Is multiculturalism wanted??

southsiderosie · 21-02-2013 12:27AM

P_1 wrote: »

Question, is it racist or xenophobic of me, as an Irish person to want to:
a) Be able to speak my native language (English) on my main street
b) Be able to buy whatever food products I want in my local shop
c) Be able to go into a pub and have a pint
d) Be able to walk into a betting shop and have a punt
e) Not hear people shouting at women to 'cover up'
in Dublin?

Now, is it racist or xenophobic of an English person to want to:
a) Be able to speak their native language (English) on their main street
b) Be able to buy whatever food products they want in their local shop
c) Be able to go into a pub and have a pint
d) Be able to walk into a betting shop and have a punt
e) Not hear people shouting at women to 'cover up'
in London?

I think that is the crux of the matter that a good proportion of the English population of London have issue with

The language issue is silly. Ireland makes a fortune off of being a center for learning English as a second language. And who gives a crap what language people use amongst themselves?

As for local shops: again, this is a private issue. Nobody is entitled to buy whatever they want in their local shop. Hell, I wish that my local shop at home sold grass-fed beef, but that isn't my right.

Since when has gambling and drinking become illegal in Ireland or the UK?

I would agree that the 'cover up' issue is problematic, but as I said above, I see this as a religious conservative issue rather than an immigration issue per se. Regardless of origin, one thing religious conservatives have in common is a deep desire to control women's bodies.

Nodin · 21-02-2013 12:29AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

I never claimed that they did. France and Germany should have paid repatriation money to its post ww2 guest workers. They assumed that they would leave off their own back.

All these problems could have been easily avoided.

You'll find there were North Africans in France long before WWII. And sub-saharan Africans too, for that matter.

And yes, you did imply they did - note the bolded section.

Explain then why Marie La Pen polled so well, why the French national team is divided amongst ethnic lines, why the ethnic French have stopped supporting the multiracial nation team and please explain the growth of the newly formed group called generation identitaire.

If thats your best example of a multicultural success story, then count me out.

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:31AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Oh, and I have linked to the CSO 2011 census figures. If you have some alternative data, then please post it. Otherwise, stop making things up.

IRELAND IS becoming a more mixed country with the latest census data showing that those born outside the State account for some 17 per cent of the population.

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

The Central Statistics Office said the majority of those arriving came in the early part of the five-year period. The pace of immigration slowed as economic activity cooled from 2008 onwards.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

There you go.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 12:31AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

The language issue is silly. Ireland makes a fortune off of being a center for learning English as a second language. And who gives a crap what language people use amongst themselves?

As for local shops: again, this is a private issue. Nobody is entitled to buy whatever they want in their local shop. Hell, I wish that my local shop at home sold grass-fed beef, but that isn't my right.

Since when has gambling and drinking become illegal in Ireland or the UK?

I would agree that the 'cover up' issue is problematic, but as I said above, I see this as a religious conservative issue rather than an immigration issue per se. Regardless of origin, one thing religious conservatives have in common is a deep desire to control women's bodies.

I don't think it's an immigration issue myself either, rather a cultural one. What I mean by that is that some immigrants to the UK seem to be aggressively imposing the culture of their origin societies on the population of their destination societies and the 'natives' are getting (understandably) a tad unsettled over it.

Johro · 21-02-2013 12:31AM

P_1 wrote: »

What I'm saying is that there is anecdotal evidence of people not being able to do those things in parts of London, hence the 'white flight'.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect to be able to do those things in Karachi or Tel Aviv.

Ah. So there is anecdotal evidence of this being a problem for some people in London. So where in Ireland is this?

P_1 · 21-02-2013 12:33AM

Johro wrote: »

Ah. So there is anecdotal evidence of this being a problem for some people in London. So where in Ireland is this?

I was offering a hypothetical comparison to help illustrate the reason behind the general attitude of some in the UK and to explain how it was not being racist or xenophobic.

Nodin · 21-02-2013 12:34AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

IRELAND IS becoming a more mixed country with the latest census data showing that those born outside the State account for some 17 per cent of the population.

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

The Central Statistics Office said the majority of those arriving came in the early part of the five-year period. The pace of immigration slowed as economic activity cooled from 2008 onwards.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

There you go.

The overwhelming majority of those are from within the EU and are thus entitled to free movement. Seeing as we aren't typing in Polish at the mo, it doesn't really do much to bear out your seemingly xenophobic attitude.

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:35AM

Johro wrote: »

If you're anti-immigration, why are you only anti non EU immigration??
This issue of multiculturalism is only becoming more confused on here really.
Thinly veiled xenophobe thread.

You claimed that it was only a few interweb racists who opposed mass immigration. :pac:

Anti-immigration sentiment was particularly strong in Europe, with over 65% of Spaniards, Italians and British polled strongly or partly agreeing that "there are too many immigrants in our country".

Sweden and Poland were the only European countries surveyed that did not have majorities who considered immigration to have a negative impact. In no country did a majority consider immigration to have been beneficial.

Majorities in most EU countries surveyed agreed that immigration had made it more difficult for citizens to find employment and "placed too much pressure on public services," such as health care and education.

Anti-immigrant sentiment has put significant strain on freedom of movement within the EU. On 11 August, the European Commission approved Spain's measures to exclude Romanian workers from its labour market. The Spanish unemployment rate is by far the highest in the EU at 21%. Bulgaria and Romania recently saw their accession to the Schengen border-free area postponed.

The Dutch and Danish governments, whose parliamentary majorities are dependent on the support of far-right anti-immigrant parties, have pushed particularly hard to limit immigration. In the case of Denmark, the unilateral imposition of new border controls was harshly criticised by the European Commission and Germany.

http://www.euractiv.com/socialeurope/europeans-overwhelmingly-immigra-news-507074

Lou.m · 21-02-2013 12:36AM

P_1 wrote: »

Question, is it racist or xenophobic of me, as an Irish person to want to:
a) Be able to speak my native language (English) on my main street
b) Be able to buy whatever food products I want in my local shop
c) Be able to go into a pub and have a pint
d) Be able to walk into a betting shop and have a punt
e) Not hear people shouting at women to 'cover up'
in Dublin?

Now, is it racist or xenophobic of an English person to want to:
a) Be able to speak their native language (English) on their main street
b) Be able to buy whatever food products they want in their local shop
c) Be able to go into a pub and have a pint
d) Be able to walk into a betting shop and have a punt
e) Not hear people shouting at women to 'cover up'
in London?

I think that is the crux of the matter that a good proportion of the English population of London have issue with

Never have I witnessed any of this when being in London or in other places I have been in the UK or Ireland.

Well not by immigrants.

Non Irish people will repress you too.

Many Irish people will insist you learn Irish.....despite it not being my first tongue. Many Irish people are against gambling and women going around in short skirts as you will have learnt from the Magdalene report.If anything we have greater choice of food products in this country now.

I think it is racist to fear these things when they are not here. And stop talking about Britain. We have a different immigration policy and we have not the same history as them. They have huge ties with other nations....they colonised everywhere.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 12:36AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

IRELAND IS becoming a more mixed country with the latest census data showing that those born outside the State account for some 17 per cent of the population.

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

The Central Statistics Office said the majority of those arriving came in the early part of the five-year period. The pace of immigration slowed as economic activity cooled from 2008 onwards.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

There you go.

It shouldn't matter where somebody comes from provided that they respect the local culture and don't try to intimidate the native population to impose their own culture on them.

southsiderosie · 21-02-2013 12:37AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

IRELAND IS becoming a more mixed country with the latest census data showing that those born outside the State account for some 17 per cent of the population.

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

The Central Statistics Office said the majority of those arriving came in the early part of the five-year period. The pace of immigration slowed as economic activity cooled from 2008 onwards.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

There you go.

Those articles are quoting two different figures: the foreign-born numbers are the 700,000+, but the articles are then quoting the non-Irish nationals figures for their group breakdown, which are separate. The CSO analysis uses the non-Irish nationals figures, which are considered more accurate in Ireland's case because there are many 'foreign-born' Irish nationals with dual citizenship.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 12:37AM

Lou.m wrote: »

Never have I witnessed any of this when being in London or in other places I have been in the UK or Ireland.

Well not by immigrants.

Non Irish people will repress you too.

Many Irish people will insist you learn Irish.....despite it not being my first tongue. Many Irish people are against gambling and women going around in short skirts as you will have learnt from the Magdalene report.If anything we have greater choice of food products in this country now.

I think it is racist to fear these things when they are not here. And stop talking about Britain. We have a different immigration policy and we have not the same history as them. They have huge ties with other nations....they colonised everywhere.

I thought we were discussing the BBC article which was written about people in Britain, or have I missed a memo somewhere

Johro · 21-02-2013 12:40AM

P_1 wrote: »

I was offering a hypothetical comparison to help illustrate the reason behind the general attitude of some in the UK and to explain how it was not being racist or xenophobic.

Okay fair enough, excuse the sarcasm, it's a bad habit, but what you're talking about is hardly representative.

P_1 · 21-02-2013 12:41AM

Johro wrote: »

Okay fair enough, excuse the sarcasm, it's a bad habit, but what you're talking about is hardly representative.

Oh I know that, but in essence its a reasonably balanced summary/example of the 'fear' that some people would have.

No worries about sarcasm, it can be bloody difficult to come across the way you intend on message boards sometimes

VEN · 21-02-2013 12:43AM

Terrontress wrote: »

Are additional workers from areas with excess supply wanted during labour shortages wanted? Yes.

Should those who have come here and worked have the same rights ad Irish people who have contributed an equal amount to the economy? Yes.
.

ah yea sure we have such an awful shortage of 'skilled' taxi drivers so yes we need more, bring them on. give them their rights too but only once they have the correct work visa to drive said taxi, bring them on. let them set up shop to retail or sell 'more' food once they have 300k in their bank account and they must create employment for at least 2 Irish or EEA/Swiss nationals, bring them on.

Lou.m · 21-02-2013 12:43AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

You claimed that it was only a few interweb racists who opposed mass immigration. :pac:

Anti-immigration sentiment was particularly strong in Europe, with over 65% of Spaniards, Italians and British polled strongly or partly agreeing that "there are too many immigrants in our country".

Sweden and Poland were the only European countries surveyed that did not have majorities who considered immigration to have a negative impact. In no country did a majority consider immigration to have been beneficial.

Majorities in most EU countries surveyed agreed that immigration had made it more difficult for citizens to find employment and "placed too much pressure on public services," such as health care and education.

Anti-immigrant sentiment has put significant strain on freedom of movement within the EU. On 11 August, the European Commission approved Spain's measures to exclude Romanian workers from its labour market. The Spanish unemployment rate is by far the highest in the EU at 21%. Bulgaria and Romania recently saw their accession to the Schengen border-free area postponed.

The Dutch and Danish governments, whose parliamentary majorities are dependent on the support of far-right anti-immigrant parties, have pushed particularly hard to limit immigration. In the case of Denmark, the unilateral imposition of new border controls was harshly criticised by the European Commission and Germany.

http://www.euractiv.com/socialeurope/europeans-overwhelmingly-immigra-news-507074

This is weird and non sensical..you worry anti immigration sentiment in the EU is getting in the way of EU immigration???

Anti-immigration sentiment was particularly strong in Europe, with over 65% of Spaniards, Italians and British polled strongly or partly agreeing that "there are too many immigrants in our country".

They consider Italians and Irish to be immigrants....

It is as if you have this grand EU project..of 'No Homers'.

Are you for immigration or against it?

So you don't mind immigration from EU countries but not outside??? Is that it??

A weird EU project endangered by non EU immigration? Because that is what you are saying non Eu immigration is hurting the rights of EU citizens to immigrate?? That makes no sense.

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:43AM

P_1 wrote: »

It shouldn't matter where somebody comes from provided that they respect the local culture and don't try to intimidate the native population to impose their own culture on them.

I think both correlate. Some ethnic groups out perform other groups of emigrants.

If you were a denizen of Perth atm, would you prefer another 1,000 Irish or 1,000 Indian immigrants?

You would go for the Indian chaps.

Johro · 21-02-2013 12:44AM

Lou.m wrote: »

Never have I witnessed any of this when being in London or in other places I have been in the UK or Ireland.

Well not by immigrants.

Non Irish people will repress you too.

Many Irish people will insist you learn Irish.....despite it not being my first tongue. Many Irish people are against gambling and women going around in short skirts as you will have learnt from the Magdalene report.

Many Irish will insist you drink. ''You're not having one?? Ah go on.. Here I'll buy ya a pint.. Ah sure why not.. Jaysis sure you'll have a drink...
HAVE A FUCKIN DRINK YA WEIRDO!!!!''

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:47AM

Lou.m wrote: »

This is weird That makes no sense.

Please stop responding to me. You have called for the cleansing of my race :eek:

There is nothing left to be said.

Johro · 21-02-2013 12:49AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Please stop responding to me. You have called for the cleansing of my race :eek:

There is nothing left to be said.

Hardly. She had a sense of humour and you took it seriously.

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:53AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

which are considered more accurate in Ireland's case because there are many 'foreign-born' Irish nationals with dual citizenship.

Still foreign born. If every immigrant obtained Irish papers tomorrow - would that mean Ireland has/had no immigrant population?

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 12:56AM

Johro wrote: »

Hardly. He had a sense of humour and you took it seriously.

She.

I dont think that it was a joke. Self hatred is not an usual trait. Afro-Americans call those who suffer from it 'uncle Toms'.

Lou.m · 21-02-2013 12:56AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Please stop responding to me. You have called for the cleansing of my race :eek:

There is nothing left to be said.

No...even taken seriously they would be a mix of your race and a part of it.

And it is not your race...I am Irish too.

I am a girl by the way to the poster above.

Just sayin.

I was having a laugh..But seriously intermarriage on a large scale is not cleansing....blending ..creating a divine loving cocktail;)

It is shame you see it in such violent terms though. It does betray something sinister about you.

I hope you are joking.

Is that really what you think of interacial marriage??? I mean interracial people are a part of your race too...or half apart of it.

Meh there is only one human race....:)

RADIUS · 21-02-2013 12:57AM

Ireland has always been multicultural.

Lou.m · 21-02-2013 12:59AM

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Still foreign born. If every immigrant obtained Irish papers tomorrow - would that mean Ireland has/had no immigrant population?

Yeah.

They are Irish citizens! In is in our anthem ..some have come from a land beyond the wave.

Dev was half Latino and born in America!

Johro · 21-02-2013 01:00AM

Lou.m wrote: »

I am a girl by the way to the poster above. Just sayin.

:eek:
My apologies for assuming you were anything inferior to female.

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 01:02AM

Lou.m wrote: »

I was having a laugh..But seriously intermarriage on a large scale is not cleansing....blending ..creating a divine loving cocktail;)

It is shame you see it in such violent terms though. It does betray something sinister about you.

It is if its forced and it can have genocidal tendencies if people are specifically reproducing with other races because they went babies with certain features etc.

Which was your rational.

:mad:

Johro · 21-02-2013 01:03AM

F#ckin hell...

SirTallaghtban · 21-02-2013 01:04AM

Lou.m wrote: »

Yeah. They are Irish citizens! In is in our anthem ..some have come from a land beyond the wave.

Dev was half Latino and born in America!

That refers to the diaspora.

And Dev's da was as much a Cuban/Spanish sailor as mine was.

Lou.m · 21-02-2013 01:04AM

Johro wrote: »

:eek:
My apologies for assuming you were anything inferior to female.

:eek::p I love you...charmer:P;):p:p

Is multiculturalism wanted??

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