Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 01:10PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Yeah I'm scratching my head on this one. Perhaps they intend to make the unions who walked out pay the balance

have just heard some more details - apparantly full document will be available over next day or two

the paycut expected to be aorund €200m of the billion

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 01:13PM

infacteh wrote: »

Exactly, Govt using a blunt instrument to make savings across a huge, diverse workforce of 300k.

There is no equity in what's being proposed.

while I did not agree with across the board measures, at least last time everyone recieved some kind of cut, its certainly clear that a minority of the PS will be contributing a sizeable amount of the cuts

SB2013 · 25-02-2013 01:15PM

Journal reports the deal a reduction in Sunday and Overtime allowance and a salary based increment freeze. Cuts of 5.5% plus for those earning over 65K.

Seems reasonable to me. Not understanding the anger in the comments section.

touts · 25-02-2013 01:19PM

No way there is a billion in savings in this proposal. I think we now know what happened to the short term savings from doubling the Anglo debt and pushing it out 20 years. The government stragegy seems to be to thread water for 20 years and hope an asteroid hits between now and then.

25-02-2013 01:26PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-pay-deal-reached-croke-park-809169-Feb2013/

The proposals include pay cuts for public workers on salaries above €65,000 a year – beginning at 5.5 per cent, rising to 8 per cent for staff over €80,000; 9 per cent for staff over €150,000; and 10 per cent over €185,000 a year.
Increments for public workers would also be frozen or deferred for workers, with the scale of the freeze again dependant on salary. Increments would be frozen for three months for workers below €35,000 a year, with two three-month freezes for those between €35,000 and €65,000. Those on salaries above €65,000 would see a three-year freeze on their increments.
Working hours would also be extended: those working under 35 hours per week would see their working week extended to 37 hours, while those working between 35 and 39 hours per week will have their week extended to 39 hours. These additional hours would help to cover gaps created by the departure of some workers.
The arrangement would see Sunday premiums cut from double-time to time-and-three-quarters, while Saturday payments will remain.
Overtime payments would been reduced, to time-and-a-half for those on less than €35,000, and time-and-a-quarter for those above that amount.
Special rates for ‘twilight‘ hours – where healthcare staff are paid at time-and-one-sixth for working between 6pm and 8pm, or to the end of their rostered shift – will be scrapped.
In the education sector, supervision and substitution payments will be eliminated – though sources in teachers’ unions said new entrants to the sector since 2011, who have taken proportionally larger pay cuts than older peers, would be protected from this, either by having the allowance secured or by moderate pay increases.
In exchange, the public service pension levy will be cut slightly; the €15,000 to €20,000 band rate will be cut from 5 per cent to 2.5 per cent.

whiteandlight · 25-02-2013 01:28PM

You really should quote the source...

jank · 25-02-2013 01:30PM

donegal11 wrote: »

If they get the billion savings how did the government cave?

No reform, no cutting of excess fat.

jank · 25-02-2013 01:33PM

Riskymove wrote: »

have just heard some more details - apparantly full document will be available over next day or two

the paycut expected to be aorund €200m of the billion

Ah, so the other 800 will be some 'efficiencies' malarkey drummed up by the unions.

SB2013 · 25-02-2013 01:34PM

jank wrote: »

Ah, so the other 800 will be some 'efficiencies' malarkey drummed up by the unions.

They'll be things like career breaks and further reduction in overtime.

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 01:35PM

jank wrote: »

Ah, so the other 800 will be some 'efficiencies' malarkey drummed up by the unions.

no not really

other measures mentioned so far are:

extra working hours
reduced overtime rates
reduced/elminated premium payments
freeze on increments
further reduction in overall PS numbers

ParkRunner · 25-02-2013 01:38PM

jank wrote: »

Ah, so the other 800 will be some 'efficiencies' malarkey drummed up by the unions.

Wasn't it the LRC that put together the costed proposals rather than "the union crowd"? Realistically the lower paid could not be targetted again with paycuts as agreement simply wouldn't be reached on such proposals and net savings would not be substantial in any case

Tombo2001 · 25-02-2013 01:41PM

EF wrote: »

Wasn't it the LRC that put together the costed proposals rather than "the union crowd"? Realistically the lower paid could not be targetted again with paycuts as agreement simply wouldn't be reached on such proposals and net savings would not be substantial in any case

Thats the bottom line here, they know they can get this through.....its probably the most cuts they can get through.

Tombo2001 · 25-02-2013 01:42PM

when do we see the actual proposal as opposed to headlines..?

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 01:43PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

when do we see the actual proposal as opposed to headlines..?

I have heard tomorrow or wednesday

ParkRunner · 25-02-2013 01:47PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats the bottom line here, they know they can get this through.....its probably the most cuts they can get through.

Exactly. Even an extended freeze on increments for those in lower paid bracket would probably have not passed in the ballots.

Tombo2001 · 25-02-2013 01:55PM

EF wrote: »

Exactly. Even an extended freeze on increments for those in lower paid bracket would probably have not passed in the ballots.

In other words, the walk-outs worked.

Kristopherus · 25-02-2013 02:01PM

Uriel. wrote: »

http://www.impact.ie/13/02/25/Public-Service-Unions-protected-workers-in-Croke-Park-negotiations-.htm

Lot's of gap filling to be done.

The higher paid seem to have taken all of the hits this time, or at least the vast majority of them, paycuts and a freeze on increments for three years. Does that not go against the findings that the biggest gaps in pay between public and private was at the lower end of the payscales? I am amazed that the cuts weren't broader than that. Senior managers across the public sector may start to ask:
Is there any point in trying to progress through the ranks

If cuts were that easy to be found, why was it not done before now and would a even a relatively token cut from lower grades produced an even bigger saving

Why are politicians and senior government officials/advisors not equitably sharing in this pain

Why are those retired politicians and Public Servants on high pensions so untouchable?

http://www.siptu.ie/media/pressreleases2013/mainnews/fullstory_16999_en.html

The SIPTU website has the exact same details as the Impact site. I guess the devil is in the detail.

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 02:13PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

In other words, the walk-outs worked.

Doubt those items were ever serious tbh because they'd have been too hard to swallow. IMO they were just negotiating tools to give the unions some "victories" to allow them to save face.

nesf · 25-02-2013 02:30PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Does that not go against the findings that the biggest gaps in pay between public and private was at the lower end of the payscales?

The Government couldn't expect the unions to pass any measures that cut salaries around the 30k mark despite any serious reduction in the public pay bill requiring further reductions for people earning under 40k. We'll not see a FF or FG/Lab Government make any serious reductions though, I can only see it happening if an outside agency takes direct control.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 02:31PM

The Journal gives an overview of what is known so far.

THE LABOUR Relations Commission has released some details of a draft public pay agreement between the government and the public trade unions.
The proposals were finalised at about 11am this morning after marathon overnight talks in Ballsbridge.
The proposals below, which will incorporate the terms of the Croke Park agreement and extend its final deadline for another two years, will now be put to trade unions for their individual consideration.

The deal will run for three years, from July 2013 to June 2016. The current Croke Park Agreement was due to expire in June 2014, at the end of a four year term.

The deal will achieve the entire €1 billion in savings sought by the government over the three-year period. This is in addition to the estimated €1 billion that the existing Croke Park deal was likely to save between June 2012 and June 2014. The independent implementation body says the deal saved €1.5 billion between 2010 and 2012.

There will be sliding pay cuts for workers earning above €65,000 a year. These are as follows:
A 5.5 per cent pay cut (on the first €80,000 of salary and allowances) for staff earning over €65,000 a year
An 8 per cent cut for staff earning over €80,000
A 9 per cent cut for staff earning over €150,000
A 10 per cent cut for staff earning over €185,000.
Working hours will increase across the public service, in an effort to reduce agency costs and to help cover the workload left by staff leaving the sector. Those working under 35 hours a week will now work a minimum of 37 hours. Those working between 35 and 39 hours a week will work a minimum of 39 hours.

Overtime rates will be cut and are now linked to a workers’ salary. Those earning under €35,000 will receive overtime at time-and-a-half. Those on over €35,000 will be paid at time-and-a-quarter. Workers currently on 39 hours a week will provide an unpaid hour’s overtime.
The Sunday premium will be retained, but at a reduced rate – going from double-time to time-and-three-quarters. Saturday payments are unaffected, but ‘Twilight payments’ in the health sector – where staff are paid time-and-one-sixth for work between 6pm and 8pm, or until the end of a rostered shift – will go.

The deal freezes increments for public staff depending on how much they earn. Those on under €35,000 will have their next increment delayed by three months; those between €35,000 and €65,000 will have the next two increments delayed by three months apiece. Staff over €65,000 will have to wait three years for the next increment.
Workers at the top ends of their pay scales will lose either six days of annual leave over the next three years, or half of the value of their last increment, whichever costs them less.

In the education sector, teachers will lose their supervision and substitution payments – though TheJournal.ie that entrants in the last two years will maintain this, or alternatively receive a modest salary increase, to reflect larger previous cuts to their salaries since 2010.
The public sector pension levy will be cut modestly, with pay between €15,000 to €20,000 now subject to a rate of 2.5 per cent instead of 5 per cent.

Other measures described by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform include:
Revisions to flexitime arrangements and work-sharing patterns
Revisions to redeployment provisions, though the 45km maximum limit is thought to be maintained
Strengthened performance management arrangements
Proposals to restructure grades in the public sector

It will be interesting to see the finer detail of the bolded bit.

I think that aside from seeking a 1 Billion saving in the cost of public service, the actual structure of the deal aims to divide (and conquer(?)) various elements of the PS. Lower Paid staff may well feel lucky to escape an actual cut in pay (may see a slight increase with change in pension levy??), senior staff clearly hit the hardest in the deal, and then those workers (emergency staff etc...) who work unsociable hours hit with effective paycuts (e.g. nighttime work is not voluntary, they have to work it).

I don't know if you would call the agreement equitable in terms of "feeling the pain" but it's certainly affecting different parts of the PS differently, perhaps enough to shatter any union between different areas of the Sector??

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 03:08PM

The deal freezes increments for public staff depending on how much they earn. Those on under €35,000 will have their next increment delayed by three months; those between €35,000 and €65,000 will have the next two increments delayed by three months apiece. Staff over €65,000 will have to wait three years for the next increment.

So what we have is a delay in giving increments to those under 65,000 rather than an actual freeze in giving increments.

‘Twilight payments’ in the health sector – where staff are paid time-and-one-sixth for work between 6pm and 8pm, or until the end of a rostered shift – will go.

The twilight payments are something that I don't mind seeing as it can be hard to get people to work evenings and nights, so I think this may be a bit of a step too far.

The public sector pension levy will be cut modestly, with pay between €15,000 to €20,000 now subject to a rate of 2.5 per cent instead of 5 per cent.

There are PS workers earning less than 20k?

samsamson · 25-02-2013 03:09PM

Do any of the proposed changes affect third level lecturers in universities, IoT's, etc?

letsbet · 25-02-2013 03:12PM

samsamson wrote: »

Do any of the proposed changes affect third level lecturers in universities, IoT's, etc?

Do you mean apart from the pay changes? In the last deal lecturers' hours increased and that will probably happen again, eventhough the people are close to breaking point (personal experience).

With regards to the cuts, you would imagine that they would be done on amounts over certain thresholds rather than on total amounts. If it's on the total amount, which is what's indicated above someone earning €65,000 today will earn €61,425 in future and someone earning €64,000 today will continue to do so. How can that be fair or reasonable! If true, then you'd be better off it today you are earning €61,500 than €65,000. From reports coming out today it seems that this crazy situation will happen.

Uriel. · 25-02-2013 03:16PM

antoobrien wrote: »

So what we have is a delay in giving increments to those under 65,000 rather than an actual freeze in giving increments.

The twilight payments are something that I don't mind seeing as it can be hard to get people to work evenings and nights, so I think this may be a bit of a step too far.

There are PS workers earning less than 20k?

I have to be on honest, I don't see the point in the 3 month delay of increments. If they weren't going to freeze them for a timreframe that was meaningful (e.g. over a year), then I think it would have been better off leaving it be. What does 3 months actually achieve?

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:17PM

antoobrien wrote: »

There are PS workers earning less than 20k?

yes, about 20,000 of them

Do any of the proposed changes affect third level lecturers in universities, IoT's, etc?

if they earn over €65k then yes

the detail of the extra working hours is needed to see full impact

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:21PM

Uriel. wrote: »

I have to be on honest, I don't see the point in the 3 month delay of increments. If they weren't going to freeze them for a timreframe that was meaningful (e.g. over a year), then I think it would have been better off leaving it be. What does 3 months actually achieve?

its fairly bizarre, it would save very little, depending on what time of year the increment is due

road_high · 25-02-2013 03:29PM

Uriel. wrote: »

I have to be on honest, I don't see the point in the 3 month delay of increments. If they weren't going to freeze them for a timreframe that was meaningful (e.g. over a year), then I think it would have been better off leaving it be. What does 3 months actually achieve?

Kicking the can (slightly) down the road. Just like the rest of it. What's the bet we will be back in 3 years talking about CP3 because the deficit still will remain and savings still need to be made!

Riskymove · 25-02-2013 03:33PM

letsbet wrote: »

With regards to the cuts, you would imagine that they would be done on amounts over certain thresholds rather than on total amounts. If it's on the total amount, which is what's indicated above someone earning €65,000 today will earn €61,425 in future and someone earning €64,000 today will continue to do so. How can that be fair or reasonable! If true, then you'd be better off it today you are earning €61,500 than €65,000. From reports coming out today it seems that this crazy situation will happen.

the latest I have heard is that €65k is the minum you can be reduced to in order to avoid this :rolleyes:

letsbet · 25-02-2013 03:38PM

Riskymove wrote: »

the latest I have heard is that €65k is the minum you can be reduced to in order to avoid this :rolleyes:

]

Oh right. That removes some of the anomalous nature of the change but changing someone who's on €68,500 to €65,000 and leaving someone else on 65000 seems a bit odd all the same (although not as bad as the earlier example).

antoobrien · 25-02-2013 03:40PM

Riskymove wrote: »

its fairly bizarre, it would save very little, depending on what time of year the increment is due

The only way I can see it making sense is if the majority of increments are due in Q4, in which case it will save 1 years increments. Even then the "savings" will only be in the first budget year as the increments will still be paid in subsequent years. This one looks kinda dodgy.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Comments