Is Mormonism a Christian faith?

lazygal · 22-02-2013 05:54PM #1

I've recently read a couple of books on the history of Mormonism and current followers. There's much mention of 'regular' gospel and the Book of Mormon. Is it a Christian faith? And why/why not?

martinedwards · 22-02-2013 06:06PM

Mormons say yes.

pretty much everyone else says no.

heres a fairly sane discussion.....

http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

Benny_Cake · 22-02-2013 06:34PM

Good question, and a difficult one to answer definitively. On the surface, the LDS church is Christian in that it proclaims Jesus Christ as the son of God and Lord. However, as you have probably found out, it has some very unusual extra features which are radically different to historical Christianity, including as regards the nature of God. The concept of ancient Jewish tribes settling the Americas is pretty far out there for most non-Mormons, particularly given the lack of archaeological evidence after all this time. Of course, there have also been many misunderstandings too as to what Mormons believe (summarised in this very good article.

What is definitely the case is that Mormonism arose from a Christian context, uses much of the same language as mainstream Christians do, and while many of their beliefs are heterodox, there is no question that many Mormons love and follow Jesus as their Saviour with an intensity that would put many "orthodox" Christians to shame. I've met a few and I can honestly say they don't strike me as members of a cult, as some "counter-cult" organisations seem to think they are (although a number of groups in the US removed this designation when Mitt Romney was nominated as the Republican candidate for President - funny that). All in all, I think those of us who claim to follow Christ should probably spend more time looking at how we can be better disciples and less time trying to figure out who is "in" and who is "out" of the club.

philologos · 22-02-2013 08:38PM

I would say that it is based on Christianity, but due to additional teachings in the Book of Mormon / Doctrine and Covenants / The Pearl of Great Price I wouldn't say that it is orthodox Christianity.

totus tuus · 22-02-2013 09:06PM

From a Catholic perspective, Pope John Paul II officially declared that the baptism administered by Mormons is invalid, so no, they are not Christians.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

maguffin · 22-02-2013 10:54PM

totus tuus wrote: »

From a Catholic perspective, Pope John Paul II officially declared that the baptism administered by Mormons is invalid, so no, they are not Christians.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

Why? the link shows only the word 'Negative' as a response to the question....so what are the reasons??

From what I've read about Mormon baptism, they use similar terminology and whilst accepting that they do differ in that they immerse the person being baptised in water.
Their Baptism is seen as symbolic both of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection and is also symbolic of the baptized individual putting off of the natural or sinful man and becoming spiritually reborn as a disciple of Jesus.

Membership into a Latter Day Saint church is granted only by baptism whether or not a person has been raised in the Church.

When performing a baptism, the following instructions are followed:

"The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
"Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water."

Baptisms inside and outside the temples are usually done in a baptismal font, although, baptisms done outside the temples can be performed in any body of water in which the person may be completely immersed.

lmaopml · 22-02-2013 11:03PM

No, Mormons are not 'Orthodox' - that's fairly clear cut, I would imagine they would agree themselves - they have a 'new revelation' after Christ in the book of Mormon which started in the Americas, which I read many years ago, as a teen accepting a gift from a person who knocked on the door.

They have some beliefs that are not or very far from Orthodox, (Yikes ) but they do profess faith in Christ - and to be honest they, as Benny alludes would put most Christians to shame with how they adhere to that teaching - and they require a period of detachment from family in order to spread the faith in missionary work, which is a huge undertaking for any person if they are not quite ready.

Christian churches don't make those demands of every single family, but let the person choose how they can be effective in any community without laying down the path they should take..

In fairness, when I think of the Mormons I know, I 'smile' because they are really very cool people, I'm thinking specifically about the lovely Katie Taylor, who in my opinion as a Catholic is the bees knees and spiders ankles!

I think that possibly Jesus might agree - after all he is not bound by opinion, but has a much higher perspective.

I have a respect for the Mormons much like I do for the Quakers.

totus tuus · 22-02-2013 11:49PM

maguffin wrote: »

Why? the link shows only the word 'Negative' as a response to the question....so what are the reasons??

From what I've read about Mormon baptism, they use similar terminology and whilst accepting that they do differ in that they immerse the person being baptised in water.
Their Baptism is seen as symbolic both of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection and is also symbolic of the baptized individual putting off of the natural or sinful man and becoming spiritually reborn as a disciple of Jesus.

Membership into a Latter Day Saint church is granted only by baptism whether or not a person has been raised in the Church.

When performing a baptism, the following instructions are followed:
"The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
"Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water."
Baptisms inside and outside the temples are usually done in a baptismal font, although, baptisms done outside the temples can be performed in any body of water in which the person may be completely immersed.

They may use similar terminology but the 'intent' behind the baptism makes it invalid! The Mormon religion believe that there are 3 Gods, not one!

Do Mormons baptize with proper intent? No; for Mormons deny original sin, and that Jesus Christ established the sacrament of baptism, and that Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons in which subsists the one Godhead.

Rather they believe that they are three gods who form one divinity, that one is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony (Joseph F. Smith, ed., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith [TPJSI, Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1976, p. 372).

http://mattfradd.com/2013/01/09/is-mormonism-a-christian-religion/

lmaopml · 23-02-2013 12:14AM

I think that being a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints or the commonly known 'Mormons' is distinctive by how they see God in Scripture, and of course the Incarnate 'Word', and also the addition of the Book of Mormon too which colors this view with a new revelation...

From Wiki ( by no means exhaustive..or even trustworthy truth be told) but however:

In the Mormonism represented by most of Mormon communities (including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), "God" means Elohim (the Father), whereas "Godhead" means a council of three distinct gods; Elohim, Jehovah (the Son, or Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have perfected, material bodies, while the Holy Spirit is a spirit and does not have a body. This conception differs from the traditional Christian Trinity; in Mormonism, the three persons are considered to be physically separate beings, or personages, but united in will and purpose.[1] As such, the term "Godhead" differs from how it is used in traditional Christianity. This description of God represents the orthodoxy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), established early in the 19th century. However, the Mormon concept of God has expanded since the faith's founding in the late 1820s.

Most early Latter Day Saints came from a Protestant background, believing in the doctrine of Trinity that had been developed during the early centuries of Christianity. Before about 1835, Mormon theological teachings were similar to that established view.[2] However, Smith's teachings regarding the nature of the Godhead developed during his lifetime, becoming most fully elaborated in the few years prior to his murder in 1844. Beginning as an unelaborated description of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being "One", Smith taught that the Father and the Son were distinct personal members of the Godhead as early as 1832 (See D&C 76:12-24). Smith's public teachings later described the Father and Son as possessing distinct physical bodies, being one together with the Holy Ghost, not in material substance, but instead united in spirit, glory, and purpose–a view sometimes called social trinitarianism.[3]
[edit]Teachings in the 1820s and early 1830s

So, it's possibly pretty clear that the person of Jesus Christ and his divinity is not the same as what Christians see as fairly clear in the Gospels, or understand 'Jesus' to actually 'be'...

In Christianity, Orthodoxy is the earliest commonly held understanding as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Mormons are not Orthodox in this sense...

recedite · 23-02-2013 12:39AM

totus tuus wrote: »

The Mormon religion believe that there are 3 Gods, not one!
...that Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons in which subsists the one Godhead. Rather they believe that they are three gods who form one divinity, that one is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony /

Eh.. What's the difference here? Would you deny the divinity of Jesus?
One God composed of three divinities, either way of looking at it.
A divinity= a deity= a god.

lmaopml wrote: »

So, it's possibly pretty clear that the person of Jesus Christ and his divinity is not the same as what Christians see as fairly clear in the Gospels, or understand 'Jesus' to actually 'be'....

Is it?

lmaopml · 23-02-2013 12:45AM

Well you explain how you see the 'Trinity' so recidite? No point in just dabbling.

How have you read the Gospels and perceived Christ?

recedite · 23-02-2013 01:01AM

Muslims and Jews accept Jesus as a holy man, but deny his divinity. Mormons accept Jesus's divinity, as do Christians.
Its a three-in-one deity situation. Make of it what you will, but that is the traditional explanation AFAIK, for both Mormon and Christian.

lmaopml · 23-02-2013 01:10AM

Are you an atheist Recedite?

The OP asked a question, and the Christians on the Forum answered it to the best of their ability in so far as they view themselves as Christians in the earliest reading of scripture and revelation from earliest times as a presentation of what is an orthodox understanding.

You merely answered what 'others' believe - which is decidedly off topic.

What do 'you' believe?

Fanny Cradock · 23-02-2013 01:20AM

This interview with Bobby Gilpin might be of interest. If you do a search on the site you will find more.

maguffin · 23-02-2013 08:54AM

lmaopml wrote: »

Are you an atheist Recedite?

The OP asked a question, and the Christians on the Forum answered it to the best of their ability in so far as they view themselves as Christians in the earliest reading of scripture and revelation from earliest times as a presentation of what is an orthodox understanding.

You merely answered what 'others' believe - which is decidedly off topic.

What do 'you' believe?

This 'Christianity' forum is not exclusively for christians only to debate on!! We all have a right to freedom of speech irrespective of what our 'belief' system is. Your questioning whether or not Recedite is an atheist implies he/she shouldn't be contributing to ths particular topic.

Pointing out what others believe is a valid support to Recedite's answer, and not 'off topic'.

I do not follow the christian faith but that does not stop me from having an opinion nor voicing that opinion when necessary.

Benny_Cake · 23-02-2013 10:35AM

maguffin wrote: »

Why? the link shows only the word 'Negative' as a response to the question....so what are the reasons??

From what I've read about Mormon baptism, they use similar terminology and whilst accepting that they do differ in that they immerse the person being baptised in water.
Their Baptism is seen as symbolic both of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection and is also symbolic of the baptized individual putting off of the natural or sinful man and becoming spiritually reborn as a disciple of Jesus.

Membership into a Latter Day Saint church is granted only by baptism whether or not a person has been raised in the Church.

When performing a baptism, the following instructions are followed:
"The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
"Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water."
Baptisms inside and outside the temples are usually done in a baptismal font, although, baptisms done outside the temples can be performed in any body of water in which the person may be completely immersed.

As far as I know, the reasoning behind the rejection of the validity of Mormon baptisms (and they are also rejected by the Orthodox and most Protestant churches), is that Mormons mean something rather different to mainstream Christians when they use the words "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" (I did a search myself and all I could find by way of an official statement is the same, rather unhelpful one-word answer!). It's a bit of an awkward one though as traditionally the Catholic Church as well as a number of other churches would recognise any baptism according to the above formula as valid regardless of who performed it, so it must come down to the intent of the person performing the baptism.

As it relates to the OP though, does not having a formula of baptism which is accepted by other churches make the LDS Church un-Christian? There are other denominations, which are accepted by most people as Christian, and which sit with other Christian groups in organisations such as "Churches Together in Britain and Ireland" which don't perform baptisms of any description - namely the Quakers and the Salvation Army. Most people would automatically describe them as Christian. So I don't think baptism can be the deciding factor.

Oh, and lmaopml, Katie Taylor is a Pentecostalist (in case any of her brethren get upset that Ireland's most famous evangelical Christian has been stolen!).

recedite · 23-02-2013 02:27PM

lmaopml wrote: »

Are you an atheist Recedite?
You merely answered what 'others' believe - which is decidedly off topic.

Yes I am atheist, but the topic is whether or not Mormonism is a Christian faith.
All I am saying is that to answer the question you need to look at how Mormonism differs from other Christian sects. In terms of the concept of Holy trinity, or Baptism, there is no significant difference IMO. But there are big differences elsewhere.
The Book of Mormon was first published by Joseph Smith in 1830, allegedly translated from ancient texts, contemporary with the biblical scriptures, which were written in an otherwise unheard of language called "Reformed Egyptian."
Compare this to people like Luther and Calvin whose treatises resulted in new Christian sects being formed. They never tried to pass off their writings as ancient scriptures. All they were proposing was a different "take" on the existing scriptures.
Then, looking even closer at Mormonism, you find the really strange stuff concerning the planet Kolob.

But does having add-on beliefs mean Mormons are not Christians? I know lots of people who believe in astrology, and they are still Christians.
IMO the core belief of Christianity is that you must believe in the divinity of Jesus, and if you believe in that you will follow his teachings, whatever you believe those to be. Hence you will study the gospels looking for guidance. Beyond that, whatever other beliefs you may have is not really relevant, as long they as they don't actually contradict the core beliefs.

philologos · 23-02-2013 03:29PM

recedite wrote: »

Yes I am atheist, but the topic is whether or not Mormonism is a Christian faith.
All I am saying is that to answer the question you need to look at how Mormonism differs from other Christian sects. In terms of the concept of Holy trinity, or Baptism, there is no significant difference IMO. But there are big differences elsewhere.
The Book of Mormon was first published by Joseph Smith in 1830, allegedly translated from ancient texts, contemporary with the biblical scriptures, which were written in an otherwise unheard of language called "Reformed Egyptian."
Compare this to people like Luther and Calvin whose treatises resulted in new Christian sects being formed. They never tried to pass off their writings as ancient scriptures. All they were proposing was a different "take" on the existing scriptures.
Then, looking even closer at Mormonism, you find the really strange stuff concerning the planet Kolob.

But does having add-on beliefs mean Mormons are not Christians? I know lots of people who believe in astrology, and they are still Christians.
IMO the core belief of Christianity is that you must believe in the divinity of Jesus, and if you believe in that you will follow his teachings, whatever you believe those to be. Hence you will study the gospels looking for guidance. Beyond that, whatever other beliefs you may have is not really relevant, as long they as they don't actually contradict the core beliefs.

Having add-on beliefs that compromise the Gospel certainly brings the teaching into question.

On the Trinity I found looking through Doctrine and Covenants very interesting. For example this:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 wrote:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Christians don't believe that the Father or the Son are corporeal. Jesus took on human flesh while on earth (Philippians 2:1-10).

In Galatians 1:8 it also says that if anyone presents to you a gospel other than Christ that they will be accursed:

Galatians 1:6-9 wrote:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Calvin and Luther taught truth that is in the Bible. As a result their views are orthodox. Joseph Smith taught stuff that isn't in the Bible and is contrary to the Bible in a number of areas.

recedite · 23-02-2013 05:59PM

The main heresy of Christianity, from the point of view of Islam or orthodox Jews, is the idea that a person in human form (Jesus) would claim to be "God" who they believe would never appear in corporeal form.
And should never even be depicted in idol or image form. He should remain as an abstract.
In Christianity and/or Mormonism, you have the idea of the trinity, where it is possible for the abstract "God" to appear in various forms; as a ghost/spirit or indeed as a corporeal human.

philologos · 23-02-2013 06:03PM

recedite wrote: »

The main heresy of Christianity, from the point of view of Islam or orthodox Jews, is the idea that a person in human form (Jesus) would claim to be "God" who they believe would never appear in corporeal form.
And should never even be depicted in idol or image form. He should remain as an abstract.
In Christianity and/or Mormonism, you have the idea of the trinity, where it is possible for the abstract "God" to appear in various forms; as a ghost/spirit or indeed as a corporeal human.

Yes, but lazygal's question regards how orthodox Christians view Mormonism.

Mormonism deviates from orthodox Christianity. As I pointed you to, thinking that the Father, the Son and the Spirit have corporeal form in Christianity is unbiblical and as a result heretical.

Christianity does not present God as corporeal other than Jesus taking on human flesh for a temporal time.

recedite · 23-02-2013 06:19PM

But having done it once, is there not an implication that the Christian God can come back again a second time, or multiple times, taking on a human form?

newmug · 23-02-2013 06:26PM

Mormons are to Christianity as what Dubs are to Irishness.

philologos · 23-02-2013 06:26PM

recedite wrote: »

But having done it once, is there not an implication that the Christian God can come back again a second time, or multiple times, taking on a human form?

God the Father being in human flesh has never been a consideration in Judaism or Christianity.

God the Son being in human flesh before and indeed after he was in the world isn't orthodox.

If I see texts like the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants and so on making claims contrary to Scripture when Galatians 1:8 says let the one who brings another gospel be accursed, or when Hebrews 1:1-2 says that in the last days God has spoken to us through Jesus Christ there starts to be questions surrounding whether there can be extra-Biblical and unbiblical revelation.

Especially when these texts allegedly come from "ancient Egyptian" texts that we have no access to this makes it a little bit more difficult for me to justify.

Let me put it another way. If Mormonism was the same as orthodox Christianity why is there a need to regard the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl Of Great Price as Scripture?

martinedwards' link provides a lot of interesting thoughts on this issue.

philologos · 23-02-2013 06:34PM

recedite wrote: »

Eh.. What's the difference here? Would you deny the divinity of Jesus?
One God composed of three divinities, either way of looking at it.
A divinity= a deity= a god.

Is it?

No, that's not the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity.

Christians believe in one God, we are monotheists.

One God, three persons. Not three gods.

Pwpane · 23-02-2013 07:00PM

philologos wrote: »

No, that's not the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity.

Christians believe in one God, we are monotheists.

One God, three persons. Not three gods.

Philologos, can you expound on that a little, please? It's a long time since someone tried to explain that to me - how three persons can be one being, or conversely how one being can be/have three persons. It is difficult to see how three gods being one godhead is different to three persons being one god. Is it not just a difference of terminology? If the Mormons believe in one godhead how is that not monotheistic?

Also, I was not aware that Jesus does not have corporeal form now - did the apostles not watch him, body and all, ascend into heaven?

And if Jesus could take on human form, how do we know that God the Father never did or would? Perhaps he did, and has a body in heaven too - how could we know? It does seem wrong to think of God walking among us on earth and not existing as a pure spirit - I have sympathy for the Jewish and Muslim view here.

recedite · 23-02-2013 07:03PM

philologos wrote: »

Galatians 1:8 says let the one who brings another gospel be accursed, or when Hebrews 1:1-2 says that in the last days God has spoken to us through Jesus Christ there starts to be questions surrounding whether there can be extra-Biblical and unbiblical revelation.

"The Bible" means different things to different people though. There are less books in the Protestant version than the RC version, while the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has the most books in its "Bible."
Yes, the Mormons have a few extra books that you or I might well consider to be 19th Century forgeries, but the Mormons believe those books to be ancient scriptures. From their point of view, they just recognise a few extra books, pretty much like the Ethiopians do.

I accept your point that Mormons seem to believe that Jesus could appear in human form even while off planet Earth, whereas orthodox Christianity generally only depicts him as human while he is on Earth. But there is no huge contradiction there. Is there anything in Christianity to say that Jesus absolutely could not appear in human corporeal form, except while on Earth?

lmaopml · 23-02-2013 07:13PM

O Dear, I completely messed up as far as Katie Taylors religion. I always thought she was a Mormon. Sorry Katie!!

Also, Recidite apologies, there are so many fly bys on the forum sometimes that it gets right on my nelly - however, I shouldn't have presumed anything about your post. Truly sorry.

lmaopml · 23-02-2013 07:44PM

Pwpane, i'll just post this youtube clip for you that may go some way to at least try to explain the Trinity in orthodox thought.....It's very difficult to describe a 'mystery' tbh and not a little disconcerting to presume we know too much either - actually sometimes I think we can only say what we know about God in loose terms, we do know what God is NOT as revealed in Scripture as opposed to a full explanation as to every aspect of God. It might help...( I've forgot how to embed it, so I'll just post a link )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMI4rA4cuiM

Pwpane · 23-02-2013 10:18PM

lmaopml wrote: »

Pwpane, i'll just post this youtube clip for you that may go some way to at least try to explain the Trinity in orthodox thought.....It's very difficult to describe a 'mystery' tbh and not a little disconcerting to presume we know too much either - actually sometimes I think we can only say what we know about God in loose terms, we do know what God is NOT as revealed in Scripture as opposed to a full explanation as to every aspect of God. It might help...( I've forgot how to embed it, so I'll just post a link )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMI4rA4cuiM

That sounds like you don't actually know, yourself?

Do you think that other Christians and Mormons would be the same - that the leaders of the religion have a definite explanation that the common or garden believers don't understand and cannot pass on?

Peregrinus · 26-02-2013 05:47AM

Whether Mormons are Christians depends on what the word “Christian” means.

Arguing over the definition of words is very much a human activity. The bible is many things, but it’s not a dictionary, so it’s not going to give us a conclusive answer to the question of whether Mormons are “Christians” or not.

And in fact maybe the bible suggests that that’s not a terribly important question. The word “Christian” occurs twice in scripture: once in Acts 11:26 when we are told that Antioch is where the followers of Jesus were first called “Christians”, and once in 1 Peter 4:16, Peter offers consolation to those who “suffer as a Christian”. In both instances, the word “Christian “ is clearly being framed and applied by non-Christians - the Antiochans in the first place, and those who are persecuting the followers of Jesus in the second.

So, originally, it’s not Christians who get to decide who’s Christian or not. And, historically, the followers of Jesus usually got labelled as Christians in the context of being excluded, cut off or even persecuted.

So there’s something unedifying about the sight of believers debating whether the Mormons are Christian or not for the purpose of highlighting the heterodoxy of their beliefs. Most followers of Jesus hold beliefs which, by the standards of other followers of Jesus, are heterodox. This is true in spades for the Mormons. I’m not saying differences in belief are unimportant, but I don’t think our response to them should be to start fretting about the correct label to distinguish them from us.

philologos · 26-02-2013 09:31AM

I couldn't disagree more Peregrinus. In order to protect against false teaching we need to evaluate it in light of God's word. Both Jesus and the apostles warn of this.

Is Mormonism a Christian faith?

Comments