Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Head The Wall · 03-02-2013 07:24PM

What's you're gross wage majimbo, there's no point giving your net. I presume you are giving it for comparison purposes.

Your post also comes across like you expect a great pension, you are 35 years in a job and I'm guessing you earn around 30k gross. Have you not progressed or received any promotions

barneystinson · 03-02-2013 07:57PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Your post also comes across like you expect a great pension

Where did he say that, what he said was that he'll be getting a pension worth €6.5k - to illustrate the point that not everyone in the PS gets a crazy pension.

Head The Wall wrote: »

you are 35 years in a job and I'm guessing you earn around 30k gross. Have you not progressed or received any promotions

No need to guess if you read his post you'll see he said €692 gross, which is €35,984. And so what if he's never progressed or received any promotions - not everyone in life does / can.

Farmer Pudsey · 03-02-2013 08:08PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Blaming the Unions is the popular thing and what the Govt want you to do.
The nurses didn't bite for the 80% and if the other PS workers do the same then the Govt is in trouble trying to fill positions.
The Unions are right.
Blame the Government.

If you read my posts you would see that I thaught the Graduate Nursing program was unfair I also disagree with increments cuts my opinion that a flat graduated cut accross the PS that hits the higher paid the most is the fairest.

barneystinson wrote: »

Where did he say that, what he said was that he'll be getting a pension worth €6.5k - to illustrate the point that not everyone in the PS gets a crazy pension.

No need to guess if you read his post you'll see he said €692 gross, which is €35,984. And so what if he's never progressed or received any promotions - not everyone in life does / can.

Yes there is anomolies accross the public service I believe that higher earners and retired PS with large pensions should contribute more than they have

sean200 · 03-02-2013 09:59PM

sarumite wrote: »

It could be argued that public sector pay has increased "in a lot of cases" since CPA1 as there hasn't been any reduction in pay for most workers since CPA1 (I am aware new starters are on lower wages, though they currently account for a minority of workers) however there have been payrises (via increments) for many in the PS. That said, the overall public sector paybill has decreased. This has been through a decrease in the numbers working in the PS as opposed to a reduction in public sector pay.

My wage has gone up by approx 20% since 2008 and I am now at the top of my scale and have to say I can afford to take a pay cut.
If it is not a direct pay cut it will not affect me which would be unfair
But after pay is cut one way or another the day of goodwill is gone. One example is that nurse reports for duty 15 min before their shift to allow a hand over and the nurse on duty would remain on for about 15 min after their shift (30 min extra per shift for free). And there are hundreds of other examples
The government dose not realizes how important or how far goodwill goes in the work place.

fall · 03-02-2013 11:26PM

sean200 wrote: »

My wage has gone up by approx 20% since 2008 and I am now at the top of my scale and have to say I can afford to take a pay cut.
If it is not a direct pay cut it will not affect me which would be unfair
But after pay is cut one way or another the day of goodwill is gone. One example is that nurse reports for duty 15 min before their shift to allow a hand over and the nurse on duty would remain on for about 15 min after their shift (30 min extra per shift for free). And there are hundreds of other examples
The government dose not realizes how important or how far goodwill goes in the work place.

That is the problem with cutting increments. The people already at the top of the scale won't be effected at all. There are at least 10 people in my work place ( public sector) out of a staff of 40 who are not permanent and have contracts for less than ten hours spread out over five days. Some weeks they will pick up extra hours other weeks they won't. As it is over five days they cannot sign on. They all have at least 6 years experience. None of them know if they will have work in six months time. They are excellent workers with good attitudes. At least two are heading for Australia as they can't live on their wages. The amount of good will work they do is vast. There are some other staff who are permanent and a disgrace and give public sector workers a bad name. Their sense of entitlement is appalling and they don't deserve their pay cheque. None of them would be affected by a cut in increments.

Good loser · 04-02-2013 12:21AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you read my posts you would see that I thaught the Graduate Nursing program was unfair I also disagree with increments cuts my opinion that a flat graduated cut accross the PS that hits the higher paid the most is the fairest.

I cannot see anything wrong with the proposal. If I was a graduate nurse I would definitely take it. They will have a big advantage with a few years experience. Think of the job bridge folks who work for nothing.

Have heard that with shift allowances they will get around €27 k on the basic €22 k. I know lorry drivers that work for €80 per day.

Liam Doran should keep his nose out of the matter; stick to his own business.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 08:49PM

Good loser wrote: »

I cannot see anything wrong with the proposal. If I was a graduate nurse I would definitely take it. They will have a big advantage with a few years experience. Think of the job bridge folks who work for nothing.

Have heard that with shift allowances they will get around €27 k on the basic €22 k. I know lorry drivers that work for €80 per day.

Liam Doran should keep his nose out of the matter; stick to his own business.

Do you actually think it will stop there ?
Next it will be firemen, soldiers, gardai etc etc at 80% wages.
People are not as stupid as the Government think. They increase their own expenses regularly.
Well done Liam Doran again.

eigrod · 04-02-2013 09:29PM

The GRA has pulled out of the talks

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0204/366076-garda-chiefs-union-to-meet-over-proposed-pay-cuts/

Stormy waters ahead.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 09:31PM

eigrod wrote: »

The GRA has pulled out of the talks

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0204/366076-garda-chiefs-union-to-meet-over-proposed-pay-cuts/

Stormy waters ahead.

Good for them.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-02-2013 09:42PM

Good loser wrote: »

I cannot see anything wrong with the proposal. If I was a graduate nurse I would definitely take it. They will have a big advantage with a few years experience. Think of the job bridge folks who work for nothing.

Have heard that with shift allowances they will get around €27 k on the basic €22 k. I know lorry drivers that work for €80 per day.

Liam Doran should keep his nose out of the matter; stick to his own business.

First of all this was a cheap labour decision what would happen after two years another two year program. There is a difference between Truck drivers and nurses and the amount these drivers get paid is an issue as well.
The reality is that the amount saved would be minimal the real issue with the PS is a graduated cut accross all PS workers not just a selection of workers. This plan will not reduce PS wages accross the board I disagree with selective cuts as the discrimate against some workers.

tayto lover wrote: »

Do you actually think it will stop there ?
Next it will be firemen, soldiers, gardai etc etc at 80% wages.
People are not as stupid as the Government think. They increase their own expenses regularly.
Well done Liam Doran again.

There need to be a fairly sizable reduction in PS pay and pensions and unions have to accept that older staff and PS pensioners will have to contribute as well

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 09:44PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

First of all this was a cheap labour decision what would happen after two years another two year program. There is a difference between Truck drivers and nurses and the amount these drivers get paid is an issue as well.
The reality is that the amount saved would be minimal the real issue with the PS is a graduated cut accross all PS workers not just a selection of workers. This plan will not reduce PS wages accross the board I disagree with selective cuts as the discrimate against some workers.

There need to be a fairly sizable reduction in PS pay and pensions and unions have to accept that older staff and PS pensioners will have to contribute as well

Troubled times ahead with the Garda leaving the CP Talks now.
Expect the teachers to follow their lead.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-02-2013 09:56PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Troubled times ahead with the Garda leaving the CP Talks now.
Expect the teachers to follow their lead.

There is an old saying about inside and outside the tent. I do not think that others will leave the talks. There was an article in a paper over the weekend that Guards have higher than average borrowings that other PS and workers on similar wages. This could be one reason why the guards are so militant. Also they may not understand how little backing they may get for a Blue Flu etc.

Another issue is that it is the trioka that is insisting on cuts spending figures published today show that PS spend is up 7% compared to last year some of this is explained by difference in pay dates however it also the uncontrolable nature of our PS costs. The Trioka know that certain levels of service have to be given in Health and education and natural wastage etc will not get the necessary reductions in costs so it will push hard to get reduction in PS costs.

The next target will be welfare as there will need to be a sizable reduction there too.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 10:00PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is an old saying about inside and outside the tent. I do not think that others will leave the talks. There was an article in a paper over the weekend that Guards have higher than average borrowings that other PS and workers on similar wages. This could be one reason why the guards are so militant. Also they may not understand how little backing they may get for a Blue Flu etc.

Another issue is that it is the trioka that is insisting on cuts spending figures published today show that PS spend is up 7% compared to last year some of this is explained by difference in pay dates however it also the uncontrolable nature of our PS costs. The Trioka know that certain levels of service have to be given in Health and education and natural wastage etc will not get the necessary reductions in costs so it will push hard to get reduction in PS costs.

The next target will be welfare as there will need to be a sizable reduction there too.

I'm sure the lack of support will really annoy them NOT.
The 7% increase i'd also say is overspending in the HSE AGAIN where the Administrators and Management are far too many. But why bother with them, instead target the nurses and junior doctors.

eigrod · 04-02-2013 10:06PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is an old saying about inside and outside the tent. I do not think that others will leave the talks. There was an article in a paper over the weekend that Guards have higher than average borrowings that other PS and workers on similar wages. This could be one reason why the guards are so militant. Also they may not understand how little backing they may get for a Blue Flu etc.

Another issue is that it is the trioka that is insisting on cuts spending figures published today show that PS spend is up 7% compared to last year some of this is explained by difference in pay dates however it also the uncontrolable nature of our PS costs. The Trioka know that certain levels of service have to be given in Health and education and natural wastage etc will not get the necessary reductions in costs so it will push hard to get reduction in PS costs.

The next target will be welfare as there will need to be a sizable reduction there too.

I wouldn't underestimate the level of public sympathy/support for the Gardaí right now.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-02-2013 10:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure the lack of support will really annoy them NOT.
The 7% increase i'd also say is overspending in the HSE AGAIN where the Administrators and Management are far too many. But why bother with them, instead target the nurses and junior doctors.

Public support is critical in winning any industrial action this is where Liam Doran is very good. Notice he is not running out of the tent. He understands that what ever happens he has to have the public support any fucture industrial action.
In 2008 the passport office strike/work to rule had to be shut down by the unions as the public would not support it. The same with the last attempt by the teachers. If the public will not support and are willing to take the pain the Government will stand firm.

You are right about the HSE and it goes accross the whole public service/local government administration and management is a disaster. Yet there are too many of these people and they are on massive money and yet the do not seem to have the ability to run the area's they are in charge of. There inability to manage staff accross the PS is a disaster it is this lax atitude that has crept in over the last 20 years that is a big issue.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-02-2013 10:15PM

eigrod wrote: »

I wouldn't underestimate the level of public sympathy/support for the Gardaí right now.

I would not over estimate either. Remember a member of the public will only tell a Guard what that Guard wants to hear. This is a huge issue that Guards fail to understand. In a pub saturday night you might disagree with a nurse or a teacher you will not disagree with a guard.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 10:16PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Public support is critical in winning any industrial action this is where Liam Doran is very good. Notice he is not running out of the tent. He understands that what ever happens he has to have the public support any fucture industrial action.
In 2008 the passport office strike/work to rule had to be shut down by the unions as the public would not support it. The same with the last attempt by the teachers. If the public will not support and are willing to take the pain the Government will stand firm.

You are right about the HSE and it goes accross the whole public service/local government administration and management is a disaster. Yet there are too many of these people and they are on massive money and yet the do not seem to have the ability to run the area's they are in charge of. There inability to manage staff accross the PS is a disaster it is this lax atitude that has crept in over the last 20 years that is a big issue.

If the teachers, nurses, gardai or firemen went on strike they would have the public support in no time flat.
With parents having to stay at home to mind kids, protect their property THEY would be on the Government's case in 2 weeks.
Their anger at the teachers, gardai or nurses would disappear very fast and be turned on the Govt. The workers might even get more respect when the public see that they cannot do without them.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-02-2013 10:39PM

tayto lover wrote: »

If the teachers, nurses, gardai or firemen went on strike they would have the public support in no time flat.
With parents having to stay at home to mind kids, protect their property THEY would be on the Government's case in 2 weeks.
Their anger at the teachers, gardai or nurses would disappear very fast and be turned on the Govt. The workers might even get more respect when the public see that they cannot do without them.

The only one that might recieve support and I stress might is nurses. Gardai cannot go on strike legally the government might consider it an attempt to subvert the state. The Fireman would be replaced by the army as the bus drivers found out historically. If teachers go on strike they will not recieve support even from alot of other Public Servants.

Most contributors fail to understand that we have not had a strike where workers were left out since the 1980's. Even then you have to go back to the seventies when the Postmen were left out for 3 months. To this day there wages reflect that strike. Most also consider that in a strike situtation that they the workers will control the escalation however it may be the government that escalate it by instructing workers into area's where other people are on strike and suspend them when they refuse.

They also fail to understand that the Trioka will not allow the Government to back down. Also in the case of the Guards in in a blu-flu type situation if sick Guards were instructed to attend work. Again the government cannot be seen to be backed down by the Guards some government minsters may consider that what the Guards are doing at present is subversion of the state.
What if the government get agreement with other unions ( and it looks like they will) and impose these conditions on the Guards where then for the Guards or teachers.

It a long time since we have had a real industrial dispute in this country and few contributors here understand the reality of such a dispute.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 10:53PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The only one that might recieve support and I stress might is nurses. Gardai cannot go on strike legally the government might consider it an attempt to subvert the state. The Fireman would be replaced by the army as the bus drivers found out historically. If teachers go on strike they will not recieve support even from alot of other Public Servants.

Most contributors fail to understand that we have not had a strike where workers were left out since the 1980's. Even then you have to go back to the seventies when the Postmen were left out for 3 months. To this day there wages reflect that strike. Most also consider that in a strike situtation that they the workers will control the escalation however it may be the government that escalate it by instructing workers into area's where other people are on strike and suspend them when they refuse.

They also fail to understand that the Trioka will not allow the Government to back down. Also in the case of the Guards in in a blu-flu type situation if sick Guards were instructed to attend work. Again the government cannot be seen to be backed down by the Guards some government minsters may consider that what the Guards are doing at present is subversion of the state.
What if the government get agreement with other unions ( and it looks like they will) and impose these conditions on the Guards where then for the Guards or teachers.

It a long time since we have had a real industrial dispute in this country and few contributors here understand the reality of such a dispute.

I lived and worked through strikes in my time and have great respect for people who stand up for their rights.
We had a Blue Flu a few years ago and as a result the Gardai got what they wanted i.e. better pay.
They are not looking for better pay now - just a retention of what they have been left with after all the other cuts they took. I spoke to a Garda recently who told me that if they refused to use their own cars or phones the organisation could not function. he said he though a new Blue Flu was very likely in the near future as some of them couldn't pay bills after the existing cuts.
The teachers could disrupt the country if they went out. People would have to miss work to mind their children. The nurses as well.
The army can't do all those jobs either.

woodoo · 04-02-2013 11:33PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I lived and worked through strikes in my time and have great respect for people who stand up for their rights.
We had a Blue Flu a few years ago and as a result the Gardai got what they wanted i.e. better pay.
They are not looking for better pay now - just a retention of what they have been left with after all the other cuts they took. I spoke to a Garda recently who told me that if they refused to use their own cars or phones the organisation could not function. he said he though a new Blue Flu was very likely in the near future as some of them couldn't pay bills after the existing cuts.
The teachers could disrupt the country if they went out. People would have to miss work to mind their children. The nurses as well.
The army can't do all those jobs either.

One of the strongest cards the PS workers have is that they have been covering the work of all those that have retired/left and have not been replaced. In a work to rule there would be major problems as people refuse to continue doing that extra work.

noodler · 04-02-2013 11:56PM

It is amazing to see people engage in faux debates but always returning to threaten the "insiders Vs outsiders" card in the end.

tayto lover · 04-02-2013 11:58PM

noodler wrote: »

It is amazing to see people engage in faux debates but always returning to threaten the "insiders Vs outsiders" card in the end.

I was just saying the same.
The Government and their agents have succeeded in polarizing the country.

noodler · 05-02-2013 12:04AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I was just saying the same.
The Government and their agents have succeeded in polarizing the country.

Yeah, when the issue of pay cuts is brought up, a common argument here is that welfare should be cut, child benefit should be cut, income tax should increased etc etc - anything to avoid such cuts.

Yet, the "don't let the Government turn us against each other" argument is never used to advocate protecting welfare or other non-PS pay cuts.

tayto lover · 05-02-2013 12:11AM

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, when the issue of pay cuts is brought up, a common argument here is that welfare should be cut, child benefit should be cut, income tax should increased etc etc - anything to avoid such cuts.

Yet, the "don't let the Government turn us against each other" argument is never used to advocate protecting welfare or other non-PS pay cuts.

A reduction in PS pay will eventually be a reduction in Private Sector pay of which i'm one.
How long would it be before business owners pointed out to their workers that they were too well off compared to the Public Sector and reduce their wages?
I've seen it all before in my long working life. It's human nature for bosses to want more profits.

hmmm · 05-02-2013 12:11AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The only one that might recieve support and I stress might is nurses.

The last nurses strike was a disaster for nurses, they received minimal public support and went back to work with only a face saving deal. And that was back in the good days.

tayto lover · 05-02-2013 12:13AM

hmmm wrote: »

The last nurses strike was a disaster for nurses, they received minimal public support and went back to work with only a face saving deal. And that was back in the good days.

The whole PS should go out together. Now that would have some effect.

woodoo · 05-02-2013 12:17AM

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, when the issue of pay cuts is brought up, a common argument here is that welfare should be cut, child benefit should be cut, income tax should increased etc etc - anything to avoid such cuts.

Yet, the "don't let the Government turn us against each other" argument is never used to advocate protecting welfare or other non-PS pay cuts.

The PS will offer some help but we won't be walked over. Perhaps cuts in Allowances, Travel etc. This is on top of the other cuts we have had. People forget that we have had the income levy, PRSI changes, household charge, USC and will have the property tax, motor tax rises etc just like everyone else. We have also had the pension levy and the paycut. It all adds up.

noodler · 05-02-2013 12:17AM

tayto lover wrote: »

A reduction in PS pay will eventually be a reduction in Private Sector pay of which i'm one.
How long would it be before business owners pointed out to their workers that they were too well off compared to the Public Sector and reduce their wages?
I've seen it all before in my long working life. It's human nature for bosses to want more profits.

I have seen that line a couple of times from yourself.

I won't even address it, simply say that the deficit and the unexplained Public Private pay gap are the main reasons for addressing the situation.

woodoo · 05-02-2013 12:18AM

hmmm wrote: »

The last nurses strike was a disaster for nurses, they received minimal public support and went back to work with only a face saving deal. And that was back in the good days.

They got their hours reduced from 39 to 37 and half.

noodler · 05-02-2013 12:20AM

woodoo wrote: »

The PS will offer some help but we won't be walked over. Perhaps cuts in Allowances, Travel etc. This is on top of the other cuts we have had. People forget that we have had the income levy, PRSI changes, household charge, USC and will have the property tax, motor tax rises etc just like everyone else. We have also had the pension levy and the paycut. It all adds up.

Well over 300,000 are unemployed, about twice that have no pensions.

I wouldn't wish what has happened to PS pay in Greece and Portugal to happen here but bear in mind those cuts have been more severe despite the fact our pay bill increased far more during the 2000s and despite the fact we are still running a higher deficit.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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