Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 06:28PM

Godge wrote: »

Why? We can just raise taxes and cut social welfare and grants to the GPA and farmers.

Cutting public service pay isn't the only policy option and not one person on here has been able to put forward a rational case for doing so over any other policy option.

I agree, all options need to be looked at. However, we do have 1 of the highest paid PS worker scales in the world, that seems a little odd for a country in an IMF bailout.

Godge · 23-02-2013 06:30PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, all options need to be looked at. However, we do have 1 of the highest paid PS worker scales in the world, that seems a little odd for a country in an IMF bailout.

No, we do not, please justify by reference to purchasing power parity, pension levy deductions using 2013 data.

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 06:30PM

Godge wrote: »

This is where blindnes and lack of knowledge gets you.

Your post refers to regulators.

There are aviation regulatars, taxi regulators, communication regulators, regulators of competition, none of whom have been castigated in the way Neary was. Yet you take one isolated example of one particular regulator who has done a bad job and use it as a reason to cut the pension of all regulators.

I again ask you the question (which you can answer when you have done some research on all of the other regulators) why a hard-working (over 60 hours per week) efficient, high-performing regulator have his/her pension cut and not teachers who have every summer off just because one internet poster thinks it would be a good idea.

Teachers have had their pensions cut. How many more times I have to point this out to people.

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 06:34PM

Godge wrote: »

No, we do not, please justify by reference to purchasing power parity, pension levy deductions using 2013 data.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0914/1224324008263.html
As measured by gross national product, often considered a better indicator for this economy, the share stood at 15 per cent. By that measure, it was the third-highest among the 27 member countries.

SB2013 · 23-02-2013 06:49PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Many people here think they are informed, but alas, I have seen very few informed posters.

Paycuts are needed, the country is bust. We don't need to be informed or otherwise to know that.

Yes you do because you need to know why.

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, all options need to be looked at. However, we do have 1 of the highest paid PS worker scales in the world, that seems a little odd for a country in an IMF bailout.

Rightwing wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0914/1224324008263.html
As measured by gross national product, often considered a better indicator for this economy, the share stood at 15 per cent. By that measure, it was the third-highest among the 27 member countries.

A very poor article. If you make comparisons on a job by job basis there is little in the difference.

doc_17 · 23-02-2013 06:49PM

Government have tabled a proposal to freeze increments at all levels this afternoon. I'd say a few more unions will seriously consider their further participation in these "negotiations".

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 06:49PM

doc_17 wrote: »

Government have tabled a proposal to freeze increments at all levels.

Welcome, but still 5 years too late.

woodoo · 23-02-2013 08:19PM

doc_17 wrote: »

Government have tabled a proposal to freeze increments at all levels this afternoon. I'd say a few more unions will seriously consider their further participation in these "negotiations".

I agree if they freeze them they will just keep on extending the freezing process until god knows when.

I will be voting no in the ballot if that is the case.

tayto lover · 23-02-2013 08:20PM

woodoo wrote: »

I agree if they freeze them they will just keep on extending the freezing process until god knows when.

I will be voting no in the ballot if that is the case.

I think the whole Croke Park thing will unravel tomorrow or early next week.
Summer of discontent ahead.

woodoo · 23-02-2013 08:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I think the whole Croke Park thing will unravel tomorrow or early next week.
Summer of discontent ahead.

Ingrid Miley was on earlier saying they want to freeze increments, row back increments for those at the top, att a few hours to the working week, make people transfer up to 80KM (50miles) each way:D. That will never wash. We would be better off letting them just cut pay and we then refuse to cooperate with any reforms at all.

deise blue · 23-02-2013 08:36PM

woodoo wrote: »

Ingrid Miley was on earlier saying they want to freeze increments, row back increments for those at the top, att a few hours to the working week, make people transfer up to 80KM (50miles) each way:D. That will never wash. We would be better off letting them just cut pay and we then refuse to cooperate with any reforms at all.

Couldn't agree more , the appropriate Unions should now withdraw from all negotiations on the basis that it would be impossible to sell these draconian conditions to their members.

The Unions should further inform the Government that they intend to ballot their members as soon as possible to sanction industrial action up to & including all out strike in the event that further pay cuts are legislated for.

Let's see who blinks first.

tayto lover · 23-02-2013 08:46PM

woodoo wrote: »

Ingrid Miley was on earlier saying they want to freeze increments, row back increments for those at the top, att a few hours to the working week, make people transfer up to 80KM (50miles) each way:D. That will never wash. We would be better off letting them just cut pay and we then refuse to cooperate with any reforms at all.

What percentage were they threatening to cut your wages and allowances exactly?

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 08:55PM

deise blue wrote: »

Couldn't agree more , the appropriate Unions should now withdraw from all negotiations on the basis that it would be impossible to sell these draconian conditions to their members.

The Unions should further inform the Government that they intend to ballot their members as soon as possible to sanction industrial action up to & including all out strike in the event that further pay cuts are legislated for.

Let's see who blinks first.

That's just what I want. And the Government should say, bring it on.

tayto lover · 23-02-2013 09:00PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's just what I want. And the Government should say, bring it on.

That's what I want too. A good Public Sector strike during our Presidency. Show Europe that our Govt are not up to the challenge and bring them down.
I would be worried about being sick or having my home broken into with the nurses and garda on strike and the schools being shut though. Come to think of it if the schools shut then people will have to stay at home from work with their young kids.

RGS · 23-02-2013 09:05PM

The suggestion that the Dept of Health are seeing a pay rise for the new head of the HSE should see all frontline 24/7 workers walk away from these talks and tell the govt we stand by CP1 and expect it to be honoured and tell the govt to stuff their reform agenda.

This suggested increase clearly demonstrates that those in charge are only interested in bullying the lower paid and feathering their own nest.

How can anyone take this government serious when during pay talks they are even entertaining this request from the dept of health.

Howlin/Kenny and O'Reilly should denounce this request without delay.

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 09:05PM

tayto lover wrote: »

That's what I want too. A good Public Sector strike during our Presidency. Show Europe that our Govt are not up to the challenge and bring them down.
I would be worried about being sick or having my home broken into with the nurses and garda on strike and the schools being shut though. Come to think of it if the schools shut then people will have to stay at home from work with their young kids.

Europe thinks Kenny & co. are the business.

No one should be frightened with strikes. The show will always go on. Maggie Thatcher proved that.

tayto lover · 23-02-2013 09:07PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Europe thinks Kenny & co. are the business.

No one should be frightened with strikes. The show will always go on. Maggie Thatcher proved that.

Maggie hadn't nurses, police, prison officers, firemen, teachers etc out at the same time.

Rightwing · 23-02-2013 09:10PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Maggie hadn't nurses, police, prison officers, firemen, teachers etc out at the same time.

Government can't allow unions put a gun to their heads.

The only downside to all of this is FF will make great progress out of it, and they were the ones who caused the whole thing.

It takes great courage for a party to implement these cuts, I still fear labour & FG will buckle.

woodoo · 23-02-2013 09:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What percentage were they threatening to cut your wages and allowances exactly?

I haven't heard a figure

woodoo · 23-02-2013 09:15PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Government can't allow unions put a gun to their heads.

Well that can come back with something sensible. Expecting staff to travel a 100 mile round trip to their work with fuel prices the way they are is a farce.

Farmer Pudsey · 23-02-2013 11:22PM

Godge wrote: »

No, we do not, please justify by reference to purchasing power parity, pension levy deductions using 2013 data.

Purchasing power is the same for private sector workers and public sector workers. There is little point in using 2013 figures. it is a bit like comparing cuts since 2008 and not lopking at the way numbers and wages in the PS had risen between 2000 and 2008. The reality is that during the boom PS costs got completly out of control as Bertie threw money at every problem. this lead to a explosion of numbers and wages in the public service. As one wag in a pub said recently a national school is likt a small factory in most small towns or villages nowadays.

doc_17 wrote: »

Government have tabled a proposal to freeze increments at all levels this afternoon. I'd say a few more unions will seriously consider their further participation in these "negotiations".

tayto lover wrote: »

I think the whole Croke Park thing will unravel tomorrow or early next week.
Summer of discontent ahead.

We have been hearing that it will all close down since the start of the talks the unions know that it is the only show in town and that if the government got into the habit of leglistating for pay in the public service where would it end. This should have happened two years ago

Good loser · 24-02-2013 12:01AM

woodoo wrote: »

I haven't heard a figure

The alternative was a 7% across the board cut. Although they say an imposed cut will be varied and nuanced.

7% of €14 bn would be almost €1 bn. But, I think, the saving of €1 bn is to be achieved over 3 years. I guess this means the cost of PS pay must be €1 bn lower in 2015 than it was in 2012. Of course the 'savings' will be gross; there will be associated reductions in tax, PRSI and USC. So the net reduction in pay will be lower than the headline rate; that's good news for those affected.

Believe this €1 bn saving was announced in the 2012 budget as part of the 'cuts in spending'.

sarumite · 24-02-2013 12:29AM

Godge wrote: »

This is where blindnes and lack of knowledge gets you.

Your post refers to regulators.

There are aviation regulatars, taxi regulators, communication regulators, regulators of competition, none of whom have been castigated in the way Neary was. Yet you take one isolated example of one particular regulator who has done a bad job and use it as a reason to cut the pension of all regulators.

I again ask you the question (which you can answer when you have done some research on all of the other regulators) why a hard-working (over 60 hours per week) efficient, high-performing regulator have his/her pension cut and not teachers who have every summer off just because one internet poster thinks it would be a good idea.

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think there is a taxi regulator. The commision responsible for taxi regulation was dissolved in Januray 2011. While the NTA took up much of the duties, they do not technically regulate the taxi industry. If I am wrong, I am happy to put it down to my lack of knowledge on the subject.

creedp · 24-02-2013 01:11AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

We have been hearing that it will all close down since the start of the talks the unions know that it is the only show in town and that if the government got into the habit of leglistating for pay in the public service where would it end. This should have happened two years ago

What exactly should have happenned 2 years ago? What actually did happen is that in 2009 & 2010 the Govt legislated for 2 pay cuts which cut pay by between 12% - 15%. In addition, the Govt agreed that in addition to the 2 pay cuts a pay freeze would be implemented for 4 years and in response to the PS agreeing to this no further pay cuts would be implemented over this period.

To put that in context the CSO reported in today's Independent that not surprisingly construction workers took the biggest hit in pay over the course of the last 4 years with an average 11.1% decrease. However, it is reporting that some construction workers saw their pay regain some ground with an increase of 5.8% between end 2011 and 2012.

Now I want to make it clear Im not begrudging anyone getting a pay increase - that would be pretty judgemental of me. I'm simply making reference to the construction sector pay increases because this is the sector that has been decimated by the recession with a couple of hundred thousand losing their jobs, the building industry on its knees, 10s thousands emigrating to find work etc. Yet average pay reduced by 11% and now is starting to turn around.

In relation to increments it was interesting to hear a spokesperson for the CIF refuted that the increase represented a trend in the industry because "anyone who is still working and maturing in their career would be advancing anyway in their careers" he said. Interesting isn't? In an industry that is decimated, it is considered appropriate that those left working should be be entitled to increments. Just in case I get a barrage of abuse for questioning this entitlement - let me make it clear I am not!!

luckyboy · 24-02-2013 09:46AM

In terms of civil service grades, Rte are reporting that access to Flexi-time is to be "restricted" for HEOs, as well as APs. Wonder what that means?

SB2013 · 24-02-2013 10:06AM

Rightwing wrote: »

Government can't allow unions put a gun to their heads.

The only downside to all of this is FF will make great progress out of it, and they were the ones who caused the whole thing.

It takes great courage for a party to implement these cuts, I still fear labour & FG will buckle.

I think you've got the concept wrong. The government should be afraid of the people. They are supposed to be representing their interests. That's the whole point of our electoral system. What the government shouldn't be doing is securing their own pensions, giving their friends/advisers jobs above the pay cap and ignoring what the people want.

murphaph · 24-02-2013 10:27AM

SB2013 wrote: »

I think you've got the concept wrong. The government should be afraid of the people. They are supposed to be representing their interests. That's the whole point of our electoral system. What the government shouldn't be doing is securing their own pensions, giving their friends/advisers jobs above the pay cap and ignoring what the people want.

"the people" != "the people in the public service".

Public servants are part of a wider population. That wider population does not always share the concerns of public servants for their wages. That wider population foots the bill ultimately and wants to see their increased taxes spent in a fair and efficient way.

The people, the wider circle of people beyond the public sector that is, do not want the govt feathering their own nest nor do they want the govt being held to ransom by the public service unions.

fall · 24-02-2013 11:02AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

The problem is there was no "expected level" previous to this which resulted in everyone getting increments no matter how good or bad they were. You still seem to have this mindset that you should get them regardless of performance.

This is the problem for me. There are people in the public sector who should be fired and then there are those who do a brilliant job and often go over and above what they have to do. Croke park should have been about getting rid of the people who I believe steal a living. It has done nothing to address this problem and just targets everyone in the PS. So the people that really work hard feel hard done by.

deise blue · 24-02-2013 11:50AM

murphaph wrote: »

"the people" != "the people in the public service".

Public servants are part of a wider population. That wider population does not always share the concerns of public servants for their wages. That wider population foots the bill ultimately and wants to see their increased taxes spent in a fair and efficient way.

The people, the wider circle of people beyond the public sector that is, do not want the govt feathering their own nest nor do they want the govt being held to ransom by the public service unions.

That's a bit of a generalisation , many of us whose background is in the private sector are totally supportive of the Unions & Public Sector employees , even in this thread that much is obvious.

I must say that I have been surprised but gratified at the wide support for the GRA action as evidenced by the comments section in both the times & Indo - perhaps " people " are happy to see someone making a stand.

Rightwing · 24-02-2013 11:51AM

fall wrote: »

This is the problem for me. There are people in the public sector who should be fired and then there are those who do a brilliant job and often go over and above what they have to do. Croke park should have been about getting rid of the people who I believe steal a living. It has done nothing to address this problem and just targets everyone in the PS. So the people that really work hard feel hard done by.

There's undoubtedly an element of truth in this, and also I believe a sense of entitlement that prevails in the PS. You must earn that entitlement.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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