Is multiculturalism wanted??

21-02-2013 01:05PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

Who is offended? It was plain irritating, not really offensive. Just irritating to walk over a mile, pass about 30 shops and still not find a pack of rashers!

As in 'Fawlty Towers': "I'm a doctor, and I want my sausages!"
or
"I'm Hailee Wailing Microcomputer, and I want my rashers!"

Hark, I hear a sound...... yes, it's the world spinning off its axis.

Clareboy · 21-02-2013 01:11PM

The only people who seem to be in favour of multiculturalism are your typical middle class, middle of the road, middle aged, bleeding heart do-gooders, who are typically in a nice comfortable public service or semi-state job. Multiculturalism - what good is it? Who needs it? You tell me!

dr.bollocko · 21-02-2013 01:13PM

Clareboy wrote: »

The only people who seem to be in favour of multiculturalism are your typical middle class, middle of the road, middle aged, bleeding heart do-gooders, who are typically in a nice comfortable public service or semi-state job. Multiculturalism - what good is it? Who needs it? You tell me!

Thank you for clarifying a bullshit opinion with a bullshit generalisation. Also good to note that you added, non-ironically the phrase "bleeding heart do-gooders" so we all immediately know your opinion is best off ignored on these matters.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 01:17PM

I think the phrase "if you live under my roof, you will obey my rules" is apt here.

Nothing racist there, multiculturalism is fine provided that respect and tolerance is given both ways.

By that I mean that immigrants should not try to impose a 'mini Karachi/Tel Aviv/Dublin/wherever' culture on the locals and similarly the locals should not try to force the immigrants to drop their own cultures and turn into a 'quasi Dub/Londonner/Tel Aviver/whereverer' when they arrive.

That's probably the only way that multiculturalism would properly work IMO.

Blisterman · 21-02-2013 01:24PM

The Irony of the xenophobic attitude many British people have towards immigrants is that most of the top countries of birth of these immigrants, Ireland, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh USA, Australia and Jamaica, were at one point part of the British empire and thus would have been classed as "British".

Most of the anti-immigrant arguments are fairly non-nonsensical, and rooted in prejudice, no matter how hard they try and justify it otherwise.

Firstly the idea that immigrants steal jobs from "native workers", which is in itself a fairly racist assumption that people are somehow more deserving of a job because of where they're from.

Discussions of immigration never seem to mention the 400,000 French people living in London, for example, who are mostly well educated professionals, and thus more likely to "take" good jobs from English people.

Another argument is that "British culture" is being eroded. Which there appears to be no evidence of. British music, sports, art etc are as strong if not stronger in areas with immigration as those without. "British culture" seems to mean to many people, to walk down the street without seeing foreign looking people.

MaxSteele · 21-02-2013 01:27PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

this once myopic, insular, and extremely intolerant society.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

*Yawns*:rolleyes:

*Yawns*:rolleyes:

21-02-2013 01:38PM

Blisterman wrote: »

The Irony of the xenophobic attitude many British people have towards immigrants is that most of the top countries of birth of these immigrants, Ireland, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh USA, Australia and Jamaica, were at one point part of the British empire and thus would have been classed as "British".

You're right there. The British do tend to forget all about that.

Most of the anti-immigrant arguments are fairly non-nonsensical, and rooted in prejudice, no matter how hard they try and justify it otherwise.

Most, yes. Not all.

Firstly the idea that immigrants steal jobs from "native workers", which is in itself a fairly racist assumption that people are somehow more deserving of a job because of where they're from.

I don't think that's racist. I'm living in Spain at the minute and have been on the receiving end of some nasty comments from Spaniards who are angry that a foreigner can walk into a job while they're on the dole. Their argument is silly, because I'm an English teacher, which is a job they could never do anyway, but if I were working in a bar, I'd find that attitude understandable. Surely, when times are this tough, the jobs should go to the locals when possible, not someone who chose to move to another country? I would feel pretty guilty doing waitress or bar work while a lot of the locals are rooting through bins for food.

Discussions of immigration never seem to mention the 400,000 French people living in London, for example, who are mostly well educated professionals, and thus more likely to "take" good jobs from English people.

Are we talking about 'good' jobs, though? There are plenty of jobs in finance, engineering etc, even now. I think this issue is more a working class one. A know a woman who was let go from her cleaning job because her Polish supervisor wanted to hire her Polish friend.

Another argument is that "British culture" is being eroded. Which there appears to be no evidence of. British music, sports, art etc are as strong if not stronger in areas with immigration as those without. "British culture" seems to mean to many people, to walk down the street without seeing foreign looking people.

I think there's plenty of evidence of that. Walking around some areas, you wouldn't even know you were in England. Huge mosques, everyone in burkas, Arab banks, everything written in Arabic. Are you really telling me that British culture hasn't been eroded? Not everywhere, but in plenty of places.

Blisterman · 21-02-2013 01:47PM

Everything written in Arabic? Find me one street on Google streetview where more than a tiny fraction of signs are in any language other than English.

I guarantee there's a much higher proportion of signs in English in most Arab countries.

As for mosques and Arab banks? How does that erode British Culture any more than Catholic and other non-Anglican churches and other foreign banks such as Citi and HSBC?

Yamanoto · 21-02-2013 01:57PM

I think we're in a fortunate position in Ireland, as there's a lot to be learned from the failures of other states to manage immigration successfully. IMO, we should actively consider policies which promote assimilation over multiculturalism.

Assimilation
'Cultural assimilation is a socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture. It is opposed to affirmative philosophy (for example, multiculturalism) which recognizes and works to maintain differences.'

Nice Roger Scruton quote:

'Although religion has been an important part of European identity, it was gradually, under the influence of the Enlightenment, pushed into the background by nationality, and subsequently by the rise of the nation state. And it is thanks to the nation state that we enjoy the freedoms and secular jurisdictions that are so attractive to immigrants – and especially to those immigrants who define their pre-political membership in religious, rather than national, terms. For national loyalty is a form of neighbourliness: it is loyalty to a shared home and to the people who have built it. It makes no specific demands of a religious or ideological nature, and is content with a common obedience to a secular rule of law, and a common sense of belonging to the land, its customs and its habits of peaceful coexistence.'

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1126

twinQuins · 21-02-2013 02:01PM

Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware there was a 'right' way to be Irish.

Please do outline what this is so all of us who haven't been adhering to proper cultural protocols can rectify the situation.

Death and Taxes · 21-02-2013 02:01PM

Clareboy wrote: »

The only people who seem to be in favour of multiculturalism are your typical middle class, middle of the road, middle aged, bleeding heart do-gooders, who are typically in a nice comfortable public service or semi-state job. Multiculturalism - what good is it? Who needs it? You tell me!

One could similarly argue that the only ones opposed to it are the small minded, ignorant, intolerant types with a limited mentality and a probably well founded inferiority complex.

21-02-2013 02:19PM

Blisterman wrote: »

Everything written in Arabic? Find me one street on Google streetview where more than a tiny fraction of signs are in any language other than English.

I guarantee there's a much higher proportion of signs in English in most Arab countries.

As for mosques and Arab banks? How does that erode British Culture any more than Catholic and other non-Anglican churches and other foreign banks such as Citi and HSBC?

I've better things to be doing, but I recall streets around Whitechapel where almost everything is in Arabic. And these are main roads.

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse, but imagine a British person moves into one of those areas in East London that are almost completely Muslim. There are no churches in the neighbourhood, only mosques. You get woken up by calls to prayer. There's nowhere to get the components of a traditional English breakfast. All the cafes are halal. Everyone around you is speaking Arabic. The shopkeepers barely speak English. You walk down the street in a miniskirt and flip flops and get dirty looks.

What is British about any of this? I've been in areas where I really did feel like an unwelcome intruder because I'm a non-Muslim. If it wasn't for the crappy weather, it could have been Marrakech or Baghdad. I'm quite interested in Muslim culture and go to these places for my holidays, so I'm not some EDL bigot. I just don't think a lot of England feels like England anymore.

Death and Taxes · 21-02-2013 02:24PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

I've better things to be doing, but I recall streets around Whitechapel where almost everything is in Arabic. And these are main roads.

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse, but imagine a British person moves into one of those areas in East London that are almost completely Muslim. There are no churches in the neighbourhood, only mosques. You get woken up by calls to prayer. There's nowhere to get the components of a traditional English breakfast. All the cafes are halal. Everyone around you is speaking Arabic. The shopkeepers barely speak English. You walk down the street in a miniskirt and flip flops and get dirty looks.

What is British about any of this? I've been in areas where I really did feel like an unwelcome intruder because I'm a non-Muslim. If it wasn't for the crappy weather, it could have been Marrakech or Baghdad. I'm quite interested in Muslim culture and go to these places for my holidays, so I'm not some EDL bigot. I just don't think a lot of England feels like England anymore.

So according your post one cant be British and be Muslim, hilarious, I just have to laugh at that pityful assertion.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 02:26PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

So according your post one cant be British and be Muslim, hilarious, I just have to laugh at that pityful assertion.

I don't think that was implied at all. Perhaps one can't be British and hardline Muslim though seeing as Britain is a fairly secular society and all that...

21-02-2013 02:26PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

So according your post one cant be British and be Muslim, hilarious, I just have to laugh at that pityful assertion.

How did you get that, exactly?

It's not that hard to understand. You know traditional British culture? The stuff the tourists come over to see? Well, you don't see much of it in most of London now. Was it that hard to get?

Death and Taxes · 21-02-2013 02:36PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

How did you get that, exactly?

It's not that hard to understand. You know traditional British culture? The stuff the tourists come over to see? Well, you don't see much of it in most of London now. Was it that hard to get?

Wot ya mean me ol cocker, like pearly kings stuffin their boatraces with jellied eels and tellin porkies!
You need to grow up, your assertion in your previous posts that one is either muslim or British is really foolish and highly inaccurate.

looksee · 21-02-2013 02:40PM

Blisterman wrote: »

Everything written in Arabic? Find me one street on Google streetview where more than a tiny fraction of signs are in any language other than English.

I guarantee there's a much higher proportion of signs in English in most Arab countries.

As for mosques and Arab banks? How does that erode British Culture any more than Catholic and other non-Anglican churches and other foreign banks such as Citi and HSBC?

Not written in arabic particularly as the residents are Indian and Pakistani for the most part, but have a look along this road http://goo.gl/maps/Y6b50

and this is what you get if you look for Mosques, Leicester http://goo.gl/maps/pxrmE

P_1 · 21-02-2013 02:41PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wot ya mean me ol cocker, like pearly kings stuffin their boatraces with jellied eels and telly porkies!
You need to grow up, your assertion in your previous posts that one is either muslim or British is really foolish and highly inaccurate.

Now that doesn't make any sense really.

Moderate muslims/christians/jews/whatevers who keep their faith private and don't aggressively try to convert the locals = ok
Hardline muslims/christians/jews/whatevers who don't keep their faith private and aggressively try to convert the locals = not ok

Is that so hard to grasp?

Yamanoto · 21-02-2013 02:42PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

I recall streets around Whitechapel where almost everything is in Arabic...Everyone around you is speaking Arabic.

Folks aren't speaking Arabic in Whitechapel - Bangladeshi's account for 52% of the ward.

It's Bengali or Urdu to a far lesser extent.

Blisterman · 21-02-2013 02:43PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

I've better things to be doing, but I recall streets around Whitechapel where almost everything is in Arabic. And these are main roads.

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse, but imagine a British person moves into one of those areas in East London that are almost completely Muslim. There are no churches in the neighbourhood, only mosques. You get woken up by calls to prayer. There's nowhere to get the components of a traditional English breakfast. All the cafes are halal. Everyone around you is speaking Arabic. The shopkeepers barely speak English. You walk down the street in a miniskirt and flip flops and get dirty looks.

What is British about any of this? I've been in areas where I really did feel like an unwelcome intruder because I'm a non-Muslim. If it wasn't for the crappy weather, it could have been Marrakech or Baghdad. I'm quite interested in Muslim culture and go to these places for my holidays, so I'm not some EDL bigot. I just don't think a lot of England feels like England anymore.

Talk about exaggeration. No churches? Nowhere to get rashers and sausages? Come off it. You're never more than 10-15 minutes walk from a Tesco or Sainsburys in London.

As for speaking Arabic, I assume now that you live in Spain, you never speak English to anyone?

Anyway, if you're not interested in Muslim culture, that's fine. Nobody's forcing you to partake in it.

And as for these ridiculous scare stories that Britain is become Islamified, look at the census results. For every new Muslim (who are mostly new immigrants), there are five new atheists. It's pretty obvious which way the trends are going.

21-02-2013 02:46PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wot ya mean me ol cocker, like pearly kings stuffin their boatraces with jellied eels and telly porkies!
You need to grow up, your assertion in your previous posts that one is either muslim or British is really foolish and highly inaccurate.

Please point out where I said you can't be Muslim AND British. I have plenty of friends who are exactly that.

Why are you so arrogant that you're completely dismissing my point of view? I grew up in England, went to a primary school near Manchester that was about 40% Muslim and have had Muslim friends all my life. I lived in a very Muslim area of London for a year and taught voluntary adult education classes to the local residents, most of whom were Somali. I then lived in another predominantly Muslim area for another 3 years. I think I might know a bit more about Muslims in Britain than the average Irish person, in fairness.

I don't know how you managed to misinterpret my post to that extent (reading what you want to read, no doubt) but my point is that British culture HAS ALREADY BEEN eroded in a lot of areas. If you walk down the street and feel like you could be in the Middle East, then how hasn't that affected British culture? Where there used to be greasy spoons and pubs, there are now shisha cafes and halal butchers.

I taught English to foreign students in London and almost all of them complained that there was hardly any British culture left. You might think it's funny to make jokes about cockneys and jellied eels, but that's British culture. That's what tourists and visitors want to see. As one of my students put it, 'If I wanted to see Mosques and speak Arabic, I'd have stayed at home'. I'm not saying Muslims shouldn't live in England. I'm not saying I don't like Muslims or other immigrants. I'm saying that if people really believe British culture hasn't been eroded, they're deluded.

21-02-2013 02:49PM

Blisterman wrote: »

Talk about exaggeration. No churches? Nowhere to get rashers and sausages? Come off it. You're never more than 10-15 minutes walk from a Tesco or Sainsburys in London.

As for speaking Arabic, I assume now that you live in Spain, you never speak English to anyone?

Anyway, if you're not interested in Muslim culture, that's fine. Nobody's forcing you to partake in it.

And as for these ridiculous scare stories that Britain is become Islamified, look at the census results. For every new Muslim (who are mostly new immigrants), there are five new atheists. It's pretty obvious which way the trends are going.

What on earth is your point? I'm saying that in my opinion, British culture has definitely been eroded, at least to some extent. What has that got to do with Spain? What has that got to do with how interested I am in Muslim culture? Absolutely nothing.

Blisterman · 21-02-2013 02:52PM

looksee wrote: »

Not written in arabic particularly as the residents are Indian and Pakistani for the most part, but have a look along this road http://goo.gl/maps/Y6b50

and this is what you get if you look for Mosques, Leicester http://goo.gl/maps/pxrmE

I used to live in Leicester and Belgrave road's essentially their Indian equivalent of Chinatown. It's a bit of a tourist attraction. And even looking at that, very few of the signs there are in any language other than English. And pretty much everyone there speaks English in day to day conversation.

hooradiation · 21-02-2013 02:52PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

British culture has definitely been eroded, at least to some extent.

Cultures are not static.
Complaining that a culture is changing (or being eroded, if you'd like to be dramatic) is complaining that life is carrying on as it always has.

twinQuins · 21-02-2013 02:54PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Folks aren't speaking Arabic in Whitechapel - Bangladeshi's account for 52% of the ward.

It's Bengali or Urdu to a far lesser extent.

So? Are people not free to speak what language they want to?

Death and Taxes · 21-02-2013 02:57PM

P_1 wrote: »

Now that doesn't make any sense really.

Moderate muslims/christians/jews/whatevers who keep their faith private and don't aggressively try to convert the locals = ok
Hardline muslims/christians/jews/whatevers who don't keep their faith private and aggressively try to convert the locals = not ok

Is that so hard to grasp?

You dont answer his point that British and Muslim are seperate, and that BRitish people dont feel at home in Muslim areas.
There are no shortage of people who self declare as British and Muslim.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 02:57PM

twinQuins wrote: »

So? Are people not free to speak what language they want to?

Well that's the question. Personally I would find it rude (for lack of a better term) not to try to assimilate to your new culture.

For example, would you move to Paris and expect to speak English every day? Non you would at least have the courtesy to attempt to at least string a couple of phrases together en Francais.

Similarly, is it racist to expect a French person who moved to Dublin to attempt to speak to you in English?

Blisterman · 21-02-2013 02:58PM

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

What on earth is your point? I'm saying that in my opinion, British culture has definitely been eroded, at least to some extent. What has that got to do with Spain? What has that got to do with how interested I am in Muslim culture? Absolutely nothing.

You were complaining about how people who've immigrated to London speak their native tongue to each other. My point was that you can't exactly blame them for that. I'd be very surprised if you never spoke English to anyone when you're in Spain.

And as for traditional English culture, such as jellied eels and pies. Sure there's less of them around in London then there were in the past, but I guarantee that's the case even in places without immigration. People's tastes change.

CruelCoin · 21-02-2013 02:59PM

woodoo wrote: »

I was reading through a piece on white flight from London on the BBC and was struck by the feedback. Much of the feedback is at odds with the writer. So many people seem to against the idea of multiculturalism, mass immigration and ghettoisation and no longer feel at home in some of their larger cities. Are they being unreasonable? racist? or do they have a genuine grievance that today's hyper-PC society doesn't allow them voice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

David Cameron, Angela Merkel and Sarkozy have all recently cast doubt on multiculturalism. Do we have anything to learn from other European countries that have already seen major change or should we continue on with the project and stifle any decent as racist or hysterical?

I don't think people have a problem with the people coming to live here or in the UK.
I think they have a problem with what they bring with them. People immigrating tend to be poor, uneducated, etc (i said tend, generalisation nazis please **** off). Over time they tend to settle in areas which become ghettos, almost "the projects" like.

I would love to see a solution whereby immigration was encouraged, but ghettoism was not.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 03:01PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You dont answer his point that British and Muslim are seperate, and that BRitish people dont feel at home in Muslim areas.
There are no shortage of people who self declare as British and Muslim.

The point is that the majority of people can declare as British and Muslim, some overstep the mark though.

It's all about cultural context.

Would you expect to act as you would in Dublin (enjoy the occasional pint/rasher sambo or go to mass etc) in Dubai for example?

Is it racist of the people of Dubai to expect you to respect their cultural norms? What's so different between that and the people of London expecting immigrants to respect their own cultural norms.

Is multiculturalism wanted??

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