Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Godge · 19-02-2013 11:40AM

noodler wrote: »

Employment in Ireland is estimated to have fallen by 0.5% in 2012 (CBI latest QEB)

According to the latest QNHS from the CSO you rightly quote

Two points:

1) The first is the very obvious fact that we know there was a massive PS voluntary redundancy scheme which finished in Q1 2012. This would account for nearly halve of the PS jobs fall between Q3 2011 and Q3 2012.

My point here is obvious - this quarter's figures is not at all reflective of the trend and is clearly swayed by the clamour of PS workers leaving to maintain their preferential pension status.

2) The second point is that the CSO figures here state that PS workforce is 377,900 at the end of Q3. This is massively different to the DoF figures because the CSO report on a headcount basis and the DoF report on full-time equivalent basis.

I had a point on this that perhaps the CSO figures might be seem worse if more part-timers were leaving etc but I haven't enough to continue with it so I should have deleted it (I'll leave it in just to point out again the difference between the way the CSO and DoF report PS numbers)..

Even the Central Bank makes the point in its latest quarterly bulletin that further public sector job losses will be offset by private sector job gains in 2013.

The most recent estimated figures they have for 2012 is employment loss of 0.7%. Whether you take the Central Bank, DoF or CSO figures, there is an unmistakeable trend. Job losses in the public sector are now greater than in the private sector and private sector employment may actually be increasing. If examined in percentage terms, the difference is even more stark given the relatively low weighting of the public sector.

noodler wrote: »

I cannot agree with this at all, not even a little bit.

Pay increases haven't stopped once during the crisis, even the pension levy and 2010 pay cuts would have been outdone by incremental pay rises for the majority of staff below 40K (at least) at this stage.

How on earth could you claim that this, along with the retention of Define Benefit pension schemes could mean a PS worker has suffered more than those who are unemployed or an a salary below the industrial wage?

1) Again, and I'll use the CSO Earnings and Labour Cost statistics to make the point about averages but you need to be really careful that you do not equate the clearly high skilled and high paying job you are in to the situation the majority of the private sector would find themselves in. All Public Sector workers have received pay rises (most more than one I would wager depending on scale) since the crisis.

2) It isn't a fair or truthful argument to point at some CEOs or management at highly successful companies and their earnings and then use it as some sort of argument against wage restraint in the public sector.

One clarification in response. It is not true to suggest that all public sector workers have received pay rises since 2008 as many public servants were at the maxima of their scales.

I remember reading a PQ answer from a couple of years ago where the Minister said that something like 60% of teachers were at the top of the scale.

Neither am I suggesting that public servants have suffered more than those recently unemployed or well below the average industrial wage. However, those who were on social welfare already have seen their benefits relatively untouched (pensioners completely untouched) and many of those below the average industrial wage have been getting pay rises in the private sector so relative to where they started off, the point is true. If you believe in a system that rewards work, there is room for concern. The "average industrial wage" is a misnomer as it no longer has any resemblance to average earnings in the private sector or among the self-employed.

Godge · 19-02-2013 11:52AM

not yet wrote: »

As mentioned in a post above, most people agree that some PS workers are overpaid, but that is at the very top end of 100k-200k.

You see, I don't necessarily agree that only the higher-paid are overpaid.

Take the example of a Special Needs Assistant.

Works the school year, works the school week, finishes at 2 every day, christmas, summer and easter off every year, minimum qualification of the junior cert.

The new entrant scale (includes 2010 pay cut as well as 10% new entrant pay cut) runs from €20,869 to €33,605.

Compared to a nurse (new starting salary €22,000) or a guard, who are required to be available 24/7, this is well-paid, probably over-paid.

noodler · 19-02-2013 12:09PM

Godge wrote: »

Even the Central Bank makes the point in its latest quarterly bulletin that further public sector job losses will be offset by private sector job gains in 2013.

The most recent estimated figures they have for 2012 is employment loss of 0.7%. Whether you take the Central Bank, DoF or CSO figures, there is an unmistakeable trend. Job losses in the public sector are now greater than in the private sector and private sector employment may actually be increasing. If examined in percentage terms, the difference is even more stark given the relatively low weighting of the public sector.

My main problem is that your are cherrypicking your timeframe.

You find one quarter where the private sector is finally, after 6 years of falls, shows sign of mere stabilisation and you then try to compare it favourably to a period when the Government's single largest voluntary redundancy scheme finished - that will skew the figures.

The other point of course is that there is a difference to workers being laid off in the private sector and retiring early in the Public Sector to maintain their superior benefits.

Godge wrote: »

One clarification in response. It is not true to suggest that all public sector workers have received pay rises since 2008 as many public servants were at the maxima of their scales.I remember reading a PQ answer from a couple of years ago where the Minister said that something like 60% of teachers were at the top of the scale.

Well point taken. Although if you are at the top of your scale as a teacher, then you are earning in excess of 50K if I understand correctly how their scales work.

I do recognise that one of the lowest paid position, say clerical officer, it is possible you have somebody stuck at the end of their scale at 35K but I think it is important to appreciate that if you are at the top of your scale, and hence unable to qualify for an increment, then you are already earning well above the average industrial wage.

Godge wrote: »

Neither am I suggesting that public servants have suffered more than those recently unemployed or well below the average industrial wage. However, those who were on social welfare already have seen their benefits relatively untouched (pensioners completely untouched) and many of those below the average industrial wage have been getting pay rises in the private sector so relative to where they started off, the point is true. If you believe in a system that rewards work, there is room for concern. The "average industrial wage" is a misnomer as it no longer has any resemblance to average earnings in the private sector or among the self-employed.

Untrue, whilst the Public sector have has incremental pay rises that more than take inflation into account, those on unemployment benefit took a near 10% cut in the Budget 2012 (or was it 2011?) as well as seeing these payments frozen despite thre return of inflation over the last couple of years.

Pensioners have taken some hits in fairness. Obviously the State pension doesn't allow much room for negotiation if that is the sole means of income but there have been a number of means tested measures introduced.

There was also a levy on existing public sector pensioners.

ardmacha · 19-02-2013 03:26PM

The first is the very obvious fact that we know there was a massive PS voluntary redundancy scheme which finished in Q1 2012.

This is only partly true, apart from health there have been few redundancies in the PS.

whilst the Public sector have has incremental pay rises that more than take inflation into account, those on unemployment benefit took a near 10% cut in the Budget 2012 (or was it 2011?)

Some people in the PS got increments. Just as some on unemployment benefit received higher rates when they reached 25 years of age. Neither of these have to do with inflation.

However, inflation is relevant in the present thread, real paycuts for all public servants are proposed as nominal wages will not increase until 2016 and there will be inflation of 5-7% by then. The present debate is about objection to nominal paycuts as well as real ones

noodler · 19-02-2013 04:13PM

ardmacha wrote: »

This is only partly true, apart from health there have been few redundancies in the PS.

Fine, early retirement scheme.

ardmacha wrote: »

Some people in the PS got increments. Just as some on unemployment benefit received higher rates when they reached 25 years of age.

What the kind of comparison is that? What on earth are you trying to say here exactly?

ardmacha wrote: »

Neither of these have to do with inflation.

??

I will say it in different words for you - the purchasing power of public sector workers has increased since the pay cuts, that of the unemployed has fallen.

ardmacha wrote: »

However, inflation is relevant in the present thread, real paycuts for all public servants are proposed as nominal wages will not increase until 2016 and there will be inflation of 5-7% by then. The present debate is about objection to nominal paycuts as well as real ones

Nominal public sector wages have increased every year since the crisis, even gross of the pay cuts in 2010, and will continue to do so unless increments are halted across the board in the CPII Deal, so what is your basis for saying nominal wages will not increase

Idbatterim · 19-02-2013 04:37PM

how much would taxing the lump sum on retirement or eliminating totally save?

fall · 19-02-2013 05:02PM

noodler wrote: »

Fine, early retirement scheme.

What the kind of comparison is that? What on earth are you trying to say here exactly?

??

I will say it in different words for you - the purchasing power of public sector workers has increased since the pay cuts, that of the unemployed has fallen.

Factually incorrect. You have not factored in the abolishment of the P r s I threshold in the last budget. That reduced all workers spending power. My wages were reduced and by alot more than the unemployed

Silvio.Dante · 19-02-2013 06:31PM

I'm delighted to hear the Chief of IMPACT telling the 24/7 brigade to suck it in... I'd give my right arm to have access to their OT on demand at time and a half on a Sunday...

Mr.Micro · 19-02-2013 07:02PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm delighted to hear the Chief of IMPACT telling the 24/7 brigade to suck it in... I'd give my right arm to have access to their OT on demand at time and a half on a Sunday...

Watching them on the news yesterday, rabid at the possibility of pay cuts. The nation is up to its neck in debt, yet these people want to continue as if the gravy train still existed. Nobody wants to lose money in a salary or wage but a good dose of realism is necessary. The thousands of people who have had to leave Ireland because of no jobs, and more to go still, and these people feeling hard done by that still have a permanent job..... get real like the rest of us.

ardmacha · 19-02-2013 07:12PM

I will say it in different words for you - the purchasing power of public sector workers has increased since the pay cuts, that of the unemployed has fallen.

Do you have any data that shows that the aggregate purchasing power of public sector workers has increased? As distinct from individuals being personally in a better position.

not yet · 19-02-2013 07:12PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm delighted to hear the Chief of IMPACT telling the 24/7 brigade to suck it in... I'd give my right arm to have access to their OT on demand at time and a half on a Sunday...

Yeah but then you wouldn't be able to do it, bitter much.

woodoo · 19-02-2013 07:29PM

itzme wrote: »

Clerical officer (bottom and top of standard scale
€23,177 / 52 = 445.712 / 32.5 = €13.714 an hour
€37,341 / 52 = 718.10 / 32.5 = €22.10
.

I think you may be wrong with the clerical officer hours, any CO's i know do 35hrs

Silvio.Dante · 19-02-2013 07:30PM

not yet wrote: »

Yeah but then you wouldn't be able to do it, bitter much.

OT is a luxury in a country thats broke.I've been cut already and my Clerical Officer salary is about half what a nurse can earn with his/her OT added in.

The low paid Civil and Punlic Servants can't take more cuts, its about the higher grades and those who have lived the OT bonanza up until now...

Silvio.Dante · 19-02-2013 07:32PM

woodoo wrote: »

I think you may be wrong with the clerical officer hours, any CO's i know do 35hrs

I work 6h 57min a day = 34h 45min a week...

greenoverred · 19-02-2013 07:33PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm delighted to hear the Chief of IMPACT telling the 24/7 brigade to suck it in... I'd give my right arm to have access to their OT on demand at time and a half on a Sunday...

It looks like impact have totally changed tact on these pay talks. No more using the nurses and the guards to put forward the argument that clerical officers should not be cut. Instead this time they have scared their members into thinking that you are gonna be screwed but stick with us and you wont be as screwed as the other lot.

fall · 19-02-2013 07:37PM

How broke are we when the government can break their own already too high cap on top civil servants wages, their so called advisors.
Get rid of half the TD s. We are a small country and don't need half of them. Why should Enda be paid what he is. The bills are high because the country's money is mis managed.

woodoo · 19-02-2013 07:41PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I work 6h 57min a day = 34h 45min a week...

Oh forgot about the 15mins to pop up to the bank

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2013 07:42PM

I don't think the size of the Dail has much to do with Croke Park II.

But one thing a lot of people forget when they advocate radically cutting the size of a parliament is that such a move generally squeezes out the smaller parties. So if you want to turn it into even more of a Fianna Fail/Fine Gael duopoly, it's one way to go.

fall · 19-02-2013 07:49PM

But what about the Seanad? Look at what that costs the country to run. And of course it has something to do with the talks. It is a way of saving the state money and all the people from secretaries to advisors are public sector workers and part of the wage bill.

not yet · 19-02-2013 08:00PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

OT is a luxury in a country thats broke.I've been cut already and my Clerical Officer salary is about half what a nurse can earn with his/her OT added in.

The low paid Civil and Punlic Servants can't take more cuts, its about the higher grades and those who have lived the OT bonanza up until now...

Sweet jesus your an IBEC dream. It really is don't cut me cut them. Tell you what if your so envious of the salary of 365-24-7 staff why did you not spend a couple of years training on buttons, then leave your family on Christmas day etc.

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2013 08:01PM

AFAIK it would require a change in the constitution, which really isn't in the power of the government and public sector unions.

While cutting the number of TDs may be a symbolic gesture it has little effect in the overall pay bill.

Silvio.Dante · 19-02-2013 08:09PM

not yet wrote: »

Sweet jesus your an IBEC dream. It really is don't cut me cut them. Tell you what if your so envious of the salary of 365-24-7 staff why did you not spend a couple of years training on buttons, then leave your family on Christmas day etc.

I work two jobs on top of my CO day job. I've been on duty on evenings, nights Sundays, bank holidays and Easter/Christmas.

You see in the real world, away from the OT on tap 24/7 bubble, Clerical Officers in the Civil Service work part time in the private sector...

Vizzy · 19-02-2013 08:14PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I work two jobs on top of my CO day job. I've been on duty on evenings, nights Sundays, bank holidays and Easter/Christmas.

You see in the real world, away from the OT on tap 24/7 bubble, Clerical Officers in the Civil Service work part time in the private sector...

Oh Oh,serious can of worms open now.
"They took our jobs, Joe"
"Think of the kids, Joe"

Paulzx · 19-02-2013 08:28PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I work two jobs on top of my CO day job. I've been on duty on evenings, nights Sundays, bank holidays and Easter/Christmas.

You see in the real world, away from the OT on tap 24/7 bubble, Clerical Officers in the Civil Service work part time in the private sector...

OT on tap?

Do you think people just randomly turn up on a Sunday or any day and say "i think i'll do a bit of overtime today"

Overtime is used as required to cover staff shortages........not just because somebody decides they want to do overtime..........not in my job anyway.

Some areas have been easily able to absorb the staff shortages...maybe your area is one of them? Maybe you were overstaffed in the first place? You tell me.

Where i work has serious staff shortages due large numbers of retirements and resignations. No recruitment has taken place to cope with this yet the service still needs to be provided on a 24 hr basis.

Redeployments will happen soon to try and solve some of this

Silvio.Dante · 19-02-2013 08:35PM

Paulzx wrote: »

OT on tap?

Do you think people just randomly turn up on a Sunday or any day and say "i think i'll do a bit of overtime today"

Overtime is used as required to cover staff shortages........not just because somebody decides they want to do overtime..........not in my job anyway.

Some areas have been easily able to absorb the staff shortages...maybe your area is one of them? Maybe you were overstaffed in the first place? You tell me.

Where i work has serious staff shortages due large numbers of retirements and resignations. No recruitment has taken place to cope with this yet the service still needs to be provided on a 24 hr basis.

Redeployments will happen soon to try and solve some of this

I would love to be 'forced' to work OT...

Paulzx · 19-02-2013 08:40PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I would love to be 'forced' to work OT...

Where did I use the word "forced"?

Do you understand the concept of quoting someone accurately?

Overtime is voluntary but is only present due to the fact the service must be provided................not because the staff just decide to turn up randomly for overtime when they feel like it.

not yet · 19-02-2013 09:04PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I work two jobs on top of my CO day job. I've been on duty on evenings, nights Sundays, bank holidays and Easter/Christmas.

You see in the real world, away from the OT on tap 24/7 bubble, Clerical Officers in the Civil Service work part time in the private sector...

And.....!! whats your point.

not yet · 19-02-2013 09:07PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I would love to be 'forced' to work OT...

Grow up ffs would you..

If your that caught up on overtime, give up your job and train as a guard or firefighter. Then you can have overtime and allowances coming out your ears.

jank · 19-02-2013 09:15PM

The PS should be cut down to a size that is manageable long term. Are there any proposals about pension reform? That is a huge cost that is never discussed.

Gumbo · 19-02-2013 09:17PM

jank wrote: »

The PS should be cut down to a size that is manageable long term. Are there any proposals about pension reform? That is a huge cost that is never discussed.

What would you like done to ps pensions?
Can I keep my pension contributions and levies and reclaim all my previous payments if they are scrapped?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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