James Bulger, 20 years ago today...

juan.kerr · 12-02-2013 01:20PM

HondaSami wrote: »

I was living in the UK at the time and I remember it like it was yesterday, one of the most upsetting things I have read. RIP James.

I always felt some sympathy for the boys at the time because they had a terrible childhood, no excuse I know but their parents were awful.

One set were, one set weren't I understand. Regardless, not everyone from a broken home or worse turns out like these lads so not sure it's that relevant.

snowgal · 12-02-2013 01:24PM

after just reading back on that awful awful day and seeing again the horrible way this was done I say sickos sickos sickos. horrible disgusting half humans who do not deserve to be on this earth whether they were kids or not. scum is not even the right word. I was young when this happened and really only appreciate now how vile this was.

davet82 · 12-02-2013 01:32PM

seamus wrote: »

Child soldiers. Otherwise "normal" kids who can be taught to kill and possibly enjoy killing. So it's not just a matter of a child requiring certain traits to be able to kill another.

Upbringing plays a large part in what's going on, so if you place violence close enough to the list of things which says, "This is acceptable" (or even *in* the list of acceptable things) then a child who does not fear retribution or lacks the ability to foresee the consequences may just go ahead and be increasingly violent.

good point but the extremity of the environment how child soldiers are brought up and how these two kids were brought are worlds apart, so how did these boys leap from being 'little feckers' to such a gruesome act is what puzzles me.

Like I understand the idea maybe, the menatality of such a childish fantasy to snatch a kid but when they seen the blood running down is his little face and his cries it is really super un-natural that they didn't stop and reality take over to what they were doing, I will never get my head around it.

.jacksparrow. · 12-02-2013 01:32PM

If the chemical make up of your brain is evil,not a lot you can do to stop it.

clairefontaine · 12-02-2013 01:35PM

davet82 wrote: »

good point but the extremity of the environment how child soldiers are brought up and how these two kids were brought are worlds apart, so how did these boys leap from being 'little feckers' to such a gruesome act is what puzzles me.

Like I understand the idea maybe, the menatality of such a childish fantasy to snatch a kid but when they seen the blood running down is his little face and his cries it is really super un-natural that they didn't stop and reality take over to what they were doing, I will never get my head around it.

It's so incomprehensible, one can't even begin to understand it, how you could be so distanced from compassion that you could do this?

Poll Dubh · 12-02-2013 01:39PM

James Bulger was seen by 38 people after being abducted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

Let's learn from the past and not let it happen again on our watch.

Czarcasm · 12-02-2013 01:40PM

HondaSami wrote: »

It's true once you have children yourself you see the world in a different light, we can all feel sympathy but where children are concerned parents feel it more.

I never feel that's a fair comment tbh. It's very much dependent on the individual as to how circumstances can affect them, regardless of Whether they are a parent or not. I can only speak anecdotally but I remember as a 16 year old I felt the same revulsion I do now when I read this case. The fact I am now a parent isn't a factor in that revulsion and doesn't make it any more valid than a person who does not have children.

12-02-2013 01:46PM

8 years was a disgraceful sentence in the first place. Reading reports one of the offenders venables seemed to brag to people about what he had done and didnt hide the fact too well. Should be both still in prison. At 10 years old you understand what you were doing was sick and wrong.

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-02-2013 01:46PM

I try not to think too deeply into crimes like this and the moors murders etc,it effects you so much more when you have kids,but what i will say as a parent that if anyone did anything like this to my kids the person would feel exactly the same fear and pain before i killed them

davet82 · 12-02-2013 01:51PM

Poll Dubh wrote: »

James Bulger was seen by 38 people after being abducted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

Let's learn from the past and not let it happen again on our watch.

i really dont know how much or what exactly the 38 witnesses saw but unfortunately you see 10 year olds 'watching' 2 and 3 year olds all the time around Dublin city, if you were to complain to the parents you would probably get your face kicked in and if you complain to the guards you're wasting their time and you soon realises nothing can be done about it, anyways I wouldn't blame those people i'm sure they feel guitly enough as it is

quad_red · 12-02-2013 01:52PM

I was twelve when that happened and I remember watching the CCTV footage of Jamie Bulger being led away and losing a real sense of innocence.

I know it sounds silly but I can remember it so vividly. I'd seen movies and documentaries about terrible acts before obviously. But this was the first time I really began to understand the magnitude of what I was hearing. The scale of the terrible violence and depravity and how that poor child must have suffered and it really really affected me. I remember thinking about the impact that such a tragedy would have on my parents and our family. It's strange but the memory of it is still so vivid. I was absolutely physically appalled and sickened.

Now that I have a child it scares me beyond belief. It goes against all the goodness you hope and assume for a child.

Menas · 12-02-2013 01:54PM

I was in england at the time and remember been completely gripped by the case. When the boy was found by the tracks there was almost a information blackout regarding what happened to him. And then when Venables and Thompson were arrested things just seemed sureal. It really made you question what kind of world we live in.
And now all these years later when I re-read what they actually did to him at the railway tracks- it makes my stomach turn.

I will never understand how his mother lost him. But with regards to the 38 people who saw the three boys together, really all they saw was a toddler crying with two older boys. Those who asked if everything was ok were told that he was their brother which is plausible. And of course James was too young to explain his distress.

old hippy · 12-02-2013 02:00PM

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

If there was any justice the two lads would still be rotting away in prison.

That's not justice. That's vengeance.

Here's how less bloodthirsty people handle such crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/oct/30/bulger.simonhattenstone

I ask Beate whether she hates the boys, and she seems astonished by the question. No, she says, of course not, although she still cannot comprehend what happened. "They were Silje's friends ..." she says, tailing off. Should they have been punished, locked up? "No, they were punished enough by what they did. They have to live with that. I think everybody has got to be treated like a human being. The children had to be educated, had to learn how to treat other people so they could get back into society."

sham69 · 12-02-2013 02:01PM

I remember it at the time and wasn't really affected by it apart from being disgusted.
It was only a few years ago when I had kids that I read about Venables reoffending (I think) and it brought it back..

Possibly the most disgusting crime I can remember.
I thought it strange that so many people saw them that day with the child, crying with a huge lump on his head where he fell and didnt question it?

My youngest is 2 now and I don't think I could carry on if anything happened to him.
I feel so sorry for the poor family whose worlds were turned upside down after that day.
Lets hope something like this never happens again.

RIP James.

Czarcasm · 12-02-2013 02:02PM

davet82 wrote: »

good point but the extremity of the environment how child soldiers are brought up and how these two kids were brought are worlds apart, so how did these boys leap from being 'little feckers' to such a gruesome act is what puzzles me.

Like I understand the idea maybe, the menatality of such a childish fantasy to snatch a kid but when they seen the blood running down is his little face and his cries it is really super un-natural that they didn't stop and reality take over to what they were doing, I will never get my head around it.

meehan makes a good explanation of it here-

_meehan_ wrote: »

About 1% of the world's population is psychopathic, however it takes a certain kind of environment for these genes/brain patterns to be expressed. A person with psychopathic brain patterns will likely never act in a way which is considered by most "psychopathic" because they've had a normal upbringing with a healthy home and school life etc. The correlation of genes and environment is important when it comes to these kind of things.

In other words, it takes a combination of factors for the behaviour to present itself, factors like the person's brain pattern (which is developed before they are even born), the environment and social structure they are introduced to, and the opportunity for these behaviours to present themselves.

Depending on circumstances, the child can grow up to be a healthy and productive member of society while still maintaining psychopathic or sociopathic brain patterns, just that they can remain dormant if they are brought up in what is considered a healthy environment. However, yet again, these brain patterns can be triggered depending on circumstances in their adult life, hence the reason why we have child killers in society like Ian Huntley and Wayne O' Donohue, both of whom would previously never have been thought to be capable of the acts they carried out.

vitani · 12-02-2013 02:03PM

seamus wrote: »

Odd enough that I used to be able to read the details of the case no problem, but since having a child of my own, I can't.

I tried reading the details yesterday, but had to stop halfway through. I'm on the verge of tears whenever I think too much about the case.

I know the phrase is used a lot, but this really has to be every parents' worst nightmare. I have a 2 year old myself and most of the time, I tend to forget how vulnerable she really is , because she's a happy, sturdy little thing. The thought of her being taken like that scares me to my very core.

Micky Dolenz · 12-02-2013 02:05PM

Thanks for making my day a little less sunny

AEDIC · 12-02-2013 02:12PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Then following your logic children should be tested for sociopathic or psychopathic traits early in life, and if found to possess these traits, be locked away for the rest of their lives as a consequence of what they *might* do.

We also might as well throw away the idea of rehabilitation for violent criminals - after all, you'd need to be fairly sociopathic to commit aggrevated robbery on a shop or whatever - and *what* might these people do when they get out. Is automatically giving these people life without possiblity of parole feasible, or in the best interests of society? Can a 10 year old even fully comprehend a crime of this magnitude in the way an adult could?

As for looking up child porn - yep, he fcuked up and was rightfully put back behind bars. With that said, the more sociopathic one is still out isn't he? According to your logic, he's the bigger danger, yet nothing suggests he has done anything since leaving prison (because presumably the tabloids would be all over it if he did)

Wow....just wow.... great leap in logic there.... and no...just those children that have beaten and tortured to death a 2 year old boy.

As for the rest of your nonsense post I think I will pass thank you.... you need to stop read and more importantly think before you post, you seem to have an slight inability to read and understand.

April O Neill · 12-02-2013 02:29PM

HondaSami wrote: »

I was living in the UK at the time and I remember it like it was yesterday, one of the most upsetting things I have read. RIP James.

I always felt some sympathy for the boys at the time because they had a terrible childhood, no excuse I know but their parents were awful.

Yeah, their childhoods really were truly horrendous. People say that behaviour shouldn't be blamed on your upbringing but honestly, theirs can't be ignored. If they were adults when they committed the crime, it might be less forgiveable to point to upbringing.

That CCTV still is haunting, especially because a Mothercare store is in the background. A cruel, unfortunate touch for Jame's mother.

old hippy · 12-02-2013 02:32PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I try not to think too deeply into crimes like this and the moors murders etc,it effects you so much more when you have kids,but what i will say as a parent that if anyone did anything like this to my kids the person would feel exactly the same fear and pain before i killed them

And then the parents of those kids would do the same to you.

And then your relatives would do the same to the parents.

And then their relatives would do the same to your relatives.

And so on ad infinitum.

The lessons learned from this are simple - break the cycle and try rehabilitation (as in my link earlier) not vengeance.

juan.kerr · 12-02-2013 02:34PM

April O Neill wrote: »

Yeah, their childhoods really were truly horrendous.

Links?

old hippy · 12-02-2013 02:38PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

Links?

http://www.newstatesman.com/law-and-reform/2010/03/venables-thompson-children

Venables and Thompson certainly came from tough backgrounds. Thompson's mother was an alcoholic who frequently left her seven children to fend for themselves; Blake Morrison's book on the Bulger case detailed how they "bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other". Venables's mother suffered from severe depression and repeatedly hit him - he was afraid of her, ranging his toys up on his bed in a pathetic attempt at protection

uRbaN · 12-02-2013 02:38PM

Just to echo what others have said, in 1990 I was aware of it, but I was only 10.
I head the Pat Kenny show this morning and realised I didn't know/remember much about it.
Just read the Wiki and feel ill.
I have a 2 Year old son and f**k me but do I feel lucky that I will see him when I go home. Its disturbing. Everything about this case was disturbing.

davet82 · 12-02-2013 02:44PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Thanks for making my day a little less sunny

Well anything with James Bulger in the title thread was hardly going to be a ray of sunshine in all fairness

iDave · 12-02-2013 02:45PM

I've never been able to explain this one to myself and maybe its best I dont, I just cant get my head around the thought process that led to this. When I was 10 all I cared about was watching Man United. Everyone asks how children so young could do such a thing but maybe theres some things about human behavior that cannot be explained.

seamus · 12-02-2013 02:45PM

old hippy wrote: »

Thompson's mother was an alcoholic who frequently left her seven children to fend for themselves; Blake Morrison's book on the Bulger case detailed how they "bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other"

One article I read detailed how Thompson's father would frequently beat and torture the boys. After he left and the mother became a hopeless alcoholic, the boys were all left to fend for themselves and it became a "Lord of the flies" scenario. Even though the eldest boy was 20, he didn't take on any kind of father role and the torture and abuse meted out by their father was carried on by the boys against eachother - the elder ones abusing the younger ones.

If your home life involves a continuous cycle of violence with no repurcussions, it doesn't seem that far-fetched that one or all of those children would engage in the same behaviour outside of the home.

Micky Dolenz · 12-02-2013 02:47PM

davet82 wrote: »

Well anything with James Bulger in the title thread was hardly going to be a ray of sunshine in all fairness

That was my point.

juan.kerr · 12-02-2013 02:50PM

old hippy wrote: »

http://www.newstatesman.com/law-and-reform/2010/03/venables-thompson-children

Venables and Thompson certainly came from tough backgrounds. Thompson's mother was an alcoholic who frequently left her seven children to fend for themselves; Blake Morrison's book on the Bulger case detailed how they "bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other". Venables's mother suffered from severe depression and repeatedly hit him - he was afraid of her, ranging his toys up on his bed in a pathetic attempt at protection

The Venables details seem to conflict with what his solicitor said.

AlekSmart · 12-02-2013 02:54PM

old hippy wrote: »

That's not justice. That's vengeance.

Here's how less bloodthirsty people handle such crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/oct/30/bulger.simonhattenstone

I ask Beate whether she hates the boys, and she seems astonished by the question. No, she says, of course not, although she still cannot comprehend what happened. "They were Silje's friends ..." she says, tailing off. Should they have been punished, locked up? "No, they were punished enough by what they did. They have to live with that. I think everybody has got to be treated like a human being. The children had to be educated, had to learn how to treat other people so they could get back into society."

All very well,it may be said.

Romans 12:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I'm not so sure of the issues raised by the Venables and Thompson case,but for sure they remain as deeply troubling today as they were 20 years ago.

Neither do I see the Silje Raedegard case as having enough parallels to their's.

Some lengthy coverage here,but well worth taking the time to read,although it must be said a thoroughly depressing read nonetheless.

http://www.the-utopian.org/post/2340735271/the-hardest-choice

The alternative interpretation of Venables’ actions is that there is a causal connection between the manner in which he was treated after the murder and the alleged child porn offenses. In recent years, psychologists have noted the remarkable frequency with which juvenile criminals reoffend after a period of detention and have explained this phenomenon using what is known as the ‘secondary deviance amplification hypothesis’. This hypothesis suggests that children — unlike adults — are actually enormously difficult to rehabilitate, and that juvenile psychology is more severely affected by the manner in which their crimes are treated than is the psychology of their elders. Where a child is incarcerated for an offense, a negative label is attached not only to the crime itself, but also to the juvenile perpetrator. This necessarily impedes the child’s reintegration into society. The psychological damage increases in proportion to the duration of juvenile detention. Although the form it may assume is obviously variable, it has been demonstrated that incarceration cements a predisposition to future crime. Furthermore, it has been suggested that this effect is particularly pronounced in youths who actually feel bad about their crimes.

The secondary deviance amplification hypothesis seems to provide an attractive explanation for Jon Venables’ alleged involvement in child pornography.

Venables reoffending,it appears,was of a nature which sufficiently alarmed his monitoring team,to the extent of immediately having him taken back into custody.

It could be suggested that this response alone,may have prevented another attempt by him to relive his part in Jamie Bulgers woeful murder.

Perhaps the "Less Bloodthirsty" have a lasting means of controlling him after all..?

allibastor · 12-02-2013 02:57PM

davet82 wrote: »

Today 20 years ago James Bulger was abducted, I cannot believe how fast that time has gone, it still creeps me out this murder especially now I have a children of my own.

After 20 years one the lads that done it seems to have been rehabilitated (IDK?) and the other is a pedophile, so its right to say at least one of them was born evil?

On reflection were the lads who took part almost victims themselves of this sad and twisted event? Or was justice served?

I find it hard to form an opinion on anything here because emotions run so high with how the murder was carried out butd its easy to forget the perpetrators were only children themselves, so who do you blame then, the parents? childs play? soceity? Or its just some random terrible act that just happens sometimes and no sense can be made of it...

anyways i'm interested in peoples view

RIP James, never forgotten

They were both born evil, and raised evil. If that happen my kids I would have killed the young lads, and their families. Kids dont wake up one day and decidee to do this.

James Bulger, 20 years ago today...

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