Door is open for Ireland to join Nato, says military alliance's chief

Nino Brown wrote: »

Well I guess that's the debate, are we happy to be a weak cowardly nation, cowering behind Britain and the US if the SHTF, letting their soldiers die to protect us, or are we willing to do our part to defend ourselves.

Cowardly?? I dont think so. Weak? yes militarily we are we have professional soldiers who are extremely good at what they do but we dont have the standing army nor the kit to put up much of a fight in the first instance. But that wouldnt be our strategy. We could never repel an invasion, however, should invaders somehow get here they wouldnt have a seconds peace our resistance would be guerilla tactics based on hit and run and as long as it takes. We would give them such a headache and bloody nose over whatever period of time that eventually they would fck off. Play to your strengths and all that.

Defend ourselves against whom?? list our enemies starting with the nation most likely to pick a fight with us and for what reason?..tell me the last time a US or British soldier died in a foreign war theatre protecting me and my family???...

Also, we arent hiding behind anybody. What I outlined in my first post is realpolitik its just how the world is geopolitics.

Nino Brown wrote: »

I'm repeating myself here, but the last time British and American troops died defending your family was about 70 years ago, not really that long in historical terms.
And again, I'm not saying we have any threats right now, but in 70 years time, who knows? Only 70 years ago the Germans were going to invade us.

But for arguments sake let me give you a totally hypothetical situation off the top of my head, in a few years time fiat currency collapses due to excessive printing, the EU breaks up. Since the end of the petro-dollar nations are scrambling to secure oil resources. The US is obviously pre-occupied with war, as is Britain. Ireland have been awarded sovereignty over rockall, but Iceland sents a fleet of ships to take it for themselves anyway. We need to defend it because it is our only major oil field, so we are forced to send them a very very strongly worded letter telling them to go away.

I am not against being in a position to defend ourselves every person or nation has that right. We should never start a fight but should someone pick a fight with us we fight back and rightly so. As an island nation we have natural strategic defenses but we dont have the money nor an indigenous military industry to realise this. We are already alligned we are not a neutral country thats a myth and in my opinion allignment is enough. Signing up to NATO has more hardcore legal ramifications if one of the already 28 members decide to do something silly then we are automatically dragged into it. Fck that sh1t. Take Georgia for example picking a fight with the Russians thinking they were going to gain NATO membership and NATO had their backs. There is always a chance that some idiot leader of a member country will do something so silly that it affects the rest of the members in my opinion its a risk not worth taking we dont need to take it.

The Nazis are a bad example. For a start it was the Russians who turned the tide of world war 2 when they defeated the 6th army at the battle of Stalingrad. That was the turning point. Yes Britain and the US played their part but had it not been for the Russians who greatly weakened the nazis militarily and psychologically it would have been irrelevant. The US fought mainly in the pacific and for their own strategic reasons. Also, the British funded and supported the Nazi party in its infacy and are partly to blame for the monster that was created. You reap what you sow. Plus at the end of the war all those evil horrible nazi scientists who did such unspeakably evil things were rounded up given new identities and divided between the allies. Project paperclip, its where the US space programe came from among others. So the allies thought it a good idea to fund the nazi party who in turn reduced most of Europe to rubble killing millions and then when it was all done thought it ok to round up their "best" minds and use them for their own purposes when really they should have been executed or imprisoned for being evil monsters. The nazis in my opinion are not a good example.
Im guessing Iceland has a similar if not smaller navy than we have though I accept the point you are making. If the situation you describe does somehow come to pass and the world as we know it crashes and war abounds well then its all a bit pointless as it will be all out thermo-nuclear war and we all lose. If the petro dollar collapses then America collapses that means the military industrial complex collapses and that means war a very big unthinkable war.

lapsed wrote: »

A prize for the first person on this thread to find in our constitution the clause that states that Ireland is a neutral country. And as we are bound by our constitution, we are therefore not neutral. Various governments have adopted a position of neutrality, which is not the same thing at all.

As for the whinging " schoolsandhospitals " lot, why don't you explain how Denmark and New Zealand, for example, have both fit for purpose defence forces and fully functioning schools and hospitals ???

Personally I dont understand the hardon people have for Irish membership of NATO what benefits do we get from it??.. I really would be interested in hearing them. The Alliance was set up to counter the threat of the Soviet Union and as much as people like to believe that the cold war has ended, Russia and the West will always be locked in a geostrategic tussle for resources and influence. You only have to read the literature of their most prominent foreign policy thinkers and makers to see this.

Nuclear primacy will eventually replace mutual assured destruction. For all the "politics" and "reasoning" that takes place at the united nations the Russians still view NATO and NATO members as a threat. See the statements that Medvedev and Putin made in relation to the proposed US missile shiled in Europe they even went as far as to move Iskander nuclear tipped missiles closer to European borders to make it easier for them to take out the shield should they so choose too. Russian nuclear weapons are pointed at US and NATO member cities. Ireland joins up its a safe bet to assume that Russian nukes will then be pointed at our major cities. I for one do not want to live under the threat of nuclear obliteration to join a club that we dont need too and as far as I can see offers us no benefits. Notwithstanding being dragged into illegal immoral wrong wars for that reason and that reason alone I would not want to sign up to NATO and I hope we dont.

gallag wrote: »

You do realise that guerrilla tactics only work against an aggressor that plays fair, useless against an enemy happy to decimate the population. I hope irelands defence strategy is more evolved.

See that isnt true not by a long shot no pun intended. Its exactly what the VC and NVA did in Vietnam. Vietnam is the most bombed country in history go read about some of the sh1t the Americans did there hardly playing fair. When you dont have an army capable of winning in an open fight what do you do?? do you just accept defeat or do you go underground, organise, and fight back?? and Im not talking about the Northern Ireland Im talking about us being invaded and outgunned which would be the most likely outcome considering our current forces should somebody decide to do such a thing.

gallag wrote: »

The theatre of war has evolved, if your primary defence is men with rifles then a handfully of drones piloted by spotty teenagers would lay a whoopen on ya. Ireland needs anti air and a few subs.

A few subs? Haha. The troika would love that.

gallag wrote: »

The theatre of war has evolved, if your primary defence is men with rifles then a handfully of drones piloted by spotty teenagers would lay a whoopen on ya. Ireland needs anti air and a few subs.

Our primary defence is not making enemies. That should be our primary defence not getting involved in illegal wars as the US and Britain do for their own selfish reasons. Any would be invaders if you want to take and hold land eventually you have to put boots on the ground. Those spotty teenagers you speak off cant do that. Eventually you would have to come get us and we would be waiting. Of course I hope nothing like that ever happens but this idea of joining NATO is just silly it is of no benefit to us our government and their policies are not despised in many parts of the world in the same way the American and British government are. I for one would like to keep it that way.

Nino Brown wrote: »

I'm repeating myself here, but the last time British and American troops died defending your family was about 70 years ago, not really that long in historical terms.

Bollocks. Nobody died on my behalf. I owe the British and Americans exactly SFA.

gallag wrote: »

You do realise that guerrilla tactics only work against an aggressor that plays fair, useless against an enemy happy to decimate the population. I hope irelands defence strategy is more evolved.

If you're talking about the north the British didn't exactly 'play fair'.

Internment.
Torture
Paid informers who continued to murder.
Collusion with loyalist murder gangs
Shoot to kill.
Bombing Dublin.

Also, the British couldn't push it to the extremes of, say, a South American dictator because of the Irish Diaspora in Britain.

We don't really have anything to defend here and it's ridiculous to even suggest a beefed up military while the UK controls the 6 counties.

G Power wrote: »

this will be very bad for us here and if we did join up what would be next?? we are witnessing the nails being hammered into Irelands coffin and nobody gives enough of a rats ass to try do anything about it.

About what exactly? Perhaps we should gag him?

gallag wrote: »

As for the British behaviour in the north it was exemplary

Tell that to the Bloody Sunday/Ballymurphy families or anyone who was mudered by the Glenanne Gang.

I can't imagine it being possible for the ira to return to violence.

They wouldn't have the popular support these days so its unlikely we'll see a return to the bad old days.

gallag wrote: »

You do but, its established fact that Hitler would not have been kind to Ireland, you owe your way of life to the British, American, Russian and about 65 thousand of your fellow country men who bravery fought so you had the freedom to lambast them. I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics involved to convince yourself the deaths of the allied forces did not benefit you.

The Allies didn't fight the Nazis for my benefit. The Americans weren't even all that bothered by the Germans taking over Europe. The American public was pretty isolationist and anti-war before Pearl Harbour (which btw was the desired outcome of the US goading Japan by throttling it)

The British and Americans fought the Nazis for geo-strategic reasons not any highfalutin notions of freedom and democracy.

Even if the Germans had followed the retreating British across the English Channel and taken Britain and Ireland how long would they have managed to hold it? A few years?