provide an unpaid hour’s overtime.

 Elimination of Twilight payments and reduced rate of time and three quarters for Sunday pay.

 Increment freeze of varying lengths: A 3 year freeze for those over €65k, two 3-month freezes (i.e. two 15 month increments) for those between €35k and €65k and a single 3 month freeze for those under €35k (i.e. a 15-month rather than 12 month increment). Balancing measures for those already at the max. of their scales have also been agreed, either a reduction in annual leave of a total of 6 days over the Agreement or a cash deduction from salary of an equivalent amount or the value of half of the last increment, whichever is the lesser.

 Separately, the Government will reduce the pay of those over €65k progressively as follows:
o 5.5% on the first €80,000 of salary and allowances
o 8% between €80,000 and €150,000
o 9% between €150,000 and €185,000
o 10% above €185,000

In other words, everyone gets hit.

I would not call it a hit but watch the private sector now as they roll this out The state should now make the rich in the private sector pay more and bring in a 3rd rate of tax for anybody over 75k

creedp · 25-02-2013 04:15PM

Riskymove wrote: »

actually, if you look at detail its more like

<35k low paid
35-65k medium paid
>65k higher paid

The point I was making I suppose is if you are earning €64,999 for a 9 -5 day your pay isn't cut. Your increments may be frozen for a short while but you won't have a pay cut as such. So you've done pretty good out of todays agreement. This differantial will be acerabated further when some just under €65k people get an increment in 15 months while the guy on €65k is hit for 5.5% now won't get one for 3 years. If I was on this threshold I'd be pretty angry right now! I can't understand why there wasn't a token 1% cut for those between €50k and €65k - it might make it slightly more palatable. I wonder how many of that particular threshold will consider stopping those subs!

SB2013 · 25-02-2013 04:20PM

People seem to be having an issue with understanding how an increment freeze will help. It's not too difficult. It's basically a six month pay freeze which will lower the annual pay bill from what it would originally have been

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 04:24PM

SB2013 wrote: »

People seem to be having an issue with understanding how an increment freeze will help. It's not too difficult. It's basically a six month pay freeze which will lower the annual pay bill from what it would originally have been

yes, but only by a very slight amount

an increment due in january means you save 3 months of the increased amount - probably a couple of hundred euro - and only a once off saving not every year

SB2013 · 25-02-2013 04:28PM

Riskymove wrote: »

yes, but only by a very slight amount

an increment due in january means you save 3 months of the increased amount - probably a couple of hundred euro - and only a once off saving not every year

It will be every year. Because the benefit will accumulate from the first year onwards in perpetuity. So the second year will be paying the lower increments from the year before and so will also have a lower pay bill than it would have originally.

frank reynolds · 25-02-2013 04:36PM

i wish they would STOP focusing on cutting lower paid workers in the public service. many are on WAY less than even 30K per year, and the higher earners are virtually untouched in most cuts so far. it's an absolute sham. what they need to do is leave low earners as they are and make some cuts to people on between 50-60K per year and then anything above that should be cut more severley. keep it fair!

people who dont understand the reality of the salaries of public servants seem to think that we're all coming in for 3 hours work a day and being paid about 80,000 to do it. the reality is that MOST people in the PS are finding it EXTREMELY difficult to maintain any sort of life for themselves. i have no children, or reliant people, and i find it tough. i can only imagine how a single parent might cope. Horse-meat hand-outs and subsidies from parents/ loan sharks / selling drugs on the side? who knows. it's an awful set-up

this country is gone to sh!te, and this so called "deal" is just another proof of the government trying to stamp on the poor to keep themselves in the money.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 04:39PM

frank reynolds wrote: »

i wish they would STOP focusing on cutting lower paid workers in the public service. many are on WAY less than even 30K per year, and the higher earners are virtually untouched in most cuts so far. it's an absolute sham. what they need to do is leave low earners as they are and make some cuts to people on between 50-60K per year and then anything above that should be cut more severley. keep it fair!

people who dont understand the reality of the salaries of public servants seem to think that we're all coming in for 3 hours work a day and being paid about 80,000 to do it. the reality is that MOST people in the PS are finding it EXTREMELY difficult to maintain any sort of life for themselves. i have no children, or reliant people, and i find it tough. i can only imagine how a single parent might cope. Horse-meat hand-outs and subsidies from parents/ loan sharks / selling drugs on the side? who knows. it's an awful set-up

this country is gone to sh!te, and this so called "deal" is just another proof of the government trying to stamp on the poor to keep themselves in the money.

You've missed the announcement of the deal today and the provisions released thus far......right?

Larbre34 · 25-02-2013 04:39PM

Quite a bit of serious detail being left to chance by the parties concerned:

Its already been mentioned in recent weeks, but nobody has a mandate to introduce a new agreement 5/6 months before Croke Park 1 expires. It should be sufficient for the Troika that projected savings from the new agreement are flagged to commence in Jan 14, then the agreement can run till end 2016.

There are fleeting mentions of changes to flexi time arrangments, work sharing patterns and grade restructuring. These could potentially adversely affect many workers in the PS much more than a shave of leave or increment here or there. The hours of attendance people are used to very much dictate their work life balance and costs of child care, if these are proposed to be changed the information should be immediately be highlighted.

frank reynolds · 25-02-2013 04:45PM

Uriel. wrote: »

You've missed the announcement of the deal today and the provisions released thus far......right?

i havent no, i read them in detail throughout the course of the day.

my point is, because there are people involved on a high pay scale in the talks, the vote will be NO. the draft will get changed to suit the higher paid people (who are in on the talks and drafting the document) and they will vote YES on it, even if it means that people who are already struggling will suffer more - so they dont have to give up their 4th holiday per year, or their new 131 car or whatever it is that they seem to enjoy on their ridiculous salaries.

it's not a fair proposal for ANYONE at the moment, especially proposing the addition of hours to the working week. for what? this was not thought out properly at ALL. it's basically another pay cut disguised as something else.

hopefully, the deal will be voted against, the government will legislate for pay cuts and then the PS is allowed to strike again, as the current croke park deal will have been breached.

that will lead to widespread chaos in public services, as well as having to draft up a REALISTIC plan that doesnt make the poor suffer even more.

im just ranting a bit i know, but i'm absolutely fed up of the sh!t out of this countries leaders and the distain that is held for PS workers - high OR low paid.

Chris_5339762 · 25-02-2013 04:46PM

I would guess that those 'fleeting mentions' are just that, and they wont come to fruition in any sense other than todays announcement.

Godge · 25-02-2013 04:51PM

creedp wrote: »

The point I was making I suppose is if you are earning €64,999 for a 9 -5 day your pay isn't cut. Your increments may be frozen for a short while but you won't have a pay cut as such. So you've done pretty good out of todays agreement. This differantial will be acerabated further when some just under €65k people get an increment in 15 months while the guy on €65k is hit for 5.5% now won't get one for 3 years. If I was on this threshold I'd be pretty angry right now! I can't understand why there wasn't a token 1% cut for those between €50k and €65k - it might make it slightly more palatable. I wonder how many of that particular threshold will consider stopping those subs!

This is an interesting analysis. What makes it more interesting is when you look at the administrative scales represented by IMPACT - the Grades III to VII across the health, local authority and education sectors - a Grade VII earns €61k at the top, just below the cut-off for a pay cut. Makes you wonder how they came up with the threshold.

frank reynolds · 25-02-2013 04:55PM

Godge wrote: »

This is an interesting analysis. What makes it more interesting is when you look at the administrative scales represented by IMPACT - the Grades III to VII across the health, local authority and education sectors - a Grade VII earns €61k at the top, just below the cut-off for a pay cut. Makes you wonder how they came up with the threshold.

hopefully you're right and they HAVE made it this way to protect its vulnerable low paid staff.

lets just see what happens. i guarantee that the lower paid will be worse off when it does pass.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 04:57PM

frank reynolds wrote: »

i havent no, i read them in detail throughout the course of the day.

my point is, because there are people involved on a high pay scale in the talks, the vote will be NO. the draft will get changed to suit the higher paid people (who are in on the talks and drafting the document) and they will vote YES on it, even if it means that people who are already struggling will suffer more - so they dont have to give up their 4th holiday per year, or their new 131 car or whatever it is that they seem to enjoy on their ridiculous salaries.

it's not a fair proposal for ANYONE at the moment, especially proposing the addition of hours to the working week. for what? this was not thought out properly at ALL. it's basically another pay cut disguised as something else.

hopefully, the deal will be voted against, the government will legislate for pay cuts and then the PS is allowed to strike again, as the current croke park deal will have been breached.

that will lead to widespread chaos in public services, as well as having to draft up a REALISTIC plan that doesnt make the poor suffer even more.

im just ranting a bit i know, but i'm absolutely fed up of the sh!t out of this countries leaders and the distain that is held for PS workers - high OR low paid.

But how are the poor suffering more with regard to the deal on the table today? I don't get where you are coming from this one. The lower paid are getting off relatively lightly, particularly if they are not in frontline service jobs. The deal won't tinkered with (in advance of the ballot) save for clarifications and tidy ups. Any tinkering is not, say for example going to reduce the 10% cut to the highest paid, and introduce a 2% cut for the lowest paid, or anything of that nature.

Tombo2001 · 25-02-2013 05:32PM

Uriel. wrote: »

But how are the poor suffering more with regard to the deal on the table today? I don't get where you are coming from this one. The lower paid are getting off relatively lightly, particularly if they are not in frontline service jobs. The deal won't tinkered with (in advance of the ballot) save for clarifications and tidy ups. Any tinkering is not, say for example going to reduce the 10% cut to the highest paid, and introduce a 2% cut for the lowest paid, or anything of that nature.

Its just whingeing for the sake of it.

Relatively speaking its a fantastic deal for the lower paid, but everyone likes to participate in the whingeing.

rogieop · 25-02-2013 05:34PM

they spoke on the radio today about the "ending of the two tiered system" can anyone tell me if this means that anyone who joined the public sector since 2011 will be brought up to existing rates of pay?

Gumbo · 25-02-2013 05:52PM

rogieop wrote: »

they spoke on the radio today about the "ending of the two tiered system" can anyone tell me if this means that anyone who joined the public sector since 2011 will be brought up to existing rates of pay?

I heard that in the case of teachers that joined, they'd get a slight increase upwards to take account of the loss of some allowance etc

tayto lover · 25-02-2013 05:53PM

Not too bad a deal for any PS worker on a 9 to 5 day but the Frontline people have been hit badly again.
They were right to leave the talks and this has been borne out.
They should immediately go on a work to rule or strike for a few weeks.
The bit about them "not coming back" is laughable too as they are already back before CP 1 has ended. They WILL be back again too.

Stand up for yourselves FFS.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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