Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

noodler · 18-02-2013 11:13PM

tayto lover wrote: »

How would you do it?

I would have the Government sit down with the unions and negotiate further, targeted cuts rather than across the board cuts like last time.

Pretty much what is going on now tbh.

noodler · 18-02-2013 11:15PM

creedp wrote: »

I have commented on this view before in that I find it difficult to fully understand why persons losing their jobs in a particular sector should cause the wages of people in another sector to be cut. Those unfortunately being made unemployed in going concerns companies might equally say to their colleagues still in jobs if you took a pay cut the employer might be able to retain more jobs.

The reality is that the majority of redundancies over the last 4 or 5 years came from the construction sector as demand has plumetted and there simply is not enough construction work about. Certain parts of retail are also badly affected, e.g. HMV, because their business model can't survive in a changed environment where on-line Irish consumers have decided to abandon traditional retail and buy on-line or in building related retail such as DIY superstores where again demand has plumetted. In fact one of the main reasons quoted by retail companies for closure is that they couldn't afford the exhorbinant rents anymore whereby rents make up an unsustainable proportion of their sales revenue. It is vital that this anomaly is resolved. There is no justification for landlords increasing rents when retail volume/profitability is reducing.

Construction, followed by Retail - the main two alright.

One basic point is that the Government's revenue stream has been severely depleted so expenditure needs to react accordingly.

Another is that the extra people on the Live Register creates additional expenditure so that these people can actually survive.

Another is the argument that since PS pay in Ireland is higher than that of other European countries (even accounting for more qualifications) and that such salaries set a terrible precident for private sector businesses trying to creat jobs.

Vizzy · 18-02-2013 11:18PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Mod sent me a note stating the thread is going off course over that. Set up a thread and I will show you.

Done !

I'l get the popcorn.

Rightwing · 18-02-2013 11:19PM

noodler wrote: »

Construction, followed by Retail - the main two alright.

One basic point is that the Government's revenue stream has been severely depleted so expenditure needs to react accordingly.

Another is that the extra people on the Live Register creates additional expenditure so that these people can actually survive.

Another is the argument that since PS pay in Ireland is higher than that of other European countries (even accounting for more qualifications) and that such salaries set a terrible precident for private sector businesses trying to creat jobs.

A lot in the pharma sector have lost jobs too, I notice an extra 94 axed today from GSK.

noodler · 18-02-2013 11:25PM

Rightwing wrote: »

A lot in the pharma sector have lost jobs too, I notice an extra 94 axed today from GSK.

Although there is no pharma sector cateogry in the CSO QNHS, I would expect that that is one industry which has actually increased employment over the last 5 years.

Professional, scientific and technical activities is the broad category covering this in the QNHS and this shows an increase in numbers worked.

Even if I am wrong and numbers have fallen - it is absolutely negligable compared to a Construction, Retail, Industry.

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/labourmarket/principalstatistics/

Silentcorner · 18-02-2013 11:30PM

creedp wrote: »

I have commented on this view before in that I find it difficult to fully understand why persons losing their jobs in a particular sector should cause the wages of people in another sector to be cut. Those unfortunately being made unemployed in going concerns companies might equally say to their colleagues still in jobs if you took a pay cut the employer might be able to retain more jobs.

The reality is that the majority of redundancies over the last 4 or 5 years came from the construction sector as demand has plumetted and there simply is not enough construction work about. Certain parts of retail are also badly affected, e.g. HMV, because their business model can't survive in a changed environment where on-line Irish consumers have decided to abandon traditional retail and buy on-line or in building related retail such as DIY superstores where again demand has plumetted. In fact one of the main reasons quoted by retail companies for closure is that they couldn't afford the exhorbinant rents anymore whereby rents make up an unsustainable proportion of their sales revenue. It is vital that this anomaly is resolved. There is no justification for landlords increasing rents when retail volume/profitability is reducing.

For the same reasons that when wages in a number of different sectors rise it impacts on others...is that difficult to understand...is it what is referred to as benchmarking(or upward only benchmarking it seems)...

talla10 · 18-02-2013 11:33PM

This may seem simplistic but why not start cutting those who earn the most and those with multi million golden handshakes, government ministers etc and high earners in public sector instead of hitting emergency workers time and again??

creedp · 18-02-2013 11:39PM

noodler wrote: »

Construction, followed by Retail - the main two alright.

One basic point is that the Government's revenue stream has been severely depleted so expenditure needs to react accordingly.

Another is that the extra people on the Live Register creates additional expenditure so that these people can actually survive.

Another is the argument that since PS pay in Ireland is higher than that of other European countries (even accounting for more qualifications) and that such salaries set a terrible precident for private sector businesses trying to creat jobs.

They may be higher but not to the extent of the 50% premium often quoted in the media and here tonight in this thread.

I was flicking through a EU Commission report recently "Economic Adjustment Programme for Ireland Autumn 2012 Review" (sorry haven't link as present) which referred to a 2012 CSO Report which said that the unexplained wage gap for full-time employees was about 14-17% in 2010, down from 18-20% in 2007. However if employer size is taken into account the gap is down to 7-8% in 2010 down from 12-14% in 2007. It also argues the gap is widest at the low income end of the distribution and gradually falls to zero or negative around the 80th or 90th percentile in 2010.

The report also refers to an ECB working paper (Dec 2011) which found a conditional wage premium in favour of public sector workers in a range of countries with Ireland displaying a relatively high premium. However, the study covers the period 2004-07, i.e. before the public pay cuts in Ireland. As a reminder, these pay cuts were between 5% and 15% in Jan 2010 and the pension levy between 0% and 10.5% in 09. Note how the lower income people were protected from the worst of the cuts so it could be argued that if the premium continues to exist it is most likely to do so at lower income levels.

This study kind of debunks the long held theory that Ireland is the only country in which public sector wages are higher than private sector wages. I think it might also mean that if public sector wages in Ireland are so much higher than those in other countries, this must mean that private sector wages are also higher than thier equivalent in these other countries.

Food for thought

itzme · 18-02-2013 11:42PM

talla10 wrote: »

This may seem simplistic but why not start cutting those who earn the most and those with multi million golden handshakes, government ministers etc and high earners in public sector instead of hitting emergency workers time and again??

It is a fair question, but for instance if you were to cut all wages in the PS to €80,000 max the reduction this would have on the deficit annually would be less than €250mn ( I think it was quoted as €500mn gross and €180mn net by howlin but can't find the link).
I'm not saying we shouldn't cut at the top or tax the top more just pointing out there is not magic wand and that even a crazy approach of a cap of €80,000 on all the public sector doesn't make the huge savings people would think, it would be 0.04% reduction in the gross bill.

Godge · 18-02-2013 11:45PM

noodler wrote: »

No but of the 25bn+ of adjustments so far, only a tiny amount have come from the PS pay bill.

What 25bn worth of adjustments? Please show me where (exclusive of banking costs) that there has been 25bn worth of adjustments.

As for public sector pay these are the FACTS:

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2007-20121.pdf

"in 2012 the pay bill will amount to €14,402m, a decrease of 12.6% over the 2009 figure of €16,471m."

Has any other area of public expenditure decreased by a factor of 12.6%?

Now the myth about the private sector losing jobs:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2012/qnhs_q32012.pdf

"There was an annual decrease in employment of 0.2% or 4,300 in the year to the third quarter of 2012, bringing total employment to 1,841,300"

Maybe there is something in this idea that the private sector is losing jobs. Oh but wait a minute, read on:

"The number of employees in the public sector declined by 16,200 (-4.1%) in the year to Q3 2012, bringing the total number of employees in the public sector to 377,900"

So if total employment went down 4,300 but public sector employment went down 16,200, this means private sector employment went up by 11,900. Wow, more jobs in the private sector - why aren't we singing from the rooftops?? Because it doesn't fit the narrative of bashing the public service.

I have shown in detail earlier in the thread how public sector average earnings have gone down but private sector average earnings have gone up but for those who missed it, here it is:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q32012.pdf

"In the three years to Q3 2012 public sector earnings have fallen by €38.25 (-4.0%), and this compares with an increase of €8.56 (+1.4%) in private sector average weekly earnings in the same period."

And remember this doesn't include the pension levy cut.

Now these are all official CSO reports and Department of Public Expenditure and Reform publications not ramblings and anecdotes of random posters on discussion boards. The FACTS show private sector pay increases over the last three years and private sector job increases over the last year.

Maybe the above could be made a stickie in the public/private sector earnings thread on the first page.

Now to answer some of the deluded responses to my earlier posts. I do not begrudge anyone a pay increase, neither am I using private sector pay increases to justify public sector pay increases. I am merely pointing out that public servants are not stupid (in fact I would say that they are more informed about public policy issues than say, the average boards.ie poster in Irish economy) and that they will be aware of the facts as set out above and will not be happy with their unions if those unions come back to them with a deal that includes a pay cut and those unions will have a hard time selling any such deal to their members which means it will be very difficult to see how a deal can be done.

And for all those who suggest taking on the unions, can they name me an industrial dispute in the last 30 years that the government has won?

Godge · 18-02-2013 11:47PM

creedp wrote: »

They may be higher but not to the extent of the 50% premium often quoted in the media and here tonight in this thread.

I was flicking through a EU Commission report recently "Economic Adjustment Programme for Ireland Autumn 2012 Review" (sorry haven't link as present) to a 2012 CSO Report which said that the unexplained wage gap for full-time employees was about 14-17% in 2010, down from 18-20% in 2007. However if employer size is taken into account the gap is down to 7-8% in 2010 down from 12-14% in 2007. It also argues the gap is widest at the low income end of the distribution and gradually falls to zero or negative around the 80th or 90th percentile in 2010.

The report also refers to an ECB working paper (Dec 2011) which found a conditional wage premium in favour of public sector workers in a range of countries with Ireland displaying a relatively high premium. However, the study covers the period 2004-07, i.e. before the public pay cuts in Ireland. As a reminder, these pay cuts were between 5% and 15% in Jan 2010 and the pension levy between 0% and 10.5% in 09. Note how the lower income people were protected from the worst of the cuts so it could be argued that if the premium continues to exist it is most likely to do so at lower income levels.

This study kind of debunks the long held theory that Ireland is the only country in which public sector wages are higher than private sector wages. I think it might also mean that if public sector wages in Ireland are so much higher than those in other countries, this must mean that private sector wages are also higher than thier equivalent in these other countries.

Food for thought

Very well put

woodoo · 18-02-2013 11:50PM

road_high wrote: »

Can we keep borrowing €1.2 billion a month? No answer, obviously.

The UK where everyone loves to compare us to are borrowing 400,000 pounds per minute.

Gumbo · 18-02-2013 11:57PM

kceire wrote: »

Your wild claims throughout the last 10 pages would be a good start.

Quite interested in this comment, are there any countries running a surplus at present?

Road-high : can you answer this question please.

road_high · 19-02-2013 12:02AM

woodoo wrote: »

The UK where everyone loves to compare us to are borrowing 400,000 pounds per minute.

A massive and powerful economy in comparison. They have real wealth and did not have to go with the begging bowl to the IMF. We did. Also large natural resources in the form of oil.
The fact of the matter is that we Ireland cannot go on with public spending and borrowing at these levels. We can compare ourselves to Mars but it's still not going to change our deficit.
Just because my neighbour is constantly in overdraft with the bank does not mean it's ok and prudent for me to do the exact same.

Godge · 19-02-2013 12:04AM

road_high wrote: »

A massive and powerful economy in comparison. They have real wealth and did not have to go with the begging bowl to the IMF. We did. Also large natural resources in the form of oil.
The fact of the matter is that we Ireland cannot go on with public spending and borrowing at these levels. We can compare ourselves to Mars but it's still not going to change our deficit.
Just because my neighbour is constantly in overdraft with the bank does not mean it's ok and prudent for me to do the exact same.

Agree that we have to cut our deficit but there are many ways to skin a cat. I have pointed out repeatedly on this thread that public servants have given more than most and I stand over those figures.

road_high · 19-02-2013 12:06AM

kceire wrote: »

Road-high : can you answer this question please.

Glad you a take such an interest in my posts. According to Eurostat Hungary and Norway did in 2011. Ireland (the country we live in) interestingly had one of the largest revenue/expenditure gaps. If it weren't the case then this thread wouldn't exist.
We cannot afford this situation to go on.

Gumbo · 19-02-2013 12:08AM

road_high wrote: »

Glad you a take such an interest in my posts. According to Eurostat Hungary and Norway did in 2011. Ireland (the country we live in) interestingly had one of the largest revenue/expenditure gaps. If it weren't the case then this thread wouldn't exist.
We cannot afford this situation to go on.

Can you provide a link please. As I said I'm quite interested.

road_high · 19-02-2013 12:13AM

kceire wrote: »

Can you provide a link please. As I said I'm quite interested.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-12-027/EN/KS-SF-12-027-EN.PDF

Nice little graph on page 2 there for ya as well to hammer home how far Ireland is/was spending ahead of what she takes in.

Rightwing · 19-02-2013 12:18AM

road_high wrote: »

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-12-027/EN/KS-SF-12-027-EN.PDF

Nice little graph on page 2 there for ya as well to hammer home how far Ireland is/was spending ahead of what she takes in.

Well done. Good to point people to concrete information, show them what a desperate situation this country is in.

Paulzx · 19-02-2013 12:45AM

Rightwing wrote: »

. Good to point people to concrete information,.

You are seriously taking the pi55!!!:D

creedp · 19-02-2013 12:48AM

road_high wrote: »

A massive and powerful economy in comparison. They have real wealth and did not have to go with the begging bowl to the IMF. We did. Also large natural resources in the form of oil.
The fact of the matter is that we Ireland cannot go on with public spending and borrowing at these levels. We can compare ourselves to Mars but it's still not going to change our deficit.
Just because my neighbour is constantly in overdraft with the bank does not mean it's ok and prudent for me to do the exact same.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/7198359/Britains-economy-now-as-bad-as-1970s-JP-Morgan-warns.html

We might be in a bad place ourselves but the UK was also humiliated by seeking the IMF begging bowl in the 1970's. It would appear also that they aren't too far from the same place right now either. So much for the real wealth, etc.

Farmer Pudsey · 19-02-2013 01:30AM

ardmacha wrote: »

The bulk of private sector employees are not experiencing pay cuts and many of these have never had a pay cut.

The private sector is made up of different sections private sector. Most private sector employers because of lower wages find it hard to retain employees unless they are full time. In real terms since the down turn a large amount of workers have been laid off and some of these have emigrted.

Where the biggest pay cuts happened in the private sector is in the small sole trader are there were selfemployed workers that are not entitles to SW. It is also noticable that I believe that this is area that a large fall in Income tax take has happened. These people often ran small 2-3 workers operations. It also has a kick back in reducing other sectors dependant on them such as accountants.

creedp wrote: »

I have commented on this view before in that I find it difficult to fully understand why persons losing their jobs in a particular sector should cause the wages of people in another sector to be cut. Those unfortunately being made unemployed in going concerns companies might equally say to their colleagues still in jobs if you took a pay cut the employer might be able to retain more jobs.

The reality is that the majority of redundancies over the last 4 or 5 years came from the construction sector as demand has plumetted and there simply is not enough construction work about. Certain parts of retail are also badly affected, e.g. HMV, because their business model can't survive in a changed environment where on-line Irish consumers have decided to abandon traditional retail and buy on-line or in building related retail such as DIY superstores where again demand has plumetted. In fact one of the main reasons quoted by retail companies for closure is that they couldn't afford the exhorbinant rents anymore whereby rents make up an unsustainable proportion of their sales revenue. It is vital that this anomaly is resolved. There is no justification for landlords increasing rents when retail volume/profitability is reducing.

This is exactly what happened in the private sector a builder/developer closed down, the builder supplier lost buisness so laid off staff, the sub contractor to the builder/developer did not get paid was saddeld with losses so again laid off workers.

These workers had less money to spend so retailer sold less TV or breackfast rolls so he laid off staff. It is only in the Public sector when your income (tax take) reduces that you can increse them( and there is a limit to that) and leave wages virtuall untouched. Most posters fail to compare the rise in PS costs in Numbers and wages since 2000 which is the start of the boom. they prefer to just look at the pay reduction since 2008.

creedp wrote: »

They may be higher but not to the extent of the 50% premium often quoted in the media and here tonight in this thread.

I was flicking through a EU Commission report recently "Economic Adjustment Programme for Ireland Autumn 2012 Review" (sorry haven't link as present) which referred to a 2012 CSO Report which said that the unexplained wage gap for full-time employees was about 14-17% in 2010, down from 18-20% in 2007. However if employer size is taken into account the gap is down to 7-8% in 2010 down from 12-14% in 2007. It also argues the gap is widest at the low income end of the distribution and gradually falls to zero or negative around the 80th or 90th percentile in 2010.

The report also refers to an ECB working paper (Dec 2011) which found a conditional wage premium in favour of public sector workers in a range of countries with Ireland displaying a relatively high premium. However, the study covers the period 2004-07, i.e. before the public pay cuts in Ireland. As a reminder, these pay cuts were between 5% and 15% in Jan 2010 and the pension levy between 0% and 10.5% in 09. Note how the lower income people were protected from the worst of the cuts so it could be argued that if the premium continues to exist it is most likely to do so at lower income levels.

This study kind of debunks the long held theory that Ireland is the only country in which public sector wages are higher than private sector wages. I think it might also mean that if public sector wages in Ireland are so much higher than those in other countries, this must mean that private sector wages are also higher than thier equivalent in these other countries.

Food for thought

The wage premium in Ireland compared to other EU countries is higher. In the UK the Premium seems to be in the range of about 15-18% in ireland it is the range of 45-48%. We also pay certain sections of our PS way ahead of comparable grades in other EU countries. It was one of the major complaints of French and German officials dealing with Ireland it seems. For example hospital Consulants in Germany earn I think less than 100K while in Ireland they earn 200K+. We have the same issue with protected Professional sections such as solicitors, Engineers Doctors.

gazzer · 19-02-2013 09:03AM

I cant get over the amount of money nurses get for working Sundays (if this article is true) http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0218/368454-govt-tables-plans-for-sunday-premium-payments

That is the weekly wage for a CO in the Civil Service. How the hell cant that premium be justified? I am all for people getting overtime and allowances for working unsociable hours but not that much.

not yet · 19-02-2013 09:23AM

road_high wrote: »

25% of a €12 billion over run is still massive.

Every other area of running this country has either increased of stayed static except the PS, which has decreased it's headcount by 25-30k and payroll bill by approx 3 billion.

not yet · 19-02-2013 09:37AM

noodler wrote: »

No but of the 25bn+ of adjustments so far, only a tiny amount have come from the PS pay bill.

Are you for real......

Now listen up please because I am sick to the back teeth of this rubbish.

295,000 PS workers have taken a 14% paycut which equals approx 3billion euro.

295,000 PS workers have been hit with the household charge.

295,000 PS workers have paid the usc.

295,000 PS workers have paid along with everyone else all the hidden taxes in the past 4 years. PS WORKERS HAVE BEEN HIT AS HARD, IF NOT HARDER THEN MOST.

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2013 09:41AM

Everyone, whether their public or private sector has to pay the Household Charge (if they own a house) and Universal Social Charge.

not yet · 19-02-2013 09:47AM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Everyone, whether their public or private sector has to pay the Household Charge (if they own a house) and Universal Social Charge.

Well of course they do, What I am saying in response to the post above which gave the impression that PS workers only took a tiny amount of the pain is PS workers took paycuts on top of all the hidden charges so in fact gave more then the average private sector worker......

road_high · 19-02-2013 09:47AM

not yet wrote: »

Now listen up please because I am sick to the back teeth of this rubbish.

.

That's nice but the deficit still remains so more will have to come off the paybill. It's callled cutting your cloth to suit your measure.

itzme · 19-02-2013 09:48AM

gazzer wrote: »

I cant get over the amount of money nurses get for working Sundays (if this article is true) http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0218/368454-govt-tables-plans-for-sunday-premium-payments

That is the weekly wage for a CO in the Civil Service. How the hell cant that premium be justified? I am all for people getting overtime and allowances for working unsociable hours but not that much.

Probably because of basic maths. 12 hour shifts at double time
€417 / 12 = 34.75 / 2 = €17.375 an hour
€604 / 12 = 40.33 / 2 = €25.17

Clerical officer (bottom and top of standard scale
€23,177 / 52 = 445.712 / 32.5 = €13.714 an hour
€37,341 / 52 = 718.10 / 32.5 = €22.10

A qualified nurse getting paid between €3.1 and €3.5 an hour more than a clerical officer, I don't have a problem with that. Seems reasonable.
Seems your issue is with double time.

Scofflaw · 19-02-2013 09:53AM

Rightwing wrote: »

Mod sent me a note stating the thread is going off course over that. Set up a thread and I will show you.

Rightwing wrote: »

Back what up ? :rolleyes:

Rightwing wrote: »

Well done. Good to point people to concrete information, show them what a desperate situation this country is in.

The mod note was to point out that you had made a lot of assertions, without backing any of them up. You still haven't, so sanctions will start to be applied.

[EDIT]Having read the other thread, a 3 day ban has been applied. If Rightwing continues his antics on his return, a permaban will be applied, because this is a major waste of everybody's time.[/EDIT]

moderately,
Scofflaw

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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