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James Bulger, 20 years ago today...

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Comments

  • #62
    RossyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 297 ✭✭RossyG


    allibastor wrote: »
    They were both born evil, and raised evil. If that happen my kids I would have killed the young lads, and their families. Kids dont wake up one day and decidee to do this.

    Your third sentence rather contradicts the first two.


  • #63
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    old hippy wrote: »
    That's not justice. That's vengeance.

    Here's how less bloodthirsty people handle such crimes

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/oct/30/bulger.simonhattenstone

    very interesting story, thanks for the link


  • #64
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    RossyG wrote: »
    Your third sentence rather contradicts the first two.

    Not really, They would have both been born bad, and raised bad. A kid in a bad home wont usually end up doing something like this, it would have to have been a two factor thing. The parents were scummy and raised thier horrible kids, but the kids would know right from wrong. they did try to cover up the body so must have known they did something wrong.


  • #65
    RossyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 297 ✭✭RossyG


    allibastor wrote: »
    they did try to cover up the body so must have known they did something wrong.

    That's certainly true. In fact, they tried to make it look like a train had hit it.

    The fact that they could tell right from wrong meant that some kind of rehabilitation was possible.


  • #66
    Hoop66
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,273 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    If you're in here posting things like "They are evil" and "I would kill the kids", then you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.


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  • #67
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    RossyG wrote: »
    That's certainly true. In fact, they tried to make it look like a train had hit it.

    Yeah, If you were a person who didnt know right from wrong you would have left them there to be found without worr over covering it up yourself. you only try to hid something when you know it should not have been done.

    That Norway thing is mad, I regularily go to Trondheim and have never heard of it at all.


  • #68
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    RossyG wrote: »
    That's certainly true. In fact, they tried to make it look like a train had hit it.

    I think you'll find that the little lad's body was struck by one or more trains.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #69
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    The Venables details seem to conflict with what his solicitor said.

    Yes JK,there appears to be some differences of focus alright....
    Mr Lee sympathised with Venables' parents, whom he described as 'very respectable people', saying that the boy's upbringing was 'no worse than any kid in Liverpool'.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #70
    RossyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 297 ✭✭RossyG


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I think you'll find that the little lad's body was struck by one or more trains.

    Yes, they left it on a track to make it look like being hit by the train was the cause of death.


  • #71
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    allibastor wrote: »
    Not really, They would have both been born bad, and raised bad. A kid in a bad home wont usually end up doing something like this, it would have to have been a two factor thing. The parents were scummy and raised thier horrible kids, but the kids would know right from wrong. they did try to cover up the body so must have known they did something wrong.

    trying not to get caught and feeling what they did was wrong are two different things.

    i think its easier to say they were evil than to delve deep into their minds and societies failings and find out why this actually happened but I feel it was just an unforutanate chain of events, that two badly abused boys who also happened to be (or at least one of them) psychopaths befriended each other and somehow got it into their heads to murder this beautiful little boy...

    an evil act is the best way to decribe it, idk its hard to seperate emotion and fact in something as upsetting as this story


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  • #72
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    RossyG wrote: »
    Yes, they left it on a track to make it look like being hit by the train was the cause of death.

    Yeah the poor baby was found more or else in half I beleive. he was put over the track and his head buried in rubble to hold him in place.


  • #73
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    davet82 wrote: »
    trying not to get caught and feeling what they did was wrong are two different things.

    i think its easier to say they were evil than to delve deep into their minds and societies failings and find out why this actually happened but I feel it was just an unforutanate chain of events, that two badly abused boys who also happened to be (or at least one of them) psychopaths befriended each other and somehow got it into their heads to murder this beautiful little boy...

    an evil act is the best way to decribe it, idk its hard to seperate emotion and fact in something as upsetting as this story

    The main reason someone tries not to get caught is because they know that it is something they should not have done. Would you try and not get caught for eating some smarties? No, because you know its not wrong. Would you try and not get caught picking your nose? Yes because you know that it is not nice.

    you only cover something up when you know its something others would find in poor tase or something wrong with it, which is the first sign in knowing if something is correct or incorrect.


  • #74
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    allibastor wrote: »
    The main reason someone tries not to get caught is because they know that it is something they should not have done. Would you try and not get caught for eating some smarties? No, because you know its not wrong. Would you try and not get caught picking your nose? Yes because you know that it is not nice.

    you only cover something up when you know its something others would find in poor tase or something wrong with it, which is the first sign in knowing if something is correct or incorrect.

    you cover up something because you don't want to get punished for it (is what they done imo), feeling no remorse or compassion while they bashed a two year olds head in suggests there is something exceptionally wrong with these two 10 year old boys. So did they really know (in an fully functional adult way) what they were doing was wrong? - who knows


  • #75
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    allibastor wrote: »

    The main reason someone tries not to get caught is because they know that it is something they should not have done. Would you try and not get caught for eating some smarties? No, because you know its not wrong. Would you try and not get caught picking your nose? Yes because you know that it is not nice.

    you only cover something up when you know its something others would find in poor tase or something wrong with it, which is the first sign in knowing if something is correct or incorrect.

    Yeah but knowing something is wrong and caring that it's wrong are two different things. Ted Bundy covered his crimes up too and was well aware it was wrong - he just didn't care.


  • #76
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    davet82 wrote: »
    you cover up something because you don't want to get punished for it (is what they done imo), feeling no remorse or compassion while they bashed a two year olds head in suggests there is something exceptionally wrong with these two 10 year old boys. So did they really know (in an fully functional adult way) what they were doing was wrong? - who knows

    and you know you will get punished for it becuase you know its wrong. as said you dont expect punishment for eating smarties do you?

    And to be fair I would not give them the chance, just think of all the things young james could have done in life that will now never happen. for all we know he could have gone on to do something great.

    People who make a decision to kill or seriously damage another persons life should not have the choice to rehabilitate to then lead thier own life, they stopped someone from living thier life and should not be helped to "get over it"


  • #77
    thecapedcanine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭thecapedcanine


    This story has me heartbroken. Ive actually cried over this little boy that I didnt know that died 20 years ago.
    My own little lad who's nearly two has been getting numerous extra hugs and kisses since this has been in the news recently and he's going to be getting even more this evening when I get home.
    These two boys (men now) that commited this crime will have to live with this forever, as will poor Jamies mother and father and family.
    I cant even picture my world without my son in it, and as a mother I cant guarantee that I wouldnt have the reaction that some have had wherby they say that they would kill anyone that hurt their children.
    Poor little angel boy Jamie. I cant look at those pictures from the CCTV anymore and Im not going to read any more articles as its just too upsetting.


  • #78
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    allibastor wrote: »
    and you know you will get punished for it becuase you know its wrong.
    Well that's a philosophical argument.

    People do lots of things which they try to cover up, but they don't believe to be "wrong".

    Knowing that you will be punished for something and knowing that it's morally or ethically wrong, are two different things.


  • #79
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    allibastor wrote: »
    and you know you will get punished for it becuase you know its wrong. as said you dont expect punishment for eating smarties do you?

    if somebody is insane, metally unstable ect do they know right from wrong? - is the point i'm making, they may realise consquences but fail to see anything wrong with what they have done


  • #80
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    seamus wrote: »
    Well that's a philosophical argument.

    People do lots of things which they try to cover up, but they don't believe to be "wrong".

    Knowing that you will be punished for something and knowing that it's morally or ethically wrong, are two different things.

    To be fair, that is also a bit of an academic arguement isnt it, how do you know you will be punihsed for somehting if you dont beleive it to at least be an incorrect action. for the brain to understand that there is a risk of punishment it must also understand on some level that what being undertaken is not what is expected by whom ever will do the punishing.

    Moral and ethics can be subjective, but the knowladge that you will be punshed comes from knowing what you are doing is not correct that some form of redress will happen. Bringn moral and ethics into it is the philosophical arguement. I personally dont think its morally wrong to kill someone who has killed, But I know if i do it I will be punished. if i didnt think i would be punished or that society in general would think me wrong I would and i would not hide the body, it would be left where it fell.


  • #81
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    davet82 wrote: »
    if somebody is insane, metally unstable ect do they know right from wrong? - is the point i'm making, they may realise consquences but fail to see anything wrong with what they have done

    The mentally insane dont generally cover up somehting as they fundementally dont see anything wrong with what they did. they might have a moment where the insanity takes over, but if they regain some sense after the fact they then realise there will be reprocussions. Do you rememebr that lad from cork i think who killed the young kid, he said it was a momentary lapse in judgement, and then went BACK to hide the body. If he was nuts he would have left the young lad where he killed him.


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  • #82
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    allibastor wrote: »
    To be fair, that is also a bit of an academic arguement isnt it, how do you know you will be punihsed for somehting if you dont beleive it to at least be an incorrect action. for the brain to understand that there is a risk of punishment it must also understand on some level that what being undertaken is not what is expected by whom ever will do the punishing.
    It's hard to discuss without falling into grey areas. For example, I would assist a terminally ill relative in ending their life. I am aware that this could lead to punishment, but I do not consider my act to be incorrect. I consider the punishment to be incorrect.

    So despite being aware that someone thinks the action is incorrect and that I could be punished for it, I don't think the action is incorrect or wrong.

    Like I say, there's a fundamental difference between knowing that someone else thinks something is wrong, and believing yourself that it's wrong. I don't know what the legal test for it is though.

    I would never say that just because someone knows that they may be punished for an act, that they actually understand why.

    It's not really as simple as saying, "If you try to cover up what you've done, you can't be mentally ill".


  • #83
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    allibastor wrote: »
    The mentally insane dont generally cover up somehting as they fundementally dont see anything wrong with what they did. they might have a moment where the insanity takes over, but if they regain some sense after the fact they then realise there will be reprocussions. Do you rememebr that lad from cork i think who killed the young kid, he said it was a momentary lapse in judgement, and then went BACK to hide the body. If he was nuts he would have left the young lad where he killed him.

    i'm saying they were two emotionally and mentally damanged children who probably knew soceity would judge what they done was wrong but didn't feel that way themselves or they probably wouldn't have done it...

    maybe they did know what they were doing was wrong but there are cases when people have diminished responsibility, its not all black and white


  • #84
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    seamus wrote: »
    It's not really as simple as saying, "If you try to cover up what you've done, you can't be mentally ill".

    thats what i'm trying to say, thanks seamus :pac:


  • #85
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    seamus wrote: »
    It's hard to discuss without falling into grey areas. For example, I would assist a terminally ill relative in ending their life. I am aware that this could lead to punishment, but I do not consider my act to be incorrect. I consider the punishment to be incorrect.

    So despite being aware that someone thinks the action is incorrect and that I could be punished for it, I don't think the action is incorrect or wrong.

    Like I say, there's a fundamental difference between knowing that someone else thinks something is wrong, and believing yourself that it's wrong. I don't know what the legal test for it is though.

    I would never say that just because someone knows that they may be punished for an act, that they actually understand why.

    It's not really as simple as saying, "If you try to cover up what you've done, you can't be mentally ill".

    But the point remains, would you do it. and if you did would you know you would be punished.
    If you know you will be punished you are aware that it is because, on a general note, you know what you are doing is not what is correct in society. It may be personally correct, and I would side with you on it, But from our society it is not the correct thing to do.

    So you either dont do it, Or you do it and hope no one finds out you helped as you know you will get in trouble. Or else you tell everyone and accept the fall out from helping end someones suffering.


  • #86
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    a truly shocking crime, the kids who did it were really messed up and needed serious help which they never really got, it may or may not have made a difference but i'd imagine those who knew thomson and venables knew they were on the wrong path but would surely not have thought they would have committed such an evil act.


  • #87
    Branch Meeting
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 72 ✭✭Branch Meeting


    RossyG wrote: »
    No. They were horrifically abused by the adults closest to them to the the point that it completely warped their outlook. Venables used to line his Action Men up along his bed to 'guard' him while he slept, so fearful was he of being attacked. That's not the actions of someone born evil.

    So the acceptable reaction for 10 years olds in this situation is to kidnap, torture, and murder a 2 year old ?
    False compassion helps no one.
    10 year olds know right from wrong, simple as.


  • #88
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    davet82 wrote: »
    i really dont know how much or what exactly the 38 witnesses saw but unfortunately you see 10 year olds 'watching' 2 and 3 year olds all the time around Dublin city, if you were to complain to the parents you would probably get your face kicked in and if you complain to the guards you're wasting their time and you soon realises nothing can be done about it, anyways I wouldn't blame those people i'm sure they feel guitly enough as it is

    If you ever see a 2 year old being dragged along in distress by older children, ask yourself if you are looking at another James Bulger. The Gardaí will certainly take an interest if a 2 year old is being abused - they've heard of James Bulger too.

    "JAMES Bulger, the two-year-old allegedly beaten to death in Bootle, Merseyside, was spotted by passers-by in a distressed state being dragged along by two children, but nobody stopped to intervene, Preston crown court heard yesterday." http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1993/nov/05/bulger


  • #89
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    Was just reading this in the paper today , I remember reading it a few years ago as well. It's awful stuff, nearly brought me to tears on lunch so I had to turn the page.

    As many have said , being a father now myself it makes it cut that little bit deeper when reading into how that child suffered. Them two lads are depraved , to hurt an innocent baby like that there's no excuse for it what so ever , not bad parenting , not I didn't know it was wrong , not take sympothy on them for x y or z. It was a disgusting crime and they should never have been let out of prison...never.

    My little boy is my entire world , I honestly wouldn't be able to go on if anything ever happend to him. As most parents would feel, it wouldn't be like taking a part of me it'd be taking all of me and I can understand why some would seek revenge as opposed to this kind of justice.

    I wouldn't blame the father if he tracked them down and butchered them , I can't say that I would or wouldn't and hope to god I'd never be put in that situation but my life would have ended the moment they hurt my child so I'd just hand myself over to the guards when I wras finished with them.

    Highly emotional topic , I hope to never have to see something like this ever happen again.


  • #90
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    davet82 wrote: »
    i'm saying they were two emotionally and mentally damanged children who probably knew soceity would judge what they done was wrong but didn't feel that way themselves or they probably wouldn't have done it...

    maybe they did know what they were doing was wrong but there are cases when people have diminished responsibility, its not all black and white

    I agree with you, They had mitigating circumstances, but the fact remains that they tried to lure another child out to push them into traffic, then took james on a 2.5 mile walk, both holding his hand, and carrying him, a tough feat for 2 10 year olds lads to do.

    My point still stands though, you dont try and cover something up unless somewhere in the old gray matter you know you should not be doing it.


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  • #91
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    allibastor wrote: »
    I agree with you, They had mitigating circumstances, but the fact remains that they tried to lure another child out to push them into traffic, then took james on a 2.5 mile walk, both holding his hand, and carrying him, a tough feat for 2 10 year olds lads to do.

    My point still stands though, you dont try and cover something up unless somewhere in the old gray matter you know you should not be doing it.

    yes i agree they knew they shouldn't be doing it, i'm just pointing out they in some cases (most likely this one too) they're understanding of wrong is different to ours i.e sane adults compared to a psychotic emotionally mentally disturbed 10 year olds. e.g I know i'll get in trouble but I don't think its wrong what i'm doing - insane or juvenile reasoning


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