Using force to protect your home against intruders

N3r0 · 20-02-2013 6:42pm #1

How much force can I use if someone enters my property with intentions to harm me and my family? Ive had 3 dead treats against me. yesterday I confronted a person who made treats against my life and had a fight in which I did not assault the person, but restrained them and nearly had my finger bitten all the way off. I just want to no that I can use the force required to make sure no harm comes to me or my family and not be prosecuted.

Victor · 20-02-2013 6:52pm

N3r0 wrote: »

Ive had 3 dead treats against me.

Go to the Garda and get security advice.

N3r0 · 20-02-2013 7:01pm

The Garda are not an option, where I come from we dont invole the garda. Thank you for your fast reply

ssshhh123 · 20-02-2013 7:06pm

Get a hatchet and an air soft pistol if any one enters the house grab these fire air soft pistol at him/them if continue at you start swinging hatchet at them try hit an arm etc. that's my plan anyway. As far as law I'm not sure but just drag them out the house at end.

NoQuarter · 20-02-2013 7:09pm

N3r0 wrote: »

How much force can I use if someone enters my property with intentions to harm me and my family? Ive had 3 dead treats against me. yesterday I confronted a person who made treats against my life and had a fight in which I did not assault the person, but restrained them and nearly had my finger bitten all the way off. I just want to no that I can use the force required to make sure no harm comes to me or my family and not be prosecuted.

The law says you can use reasonable force considering all the circumstances. A jury will decide whats reasonable or not ie, if someone breaks into your house with a spoon as a weapon and you sledgehammer them to death, youre gonna have a bad time.

Grolschevik · 20-02-2013 7:10pm

ssshhh123 wrote: »

Get a hatchet and an air soft pistol if any one enters the house grab these fire air soft pistol at him/them if continue at you start swinging hatchet at them try hit an arm etc. that's my plan anyway. As far as law I'm not sure but just drag them out the house at end.

LMAO. I can only presume humour was the intent.

N3r0 · 20-02-2013 7:16pm

what if they had a knife, could I shoot them in the lower area of the body ?

Dotsie~tmp · 20-02-2013 7:24pm

Justifiable use of forece etc

2.— (1) Notwithstanding the generality of any other enactment or rule of law and subject to subsections (2) and (3), it shall not be an offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another person or the property of another person where—

(a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of committing a criminal act, and

(b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be—

(i) to protect himself or herself or another person present in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or death caused by a criminal act,

(ii) to protect his or her property or the property of another person from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act, or

(iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or assist in effecting, a lawful arrest.

(2) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person uses force against—

(a) a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty,

(b) a person assisting a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty, or

(c) a person lawfully performing a function authorised by or under any enactment.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person using the force engages in conduct or causes a state of affairs for the purpose of using that force to resist or terminate an act of another person acting in response to that conduct or state of affairs, but subsection (1) may apply, if the occasion for the use of force arises only because the person using the force concerned does something he or she may lawfully do, knowing that such an occasion will arise.

(4) It is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held but in considering whether the person using the force honestly held the belief, the court or the jury, as the case may be, shall have regard to the presence or absence of reasonable grounds for the person so believing and all other relevant circumstances.

(5) It is immaterial whether the person using the force had a safe and practicable opportunity to retreat from the dwelling before using the force concerned.

(6) (a) A person shall be regarded as using force in relation to another person if he or she—

(i) applies force in relation to or causes an impact on the body of that other person,

(ii) threatens to apply force in relation to or cause an impact on the body of that other person, or

(iii) detains that other person.

(b) A person shall be regarded as using force in relation to property belonging to another person if he or she—

(i) applies force to that property,

(ii) causes an impact on that property, or

(iii) threatens to apply force to or cause an impact on that property.

(7) The use of force shall not exclude the use of force causing death.

Your first words should be I believed my life and my families lives were in imminent danger. If you have someone on your property tresspassing threatening you and you honenstly feel your life, families life or property is in danger you may use force that results in death though a jury will consider whether the belief was honest. Whether the threat was real or not is IMMATERIAL. Only that you honestly held it is important (a jury cant second guess your heat of the moment decision). You do NOT have to retreat. Stand your ground and arm yourself if you need to. It can be inside or the area just around your house (curtilage)

The jury only consider whether you honestly held the opinion life was in danger. They cant consider whether force was proportional. If someting happens stick to your story that you were scared of being killed and acted to preserve your life, like glue.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-02-2013 7:25pm

N3r0 wrote: »

what if they had a knife, could I shoot them in the lower area of the body ?

Its up to a jury to say if its reasonable or not.

Would you be confident aiming at the lower area of the body or would you be just aiming low and firing, most shooters aim centre mass and hope for the best so you would need to be a better shot.

What area of the house are they in, are they close to your family, have you warned them verbally. Have you fired warning shots.

Its up to a jury and they will probably take the above factors into account.

N3r0 · 20-02-2013 7:49pm

Thanks guys for all the help, I can seek some comfort in the information you have giving me.

3ndahalfof6 · 20-02-2013 7:56pm

NoQuarter wrote: »

The law says you can use reasonable force considering all the circumstances. A jury will decide whats reasonable or not ie, if someone breaks into your house with a spoon as a weapon and you sledgehammer them to death, youre gonna have a bad time.

If someone came into my house with the intent of spooning, it would not end well.

N3r0 · 20-02-2013 7:59pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

If someone came into my house with the intent of spooning, it would not end well.

Hahaha good one

IRLConor · 20-02-2013 8:03pm

Considering this:

N3r0 wrote: »

The Garda are not an option, where I come from we dont invole the garda.

I'm assuming that any firearm you might have is unlicensed. If so, I'd advise against using it if you want to continue keeping the Gardai out of it. There are few quicker ways to involve the Gardai than by discharging a firearm where it's not expected.

mikom · 20-02-2013 8:04pm

NoQuarter wrote: »

if someone breaks into your house with a spoon as a weapon and you sledgehammer them to death, youre gonna have a bad time.

Tell that to Humpty Dumpty.

Procrastastudy · 20-02-2013 10:01pm

OP in no way legal advice but I'd err on the side of 'I had it in the house guard' such as a kitchen knife or hurley stick thing rather than any sort of air gun etc. TBH if the threats are real legal ramifications are probably quite low down the list anyway.

I realise what you're saying about no-one goes to the guards but perhaps some sort of community action might be the way to go. I have no experience in what you're talking about I'm afraid so no advice on how to start something like that.

Zambia · 20-02-2013 10:02pm

Turner · 20-02-2013 11:33pm

N3r0 wrote: »

what if they had a knife, could I shoot them in the lower area of the body ?

If they are running at you with a knife I would be aiming at the center of their torso and fire as many shots needed until they drop.

A knife is as dangerous as any bullet.

Grolschevik · 20-02-2013 11:37pm

Turner wrote: »

If they are running at you with a knife I would be aiming at the center of their torso and fire as many shots needed until they drop.

A knife is as dangerous as any bullet.

In most cases, in Ireland, in realistic terms, that's a bit like saying "I would smite them with a bolt of lightning"...

StompToWork · 20-02-2013 11:50pm

To hell with all that, anyone comes in my house, I'm going Hostel on their asses!! Or, scream and flay my arms around until they go away!

Del2005 · 21-02-2013 2:46am

N3r0 wrote: »

The Garda are not an option, where I come from we dont invole the garda. Thank you for your fast reply

If you don't involve the Gardaí the family of the person breaking in won't either, so it does it really mater what you can legally do to an intruder?

MadsL · 21-02-2013 5:26am

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Your first words should be I believed my life and my families lives were in imminent danger.

If that. Your second words should certainly be "I do not wish to say anything further at this time."

Tom Young · 21-02-2013 6:50am

Oh the scholarship:

Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act, 2011.

Cases:

DPP v Barnes;
DPP v Nally.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/act/pub/0035/sec0002.html#sec2

Justifiable use of force, etc.

2.— (1) Notwithstanding the generality of any other enactment or rule of law and subject to subsections (2) and (3), it shall not be an offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another person or the property of another person where—

(a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of committing a criminal act, and

(b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be—

(i) to protect himself or herself or another person present in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or death caused by a criminal act,

(ii) to protect his or her property or the property of another person from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act, or

(iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or assist in effecting, a lawful arrest.

(2) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person uses force against—

(a) a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty,

(b) a person assisting a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty, or

(c) a person lawfully performing a function authorised by or under any enactment.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person using the force engages in conduct or causes a state of affairs for the purpose of using that force to resist or terminate an act of another person acting in response to that conduct or state of affairs, but subsection (1) may apply, if the occasion for the use of force arises only because the person using the force concerned does something he or she may lawfully do, knowing that such an occasion will arise.

(4) It is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held but in considering whether the person using the force honestly held the belief, the court or the jury, as the case may be, shall have regard to the presence or absence of reasonable grounds for the person so believing and all other relevant circumstances.

(5) It is immaterial whether the person using the force had a safe and practicable opportunity to retreat from the dwelling before using the force concerned.

(6) (a) A person shall be regarded as using force in relation to another person if he or she—

(i) applies force in relation to or causes an impact on the body of that other person,

(ii) threatens to apply force in relation to or cause an impact on the body of that other person, or

(iii) detains that other person.

(b) A person shall be regarded as using force in relation to property belonging to another person if he or she—

(i) applies force to that property,

(ii) causes an impact on that property, or

(iii) threatens to apply force to or cause an impact on that property.

(7) The use of force shall not exclude the use of force causing death.

(8) An act is criminal notwithstanding that the person doing the act—

(a) if charged with an offence in respect of it, would be acquitted on the ground that—

(i) he or she acted under duress,

(ii) his or her act was involuntary,

(iii) he or she was in a state of intoxication, or

(iv) he or she was insane so as not to be responsible according to law for the act,

or

(b) was a person to whom section 52 (1) of the Children Act 2001 applied.

(9) The references in subsection (1)(b) to protecting a person or property from a criminal act include references to protecting the person or property from the continuation of the act, and the reference to preventing the commission of a crime or to effecting, or assisting in effecting, a lawful arrest shall be similarly construed.

(10) In this section—

“intoxication” means being under the intoxicating influence of any alcoholic drink, drug, solvent or any other substance or combination of substances;

“property” means property of a tangible nature, whether real or personal, including money and—

(a) shall be regarded as belonging to any person—

(i) having custody or control of it,

(ii) having in it any proprietary right or interest (not being an equitable interest arising only from an agreement to transfer or grant an interest), or

(iii) having a charge over it,

(b) where property is subject to a trust, the persons to whom the property belongs shall be regarded as including any person having a right to enforce the trust, and

(c) property of a corporation sole shall be regarded as belonging to the corporation notwithstanding a vacancy in the corporation.

(11) For the avoidance of doubt, a reference in this section to property includes, unless the context otherwise requires, a reference to a dwelling.

oldon · 21-02-2013 7:36am

Better to be judged by 12 then to be carried by 6.

Procrastastudy · 21-02-2013 10:22am

2.— (1) Notwithstanding the generality of any other enactment or rule of law and subject to subsections (2) and (3), it shall not be an offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another person or the property of another person where—

(a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of committing a criminal act, and

(b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be—

(i) to protect himself or herself or another person present in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or death caused by a criminal act,

(ii) to protect his or her property or the property of another person from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act, or

(iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or assist in effecting, a lawful arrest.

(2) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person uses force against—

(a) a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty,

(b) a person assisting a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty, or

(c) a person lawfully performing a function authorised by or under any enactment.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person using the force engages in conduct or causes a state of affairs for the purpose of using that force to resist or terminate an act of another person acting in response to that conduct or state of affairs, but subsection (1) may apply, if the occasion for the use of force arises only because the person using the force concerned does something he or she may lawfully do, knowing that such an occasion will arise.

Just to highlight the above in case someone thinks it wise to plant a minefield in the front garden.

Is it me or is that Act incredibly badly drafted? (Just in terms of the words used, notwithstanding other issues.)

Tom Young · 21-02-2013 10:33am

Yeah it's just you

Seriously, no you're right, it's not fantastic.

What's the definition of Burglary.

Procrastastudy · 21-02-2013 10:46am

Tom Young wrote: »

What's the definition of Burglary.

Thankfully for that one I've a very good lecturer! I have to admit if I'd tried to untangle that one myself I probably would have struggled.

Dotsie~tmp · 21-02-2013 5:07pm

Just to highlight the above in case someone thinks it wise to plant a minefield in the front garden.

Is it me or is that Act incredibly badly drafted? (Just in terms of the words used, notwithstanding other issues.)

Its a deliberate fudge, very ambiguous. Like they copped out just short of giving us a proper castle law. Hopefully the DPP will decline to prosecute on the first test but I doubt it. That profession gets no repeat custom from scum off the street or in a grave.

Procrastastudy · 21-02-2013 9:17pm

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Its a deliberate fudge, very ambiguous. Like they copped out just short of giving us a proper castle law. Hopefully the DPP will decline to prosecute on the first test but I doubt it. That profession gets no repeat custom from scum off the street or in a grave.

They copped out of doing anything - the Act did very little to change the existing law.

juice1304 · 21-02-2013 10:17pm

It also says threatening to use force is also considered using force so if you threaten some piece of garbage who has broken into your house you have committed an offence.

Procrastastudy · 21-02-2013 10:35pm

juice1304 wrote: »

It also says threatening to use force is also considered using force so if you threaten some piece of garbage who has broken into your house you have committed an offence.

Threat of force may be considered reasonable even where the use of force would not be. Given the fairly wide latitude given in home defence type situations I'm not sure your statement has much support.

cocobear · 21-02-2013 10:45pm

NoQuarter wrote: »

The law says you can use reasonable force considering all the circumstances. A jury will decide whats reasonable or not ie, if someone breaks into your house with a spoon as a weapon and you sledgehammer them to death, youre gonna have a bad time.

No
I would turn them into a human sieve with my 12 gauge
Take the spoon out of their dead hand, and close their fingers around the biggest carving knife we have, and 10 minutes after they stopped breathing I would dial 999
And the phrase to use consistently and repeatedly is as follows
" I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE"
Jobdone!!!!!!

Using force to protect your home against intruders

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