The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 08:32PM

philologos wrote: »

Do you teach about earlier English reformers before Henry? - If you are aware of these Reformers you'll know that I can rightfully disagree with Henry's behaviour and disagree with redefining marriage.

That's all I wanted to know. I'm not going to engage with snarky comments. In fact there's no point discussing this at all if we cannot do it with respect.

I already said I did.

I already said I understand your position but disagree that your deeply held religious beliefs should be imposed on all of society.
Nor is your point of view held by all Anglicans.

The fact remains - Henry redefined marriage by making it dissoluble by the State where previously only the Roman church could do this - in order to do so Henry created a Church of England and tied it to the State via the Monarch.

Whether one agrees or disagrees the fact remains that in order to gain a divorce, Henry VIII redefined marriage, at least as far as Christendom was concerned.

Of course in Ireland divorce was freely available - Hugh O Neill also had 6 wives and didn't fell the need to have any of them executed to clear the way for the next...

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 08:40PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Of course there is something off about it, but I'm not sure what you expect Phil or me or anyone to say? He never claimed to be rid of his same sex attraction, so like the rest of us, he struggled with his sin. If he was dishonest in his writing about his experience, then that is indeed a serious issue. One I'm sure he will certainly realise now more than ever. Not only will it bring reproach on him, but it brings reproach on God. He still maintains his conviction though, that he chooses Christ over sin, so I'd certainly forgive and pray for him. I choose sin over Christ regularly, as I have not reached a stage in my Christian walk where I truly hate sin, and I seek forgiveness regularly. I don't need to be caught to be remorseful, but certainly the consequences are greater when a person is caught. Listening to Lance Armstrong about his cheating, I would discern that it was all about getting caught, and nothing about the damage he's done etc. Looking at Matt Moore, it seems to me, that like myself, he would have had that remorse with or without being 'outed', but for having been caught, the consequences he will face will be greater than his own personal remorse. All in all, I think this will be positive for him if he truly does want to serve Christ. I personally hope he has good support at this time.

Where in my post did I indicate I 'expected' you or Phil to respond?
It was not addressed to either of you nor are either of you the only Christians to post in this thread.

My hope is that this man finds peace with himself whatever happens - he is obviously in conflict but due to his public persona as a 'cured' homosexual he is the author of much of his own misfortune when he decided to not practice what he was preaching.

philologos · 08-02-2013 08:50PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I already said I did.

I already said I understand your position but disagree that your deeply held religious beliefs should be imposed on all of society.
Nor is your point of view held by all Anglicans.

The fact remains - Henry redefined marriage by making it dissoluble by the State where previously only the Roman church could do this - in order to do so Henry created a Church of England and tied it to the State via the Monarch.

Whether one agrees or disagrees the fact remains that in order to gain a divorce, Henry VIII redefined marriage, at least as far as Christendom was concerned.

Of course in Ireland divorce was freely available - Hugh O Neill also had 6 wives and didn't fell the need to have any of them executed to clear the way for the next...

And most other Christians disagreed with him.

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 08:51PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Where in my post did I indicate I 'expected' you or Phil to respond?
It was not addressed to either of you nor are either of you the only Christians to post in this thread.

Phil responded to you, and you responded to this response. Thats why I asked you what did you expect.

My hope is that this man finds peace with himself whatever happens - he is obviously in conflict but due to his public persona as a 'cured' homosexual he is the author of much of his own misfortune when he decided to not practice what he was preaching.

He said he was someone that continued to struggle with same sex attraction, so why do you keep on lying about him claiming he was cured of his homosexuality? Are you aware that you are doing this? It seems rather ironic that you'd draw peoples attention the case (indicating that you have an issue with dishonesty), then indulge in such blatant dishonesty yourself

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 09:09PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Phil responded to you, and you responded to this response. Thats why I asked you what did you expect.

He said he was someone that continued to struggle with same sex attraction, so why do you keep on lying about him claiming he was cured of his homosexuality? Are you aware that you are doing this? It seems rather ironic that you'd draw peoples attention the case (indicating that you have an issue with dishonesty), then indulge in such blatant dishonesty yourself

Because in his blog he did claim to be cured. Cured by the power of prayer.

And as for your comment about my being dishonest - more insults Jimi?

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 09:25PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Because in his blog he did claim to be cured. Cured by the power of prayer.

Everything I've read says that he claimed that he still had same sex attraction. Could you show me where he said that due to the power of prayer, he now didn't have homosexual desire?

And as for your comment about my being dishonest - more insults Jimi?

I should have given you the benefit of the doubt that you may be drawing info from a source beyond what has been posted before of accusing you of it. In the face of the articles posted so far though, it is clear he never claimed that he was no longer suffering same sex attraction. So could you provide the evidence of what you are claiming, and I will humbly apologise for jumping the gun because dishonesty is indeed a most horrible thing, and accusations of it should not be thrown around lightly.

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 09:35PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Everything I've read says that he claimed that he still had same sex attraction. Could you show me where he said that due to the power of prayer, he now didn't have homosexual desire?

I should have given you the benefit of the doubt that you may be drawing info from a source beyond what has been posted before of accusing you of it. In the face of the articles posted so far though, it is clear he never claimed that he was no longer suffering same sex attraction. So could you provide the evidence of what you are claiming, and I will humbly apologise for jumping the gun because dishonesty is indeed a most horrible thing, and accusations of it should not be thrown around lightly.

Matt Moore wrote in the Christian Post

"although I have same sex thoughts on a daily basis, I do not, in any way, feel compelled to ever return to a lifestyle of homosexuality."

Yet he opened an account on a gay dating website where he, at the very least, gave men the impression that he was interested in either a relationship or casual sex with gay men. I would be of the opinion that flirting or otherwise engaging in an activity whose purpose is to hook up with gay men is very much part of that 'lifestyle of homosexuality' Moore claimed publicly to have no compulsion to return to.

I await your apology.

Benny_Cake · 08-02-2013 09:44PM

Apparently Matt Moore used his main Facebook picture on the profile he put up, which could indicate that he wanted to be found out? In any case, from reading about him there may be some mental health issues in play here so I think people should hold off on making cruel remarks, I feel kind of sorry for him.

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 09:58PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Matt Moore wrote in the Christian Post

Yet he opened an account on a gay dating website where he, at the very least, gave men the impression that he was interested in either a relationship or casual sex with gay men. I would be of the opinion that flirting or otherwise engaging in an activity whose purpose is to hook up with gay men is very much part of that 'lifestyle of homosexuality' Moore claimed publicly to have no compulsion to return to.

I await your apology.

Sorry, I'm waiting for the bit that says he was cured of his same sex attraction? You said he said that he was cured, when its clear that nothing that has been posted says that, but it rather says the opposite. He quite clearly stipulates that he continued to have homosexual desires but didn't want to go back to his gay lifestyle. Now have you got the evidence of your claims of him being cured or what?

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 10:01PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Apparently Matt Moore used his main Facebook picture on the profile he put up, which could indicate that he wanted to be found out? In any case, from reading about him there may be some mental health issues in play here so I think people should hold off on making cruel remarks, I feel kind of sorry for him.

Hi Benny, do you mind me asking where you read about the mental health issues?

Benny_Cake · 08-02-2013 10:06PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Hi Benny, do you mind me asking where you read about the mental health issues?

This article mentions that he had admitted to struggling with depression in the last while. Combine that with doing something as reckless as using your Facebook picture on such a site and it almost seems like a cry for help.

G.K. · 08-02-2013 10:33PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I didn't get the latest Politically Correct memo, but its ridiculous to try make out that transgenderism is anything but a disorder! A person born physically a man, but who believes that they are actually a woman, to the extent that they want to have their Penis surgically removed, is on hormones for the rest of their lives, and who'll never physically be a woman etc. If thats not a disorder, then nothing is. For goodness sake!

You have no idea, no damn idea.

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 10:34PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Sorry, I'm waiting for the bit that says he was cured of his same sex attraction? You said he said that he was cured, when its clear that nothing that has been posted says that, but it rather says the opposite. He quite clearly stipulates that he continued to have homosexual desires but didn't want to go back to his gay lifestyle. Now have you got the evidence of your claims of him being cured or what?

Again you are arguing semantics while spinning that as you being in search of 'truth' while those who do not share your interpretations are guilty of dishonesty.

On Jan 29th Moore wrote a blog entry entitled 'Leaving Homosexuality: The Real Power Of My Testimony.' I am sure that if he had not been caught doing what he claimed he wasn't doing you and others would be claiming he was 'cured' (by Jesus no doubt) but now that he has been caught - it's oh well, he never actually said he was cured.

Tell me if he had 'left' homosexuality does that not imply a 'cure'.

For the record, I don't believe homosexuality is either an illness or a disorder therefore there is not such thing as a 'cure' - any more than there is for heterosexuality.

Having read his blog I do agree with Benny that there are mental health issues at play here.

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 10:46PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

This article mentions that he had admitted to struggling with depression in the last while. Combine that with doing something as reckless as using your Facebook picture on such a site and it almost seems like a cry for help.

Yeah, I know what you mean. TBH, he probably pre-maturely put himself up as a poster boy for fighting with same sex attraction, and others probably were telling him how great it was etc. That probably put more pressure on him etc. You still can't excuse him deceiving others, but I certainly empathise with the guy. Hopefully this will prompt better leadership in Christian circles too about the eagerness to put such people into the limelight. There is a bit of a culture war going on, especially in the US, so he's going to have to deal with all kinds of things. I do believe that he will be better for it, if he has the right support, and if he can stay strong. I thought the below was encouraging:

Interview wrote:

Have you been in contact with the young man who found you on Grindr and outed you? If so, how would you describe the tone of your conversation?

Moore: Yes, I have. He was angry at first, but after a day or two actually apologized for some of the things he said and did. He has even offered to call a couple of the people he called "outing" me to apologize. He, like most of the media posting about me, had not actually read anything that I've written to any measurable degree. They assume that I'm telling people they need to turn "straight" to be loved by God, which is not a message I proclaim. He did not know that I was open with the fact that I still experience same-sex attraction on a daily basis, something that I've been extremely public with.

So you never know, he may get a chance to reach out to others on the back of this, but this time more openly and honestly.

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 10:50PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Yeah, I know what you mean. TBH, he probably pre-maturely put himself up as a poster boy for fighting with same sex attraction, and others probably were telling him how great it was etc. That probably put more pressure on him etc. You still can't excuse him deceiving others, but I certainly empathise with the guy. Hopefully this will prompt better leadership in Christian circles too about the eagerness to put such people into the limelight. There is a bit of a culture war going on, especially in the US, so he's going to have to deal with all kinds of things. I do believe that he will be better for it, if he has the right support, and if he can stay strong. I thought the below was encouraging:

So you never know, he may get a chance to reach out to others on the back of this, but this time more openly and honestly.

I have to say I agree with everything you say here Jimi.

I hope this young man does find peace with himself.

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 10:52PM

G.K. wrote: »

You have no idea, no damn idea.

A person who wants to be a woman, but is physically a man. Should we now pretend that this is perfectly normal, and that there is nothing wrong? For goodness sake!

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 11:02PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Again you are arguing semantics while spinning that as you being in search of 'truth' while those who do not share your interpretations are guilty of dishonesty.

On Jan 29th Moore wrote a blog entry entitled 'Leaving Homosexuality: The Real Power Of My Testimony.' I am sure that if he had not been caught doing what he claimed he wasn't doing you and others would be claiming he was 'cured' (by Jesus no doubt) but now that he has been caught - it's oh well, he never actually said he was cured.

Tell me if he had 'left' homosexuality does that not imply a 'cure'.
.

So what you are saying is that he NEVER claimed what you said he claimed.

He NEVER said he claimed to be cured! He claimed to have left his homosexual life behind while at the same time maintaining THAT HE CONTINUED TO BE SAME SEX ATTRACTED.

The question is, are you going to continue to misrepresent him?

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 11:04PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have to say I agree with everything you say here Jimi.

Its the end of the world as we know it

G.K. · 08-02-2013 11:13PM

JimiTime wrote: »

A person who wants to be a woman, but is physically a man. Should we now pretend that this is perfectly normal, and that there is nothing wrong? For goodness sake!

Again you have the wrong end of the stick completely but this, imo, is not the thread for it.

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 11:17PM

JimiTime wrote: »

So what you are saying is that he NEVER claimed what you said he claimed.

He NEVER said he claimed to be cured! He claimed to have left his homosexual life behind while at the same time maintaining THAT HE CONTINUED TO BE SAME SEX ATTRACTED.

The question is, are you going to continue to misrepresent him?

Do stop shouting Jimi.

If one 'leaves' something - one puts it behind/exits/is no longer there.

Leaving Homosexuality = No longer being homosexual.

Those were HIS words, not mine.

Of course he bloody struggles - he's a gay man trying not to be. :rolleyes:

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 11:27PM

G.K. wrote: »

Again you have the wrong end of the stick completely but this, imo, is not the thread for it.

No problem. Feel free to PM me.

JimiTime · 08-02-2013 11:37PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do stop shouting Jimi.

If one 'leaves' something - one puts it behind/exits/is no longer there.

Leaving Homosexuality = No longer being homosexual.

Those were HIS words, not mine.

He left his HOMOSEXUAL LIFE. I.E. Sleeping with men, but continued to struggle with homosexual desires. He continually maintained that he had same sex attraction, but fought them. That was his claim. NOT that he was 'Cured of homosexuality'.

Oh, and the capitals are for emphasis, because I can't believe you are STILL trying to stand by your initial misrepresentation;)

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 11:40PM

JimiTime wrote: »

He left his HOMOSEXUAL LIFE. I.E. Sleeping with men, but continued to struggle with homosexual desires. He continually maintained that he had same sex attraction, but fought them. That was his claim. NOT that he was 'Cured of homosexuality'.

Oh, and the capitals are for emphasis, because I can't believe you are STILL trying to stand by your initial misrepresentation;)

He went cruising on-line Jimi. We have only his word he didn't hook up. A word that is questionable given he has already been seen to misrepresent himself.

I can believe you are still trying to spin this.

Let me ask you this

Do you believe a person can be cured of homosexuality by prayer?

philologos · 09-02-2013 12:13AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He went cruising on-line Jimi. We have only his word he didn't hook up. A word that is questionable given he has already been seen to misrepresent himself.

I can believe you are still trying to spin this.

Let me ask you this

Do you believe a person can be cured of homosexuality by prayer?

I don't think that Jimi is doing any spinning.

By the by, I don't think any temptation towards sin vanishes overnight. Indeed, some never will, it is just up to us to keep striving towards what is good. I think that Christians should seek a more realistic, a more reasonable, and a more Biblical paradigm to explain our temptation to sin rather than claiming that it will vanish overnight.

Paul explains it powerfully in Romans I think:

Romans 7:13-25 wrote:

Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Chapters 5 and 6 put forward our new identity in Jesus. Romans 7 gives us a hint of what the present reality will look like even for the Christian, and Romans 8 gives us the roadmap from the present state that we're in to the point by which Christians are glorified and the entire creation is redeemed after the return of Christ.

I believe that God will one day restore us as human beings if we believe and trust in Him, and I believe that God will create a new heavens and a new earth at the end of time. I don't believe that time is yet.

If you want to read an interesting perspective on how someone does deal with this, I found this article very useful and encouraging.

Zombrex · 09-02-2013 01:13AM

JimiTime wrote: »

A person who wants to be a woman, but is physically a man. Should we now pretend that this is perfectly normal, and that there is nothing wrong? For goodness sake!

Depends on what you mean by "wrong". Tran-gender people are born with mis-matched sexual organs and brain structure. So a tran-gender woman is born with male sexual organs but a brain geared towards traditionally female notions of identify and orientation. Given the prominence of the brain in identity they naturally identify as women, despite having physical male characteristics. After all what are we other than our brains.

How "wrong" that is depends on whether you view nature as black and white, or biology as something fluid and not set to a rigid blue print.

JimiTime · 09-02-2013 02:07AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He went cruising on-line Jimi. We have only his word he didn't hook up. A word that is questionable given he has already been seen to misrepresent himself.

I can believe you are still trying to spin this.

Let me ask you this

Do you believe a person can be cured of homosexuality by prayer?

Even if he did hook up, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE WITH YOUR MISREPRESENTATION. He has been dishonest, no-one is disputing that.

Its this simple. He never said he was cured. You haven't shown any evidence to back up your claim that he said he was cured. Nada, not a jot.
What he DID say, was that he left his homosexual lifestyle, i.e. sleeping with men, behind, but that he continued to struggle with his homosexual desires. THAT IS NOT A CLAIM OF BEING CURED OF HOMOSEXUALITY. Whether he continued to sleep with men does nothing to back up your claim that he said he was CURED. He lied about not desiring the homosexual lifestyle he once lived, but he NEVER said that he was CURED of same sex attraction. On the contrary, he said that he struggled with it ON A DAILY BASIS. To quote the man himself:

"Most of the media posting about me, had not actually read anything that I've written to any measurable degree. They assume that I'm telling people they need to turn "straight" to be loved by God, which is not a message I proclaim. He did not know that I was open with the fact that I still experience same-sex attraction on a daily basis, something that I've been extremely public with."

Do you understand? No talk of being cured.

JimiTime · 09-02-2013 02:17AM

philologos wrote: »

I don't think that Jimi is doing any spinning.

By the by, I don't think any temptation towards sin vanishes overnight. Indeed, some never will, it is just up to us to keep striving towards what is good. I think that Christians should seek a more realistic, a more reasonable, and a more Biblical paradigm to explain our temptation to sin rather than claiming that it will vanish overnight.

Paul explains it powerfully in Romans I think:

Chapters 5 and 6 put forward our new identity in Jesus. Romans 7 gives us a hint of what the present reality will look like even for the Christian, and Romans 8 gives us the roadmap from the present state that we're in to the point by which Christians are glorified and the entire creation is redeemed after the return of Christ.

I believe that God will one day restore us as human beings if we believe and trust in Him, and I believe that God will create a new heavens and a new earth at the end of time. I don't believe that time is yet.

If you want to read an interesting perspective on how someone does deal with this, I found this article very useful and encouraging.

Powerful scripture. The war metaphor really hits the nail on the head!

Bannasidhe · 09-02-2013 09:26AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Even if he did hook up, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE WITH YOUR MISREPRESENTATION. He has been dishonest, no-one is disputing that.

Its this simple. He never said he was cured. You haven't shown any evidence to back up your claim that he said he was cured. Nada, not a jot.
What he DID say, was that he left his homosexual lifestyle, i.e. sleeping with men, behind, but that he continued to struggle with his homosexual desires. THAT IS NOT A CLAIM OF BEING CURED OF HOMOSEXUALITY. Whether he continued to sleep with men does nothing to back up your claim that he said he was CURED. He lied about not desiring the homosexual lifestyle he once lived, but he NEVER said that he was CURED of same sex attraction. On the contrary, he said that he struggled with it ON A DAILY BASIS. To quote the man himself:

"Most of the media posting about me, had not actually read anything that I've written to any measurable degree. They assume that I'm telling people they need to turn "straight" to be loved by God, which is not a message I proclaim. He did not know that I was open with the fact that I still experience same-sex attraction on a daily basis, something that I've been extremely public with."

Do you understand? No talk of being cured.

JIMI STOP SHOUTING.

Do you believe a homosexual can be cured - yes or no.

JimiTime · 09-02-2013 10:28AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

JIMI STOP SHOUTING.

Do you believe a homosexual can be cured - yes or no.

Why are you changing the subject? Is it so that you don't have to deal with your error? Why would you do that? there is nothing wrong with admitting you erred. I can accept that you were at first mistaken, but tbh, it really is looking like you are happy to lie about this for some reason. I hope I'm wrong.

JUST TO REMIND YOU OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT:
You have persistently said that he claimed he was CURED of homosexuality. And it has been pointed out persistently that that was NOT ACTUALLY WHAT HE CLAIMED.
What he DID say, was that he left his homosexual lifestyle, i.e. sleeping with men, behind, but that he continued to struggle with his homosexual desires. THAT IS NOT A CLAIM OF BEING CURED OF HOMOSEXUALITY. If he continued to sleep with men (and he claims that he didn't) it shows his dishonesty, but it certainly does nothing to back up your claim that he said he was CURED. He lied about not desiring the homosexual lifestyle he once lived, but he NEVER said that he was CURED of same sex attraction. On the contrary, he said that he struggled with it ON A DAILY BASIS. To quote the man himself:

"Most of the media posting about me, had not actually read anything that I've written to any measurable degree. They assume that I'm telling people they need to turn "straight" to be loved by God, which is not a message I proclaim. He did not know that I was open with the fact that I still experience same-sex attraction on a daily basis, something that I've been extremely public with."

As soon as you deal with this, I will move on to your next question. Can't be fairer than that.

PS. Like I have already told you, the capitals are for emphasis, NOT SHOUTING (get it?

) I use them to emphasise the pertinent points, as I am operating under the assumption that you are simply not getting it rather than being stubborn and dishonest.

Sin City · 09-02-2013 10:40AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Why are you changing the subject? Is it so that you don't have to admit you lied? I can accept that you were at first mistaken, but there is no excuses for you now.

You said he said he claimed to be cured of homosexuality. You were shown that you are in error, and you have persisted in the misrepresentation. Are you going to admit your error yet? As soon as you deal with this, I will move on to your next question. Can't be fairer than that.

PS. Like I have already told you, the capitals are for emphasis, NOT SHOUTING (get it? ) I use them to emphasise the pertinent points, as you don't seem to be taking anything in.

So he is still gay , so no one can be cured of being homosexual, but you just want them to be celibate?

How would you like to be forced to be celibate because others dont like who your attracted to.

How ridiculous would it be for you to have a wife/girlfried/partner who your friends and family didnt like but would accept ye as long as ye both remained celibate and showed no emotion towards each other just to make them feel better?

PS

Caps is views as shouting
The bold function should be used to emphasis a point

The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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