Widower sues airline for €5m over death of obese wife refused seat on three flights

Cavehill Red · 30-01-2013 06:27AM

I'm stunned at the amount of defensive commentary on this thread. As far as I'm concerned, given the fact that most of the world is short of food, it's obscene and immoral for any human being to end up that sort of morbidly obese.
The only negligence here is her own. She ate herself to death. Her grieving husband is looking in all the wrong places to blame. He should have looked at her when she was 100, 150, 175, 200, 250 pounds in weight, and he should have looked at himself on all those occasions and thought, how am I helping the woman I love by facilitating her killing herself by excessive gorging?
I've no time for BS like fat rights or respect for the obese. This is almost always a self-inflicted condition, especially when it gets to the extent of this woman's health problems. As far as I can see, the airlines did absolutely everything possible to accommodate this woman, including inconveniencing hundreds of normal-sized passengers waiting to travel.
Her grieving husband likely feels guilty and is lashing out in pain. But the cause of all this is his wife herself, and to an extent him too in facilitating her.

BusyMumof3 · 30-01-2013 07:18AM

Yes, most of the world is short of food. But this is because of the likes of corrupt governments buying armaments while leaving their people to starve, or trade embargos and sanctions, or overpopulation. Ethiopia is starving again, and yet the women are still having families of 9. I'm not saying its right or fair. But you cannot blame a fat person you do not even know for these problems. I know some individuals consider fat people undeserving of rights or respect but personally I feel that this has more to do with their own attitudinal problems. If a woman weighs 100 lbs/7stone she may in fact need to put on some weight, and at 150lbs/10.5stone a tall woman will be fine. And being that we are living in the 21st century and few modern homes have dungeons, how does a husband stop an adult woman from eating as she wishes?
The point people were trying to explain was that while obesity most certainly IS self inflicted, the cause is rarely just greed. Thats not BS.

seamus · 30-01-2013 10:04AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Clearly you haven't a clue going by that statement. It is not easy for the obese to lose a lot of weight. Research has shown that when someone gets to a certain size the body resets what it believes its setpoint is and raises it. Think of it like an elastic band, you can stretch it to a point, but beyond that point it doesn't go back to the length it was. This is compounded by aging and long it took to pile on the pounds. The vast majority of obese people who reduce weight by your plan of "dieting alone" put it all back on and often extra fat. In the 80's a doctor did a trial with an obese man who basically didn't eat for a year, liquid nutrients and pills, basically living off his fat stores and guess what he didn't end up a skinny person at the end of it. Even those who get their stomach stapled get an initial and obvious drop in size, but when looked at 3 or 5 years down the line they've usually crept up in weight.

Wibbs, can you link to these studies, PM me even?

I've heard this before, "Obese people rarely lose weight permanently and 99.99% of the time they put it all back within five years".
Yet I know a number of formerly obese people, including myself, who have lost practically all their weight and kept it off for five years or more.

So either I occupy an exceptionally improbable position of being and knowing obese people who've bucked the trend, or these results are being selectively quoted. For example, clinical obesity is BMI over 30. Which isn't the "obese" that we all picture of a an exceptionally large doughball waddling around the place. I've also heard these studies quoted as "obese people who lose some weight are likely to put it back on", which is a very different thing than losing weight completely.

I'm also skeptical of this "setpoint" theory because it assumes the body has the properties of an elastic and can't reset itself back down again. So, can haz link pls?

Wibbs · 30-01-2013 11:08AM

seamus wrote: »

I'm also skeptical of this "setpoint" theory because it assumes the body has the properties of an elastic and can't reset itself back down again. So, can haz link pls?

No worries S

Here's a longwinded one using rats and mice. Basically rats who became obese on a crap fat laden diet develop permanent changes to the hypothalamus. This among other things has a large role in regulating metabolism and feelings of hunger or being sated.

Oh yea S I too know people who've lost weight and kept it off. There seemed to be a broad pattern though. They were pretty much all young, under 25. Makes sense as the body is more flexible at that age and I would reckon the "setpoint" is less set. Plus many of them it was "puppy fat" kinda thing. When they were at or around school leaving age they changed lifestyles.

Some put the fat on quite rapidly. Over a few years and hadn't been particularly heavy before that. One commonality I noted was these tended to happen when they left home and started cooking for themselves, or not as the case usually was, relying on Chinner dinners(and often dropping into the mammy for the odd home feed too).

More men than women were successful. Again makes sense as men have more muscle mass(which eats calories just sitting there) and have far more testosterone which builds muscle and burns fat. Women have more subcutaneous fat too. Plus body image is more a focus for women in their peers, the media and society(though that's changing). Anecdotally I've noted far more women who "comfort eat" as a coping mechanism. They also seem to discuss food far more in general.

They weren't that obese in the first place. Overweight yes, even pretty fat, but not your stereotypical "American" obese.

Gummy Panda · 30-01-2013 11:14AM

Wibbs wrote: »

No worries S Here's a longwinded one using rats and mice. Basically rats who became obese on a crap fat laden diet develop permanent changes to the hypothalamus. This among other things has a large role in regulating metabolism and feelings of hunger or being sated.

Oh yea S I too know people who've lost weight and kept it off. There seemed to be a broad pattern though. They were pretty much all young, under 25. Makes sense as the body is more flexible at that age and I would reckon the "setpoint" is less set. Plus many of them it was "puppy fat" kinda thing. When they were at or around school leaving age they changed lifestyles.

Some put the fat on quite rapidly. Over a few years and hadn't been particularly heavy before that. One commonality I noted was these tended to happen when they left home and started cooking for themselves, or not as the case usually was, relying on Chinner dinners(and often dropping into the mammy for the odd home feed too).

More men than women were successful. Again makes sense as men have more muscle mass(which eats calories just sitting there) and have far more testosterone which builds muscle and burns fat. Women have more subcutaneous fat too. Plus body image is more a focus for women in their peers, the media and society(though that's changing). Anecdotally I've noted far more women who "comfort eat" as a coping mechanism. They also seem to discuss food far more in general.

They weren't that obese in the first place. Overweight yes, even pretty fat, but not your stereotypical "American" obese.

Wibbs I am disappoint. I hate rat studies.

oldyouth · 30-01-2013 11:19AM

Obesity is usually as a result of excessive eating, but the cause of that often lies elsewhere just like it is for other addictions such as drink, drugs and gambling.

The couple had a holiday home abroad, so it is obvious they had a few bob. Why
wasn't it used to help this woman with her problem? It may sound harsh but it looks to me as if they didn't take personal responsibility and the husband is looking for someone else to blame

ghogie91 · 30-01-2013 12:43PM

What abour ryanair charging extra if your carry on is 2 KG heavier

Me with my carry on luggage and the 2 extra KG i would have to pay for is approx 104KG lighter than that woman alone!!

Dead right not to let her get on the flight

TheBa · 30-01-2013 01:17PM

up for anything wrote: »

The mockery and contempt displayed here for the woman because she was obese is sad.

The mockery and contempt stems from the husband's stupid sense of entitlement here. 5 million quid? The airlines didn't kill the woman, obesity did.

Maybe all the other customers on those 3 flights can sue him for delaying their flight? Seems to be the way of the world these days.

miss no stars · 30-01-2013 01:26PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Air travel is long, tiring, and comes with a slew of health risks. Doctor's routinely advise people not to travel by plane when their health is an issue.

Even if this lady weren't obese and her physical size wasn't an issue; the airline should still be able to refuse to sell her a ticket. There is a very real cost associated with having people get sick and/or die on your plane.

This woman must have been on death's door if she died because she couldn't get a ticket.

Had they let her on and she died in flight, her family would be suing because they shouldn't have let her on. And it would have ruined countless other people's flights/days and possibly caused emotional stress for those who don't want to see an obese lady die in front of them.

This is the crux of it really.

Delta couldn't get her on the plane and KLM and Lufthansa couldn't get her into her seat. It's interesting that of the three airlines, the only one that actually appears to have equipment anywhere designed to deal with such obscenely overweight people is the American one.

In two instances they tried their best to get her on and after 30 minutes of trying to get her to her seat (and failing) the Captains had to take decisions that she wasn't flying as they had tried all they could to get her in her seat but just couldn't do it. If she can't be restrained in her seat she's a DANGER to everyone on the flight.

The Captain also has a responsibility for the safety of everyone on board. They will refuse passangers who are 9 months pregnant. Why? Because it's not medically safe for them to fly. They will refuse those who have severe cardiac problems. Why? Same reason. Not safe for them to fly. They tried to get this woman on board as best as they could. They couldn't get her into her seat, leaving no way of restraining her in flight and so it was unsafe for her, and for everyone around her, for her to fly.

The airlines aren't responsible here. She didn't die because she couldn't get on board an airplane, she died because she was super obese and didn't access medical care in a timely manner. They waited 2 WEEKS after being told to return home for medical care to attempt to do so. 2 weeks would be enough time to try (and fail) to fly home, take a train to Rotterdam or elsewhere, then take a ship home to America.

This was not the fault of the airlines. They did what they could, they tried their best to get her on board but ultimately it came down to the fact that she could not safely remain on board as she could not get into her seat. The fault lies here with becomming that obese and THEN not attending to medical needs in a timely fashion.

It's a loss of life and very sad for those who know her, and for the opportunities and experiences that are now closed to her. The potential for her to continue with her life, improve her health and be happy are gone and there's no denying that it's sad. But NOBODY should have to accept responsibility for a death that was not their doing.

If she HAD to fly THAT urgently (which it doesn't appear they knew, given the 2 week wait to attempt to go home) she should have gotten an air ambulance.

starlings · 30-01-2013 01:29PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm stunned at the amount of defensive commentary on this thread. As far as I'm concerned, given the fact that most of the world is short of food, it's obscene and immoral for any human being to end up that sort of morbidly obese.
The only negligence here is her own. She ate herself to death. Her grieving husband is looking in all the wrong places to blame. He should have looked at her when she was 100, 150, 175, 200, 250 pounds in weight, and he should have looked at himself on all those occasions and thought, how am I helping the woman I love by facilitating her killing herself by excessive gorging?
I've no time for BS like fat rights or respect for the obese. This is almost always a self-inflicted condition, especially when it gets to the extent of this woman's health problems. As far as I can see, the airlines did absolutely everything possible to accommodate this woman, including inconveniencing hundreds of normal-sized passengers waiting to travel.
Her grieving husband likely feels guilty and is lashing out in pain. But the cause of all this is his wife herself, and to an extent him too in facilitating her.

I agree that it is up to the person themselves to try to change, and I think you're right that the husband is lashing out. But since they have suffered enough, I don't think judging them morally is going to do anything at all to help others overcome obesity, dependancy and facilitation through guilt or helplessness. This could well have the opposite effect. Since we don't know them or the nature of their problems, it should be as easy to be kind as to be judgemental.

It's a cautionary tale, at best.

TheBa · 30-01-2013 02:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

well done, every american is stupid/fat just like every Irish person is a terrorist and or an alcoholic

I thought all terrorists came from the middle east? And Irish people are all drunks, not all alcoholics :P

Cavehill Red · 30-01-2013 03:00PM

starlings wrote: »

I agree that it is up to the person themselves to try to change, and I think you're right that the husband is lashing out. But since they have suffered enough, I don't think judging them morally is going to do anything at all to help others overcome obesity, dependancy and facilitation through guilt or helplessness. This could well have the opposite effect. Since we don't know them or the nature of their problems, it should be as easy to be kind as to be judgemental.

It's a cautionary tale, at best.

Well, there's the question as to whether it is my obligation to assist imaginary others who might be reading what I write here in overcoming their obesity. I don't personally feel that obligation.
As for judging the couple in this story, I don't apologise for that. They invited judgement when the husband sought to sue well-meaning airlines that tried their best to accommodate his wife, even though all the culpability here lies on his and his wife's own shoulders.
I would be much more sympathetic to his loss if he did not try to implicate others in it. I don't require that he assume responsibility, though I feel he does share responsibility for his wife's condition and ultimate death. But at the very least, he should acknowledge that her condition and death certainly weren't the fault of anyone outside his own bedroom.

Mugser · 30-01-2013 06:12PM

I remember being on an internal flight in the US last year and before we took off the 'lady' who was sitting directly behind me called the stewardess and asked for an extension for her seatbelt as she couldn't close the fitted seatbelt.
So I decided to adjust my seatbelt to it's loosest to see what size it extended to:eek::eek:

Just then the same lady called the stewardess again and asked for a second extension!!!!

starlings · 30-01-2013 06:26PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Well, there's the question as to whether it is my obligation to assist imaginary others who might be reading what I write here in overcoming their obesity. I don't personally feel that obligation.
As for judging the couple in this story, I don't apologise for that. They invited judgement when the husband sought to sue well-meaning airlines that tried their best to accommodate his wife, even though all the culpability here lies on his and his wife's own shoulders.
I would be much more sympathetic to his loss if he did not try to implicate others in it. I don't require that he assume responsibility, though I feel he does share responsibility for his wife's condition and ultimate death. But at the very least, he should acknowledge that her condition and death certainly weren't the fault of anyone outside his own bedroom.

Fair enough, Cavehill Red, it's not your responsibility to make allowances or sympathise with a stranger or even someone you know who is obese.

When I used to smoke I was constantly told how unhealthy the habit was, but once someone gave me such a stern and angry lecture about it that I didn't hear "it's a disgusting habit" but "you are disgusting". And all I wanted to do was get away from her, curl up in a corner, and smoke. Which I did.

One of Aesop's fables is about the sun and the wind having a bet as to who is stronger. They test this by trying to rip the coat off a man who is out walking. The wind blows and blows, but the stronger it gets, the tighter the man holds on to his coat. Then the sun comes out, the man warms up, and takes off his coat.

I didn't stop smoking because people told me to; I stopped because it became inconvenient and I could see what I was missing out on. The woman in this case was handicapped by her weight, not the airline, so I agree with you that the lawsuit is misfiring the blame. Hopefully the case will bring tighter guidelines and protocols for seriously obese passengers - even if it means extra expense or alternative transport for them, so that other passengers aren't inconvenienced to the point of bearing grudges against all fat people. Travelling like everyone else might prove an incentive to lose weight.

But I still don't think she was immoral.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-01-2013 08:24PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, given the fact that most of the world is short of food,

There is no food shortage.

Some people accumulate wealth, while others can barely afford to pay as much as the food makes on the biofuel market.

Any "food shortage" could be totally eliminated forever if 100 people donated 100 days of their middle of the recession income.

http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times

Also are there even passenger ships that cross the Atlantic in winter anymore ?

Cavehill Red · 30-01-2013 08:29PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There is no food shortage.

The 300,000 children who will die of hunger this week might think otherwise. Whether an issue of shortage, distribution, greed or otherwise, I don't consider it a 'right' to be morbidly obese in a world where 15 million children die from lack of food annually, and up to a billion suffer illness as a result of malnutrition.
And yes, there are passenger ships that cross the Atlantic.

Cavehill Red · 30-01-2013 08:35PM

starlings wrote: »

Fair enough, Cavehill Red, it's not your responsibility to make allowances or sympathise with a stranger or even someone you know who is obese.

No, it's not. Nor is it my responsibility to in any way encourage you or anyone else to lose weight. It's up to individuals what their calorific intake is, how they manage their health, and whether they continue with behaviours they know will harm themselves or not.
I think in the case of a child or a partner or a very close friend I would be motivated by concern to intervene in some format out of love for them. That's the degree to which I hold the husband responsible in this case.
Perhaps he did. Perhaps he didn't. However, he's not responsible for his wife's overeating and subsequent health issues. There is no implication he was force-feeding her.
Fundamentally, he's grieving, and I'd be inclined to dismiss these actions as those of a mourning individual, except it's going to cost him money, because he's going to lose this case and have to pay the legal costs of two or three airlines, which won't be cheap.
There is absolutely no doubt that no one, least of all airlines which went beyond the call of duty or care to respond to the exceptional needs of a single passenger, is responsible for this woman's death except herself.

miss_shadow · 30-01-2013 08:44PM

starlings wrote: »

I agree that it is up to the person themselves to try to change, and I think you're right that the husband is lashing out. But since they have suffered enough, I don't think judging them morally is going to do anything at all to help others overcome obesity, dependancy and facilitation through guilt or helplessness. This could well have the opposite effect. Since we don't know them or the nature of their problems, it should be as easy to be kind as to be judgemental.

It's a cautionary tale, at best.

Shouldn't he be mourning the death of his wife instead of suing for a few squid. Talk about trying to find blame, this just breathes of a slimy cheapskate using his wife's death as a way to get money, what a joke!

Not only did they both know she was quite sick with her obesity, they fly to a different country! :-/
She wasn't too sick to attend a hospital in the country :-/
They flew from America but couldn't get back fly home on the same plane :-/

She only had one leg :-/

starlings · 30-01-2013 09:12PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, it's not. Nor is it my responsibility to in any way encourage you or anyone else to lose weight. It's up to individuals what their calorific intake is, how they manage their health, and whether they continue with behaviours they know will harm themselves or not.
I think in the case of a child or a partner or a very close friend I would be motivated by concern to intervene in some format out of love for them. That's the degree to which I hold the husband responsible in this case.
Perhaps he did. Perhaps he didn't. However, he's not responsible for his wife's overeating and subsequent health issues. There is no implication he was force-feeding her.
Fundamentally, he's grieving, and I'd be inclined to dismiss these actions as those of a mourning individual, except it's going to cost him money, because he's going to lose this case and have to pay the legal costs of two or three airlines, which won't be cheap.
There is absolutely no doubt that no one, least of all airlines which went beyond the call of duty or care to respond to the exceptional needs of a single passenger, is responsible for this woman's death except herself.

Can't argue with any of that. I think we're mostly disagreeing to agree.

Madam_X · 30-01-2013 09:22PM

Wonder was he a feeder. She was over 30 stone - it's true there's no excuse for it. I stand by my view though that while it's reasonable to be stern in relation to people that weight, it is not reasonable to be cruel and to oversimplify their situation. Saying "Just exercise and eat less" is pointless. They know that, and wouldn't be the weight they are if it was that straightforward. The mental aspect needs to be sorted out too.

Ruudi_Mentari · 30-01-2013 09:48PM

Obesity is one thing but people can have it in their genes though, to be more robust. Peoples hormones going crazy particularly after childbirth or that is another thing.

if people are 'comfort' eating though maybe a change of consumable crutch may be of benefit?! I have to earn an appetite, gets me moving too sure opposite kind of weight battle but the same means ultimately may be the same solution

30-01-2013 10:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You wonder how a person can let themselves go so far.

I can understand how a person could get that far, but this woman seems to be at a point where she couldn't possibly have been supplying herself with all that food. She could hardly get around, so between shopping, reaching shelves and managing to use a hob I doubt she was unaided in her habit.

squod wrote: »

Think the woman had an agreement and made arrangements for herself with the airline. Don't think it was good enough for the airlines to try and fail. The issue should have been reported, escallated and a resolution (if possible) found.

They were able to get her over there. I'd say it's the first airline's, the husband's and her own lack of foresight that led to her ending up in a country without the facility to bring her back. Now that she got stuck there and has died, I think it should be a lesson learned situation rather than a "let's sue" scenario. As for finding a resolution, I think it's unreasonable to expect an airline to spend god knows how much on equipment to lift her to her seat when she's clearly a very very rare, if not one time case.

The issue of getting back should have been addressed long before she got there in the first place.

Doc Ruby · 30-01-2013 10:18PM

Madam_X wrote: »

Wonder was he a feeder.

This is real thing by the way. I know a woman, an Australian, who scored a doctor for herself and admitted to me that she was a 'feeder', intent on making him fat so other women wouldn't find him attractive.

And people wonder why I'm dead against marriage.

1ZRed · 30-01-2013 10:27PM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

This is real thing by the way. I know a woman, an Australian, who scored a doctor for herself and admitted to me that she was a 'feeder', intent on making him fat so other women wouldn't find him attractive.

And people wonder why I'm dead against marriage.

What a cunt. If it was me, and I found out, she'd be thrown out an her arse.

But isolated incidents like that are not a true reflection on marriage as a whole to be fair.

Doc Ruby · 30-01-2013 10:57PM

1ZRed wrote: »

But isolated incidents like that are not a true reflection on marriage as a whole to be fair.

Some say the institution strengthens a relationship when times are hard, and maybe it does, but in my experience 90% of the time it's just used as an excuse to take liberties that a partner knows would get them dumped faster than a high fibre meal if they weren't married. That's just the tip of the iceberg, but anyways this is offtopic...

Fox Mulder · 30-01-2013 11:48PM

It's tragic seeing a person in that condition particularly when you see her in the video. What I don't understand is how these hyper obese people are able to maintain this type of weight. In my own (probably misguided) opinion it is their partners who to a degree are partially responsible. This woman wasn't capable of preparing or shopping for her own meals. Her husband was providing her with excessive portions of food. It is bordering on criminally negligible.

Chemical Burn · 31-01-2013 07:51PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Could they not have sent her by air freight if they were that stuck?

Lando Griffin wrote: »

She had an amputated leg FFS; how hungry can one get.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

They're going to make a movie out of it... "Cakes on a plane".

Folks, a human being just died, regardless of whether it was self-inflicted or not, show some remorse. Spineless monsters.

Chemical Burn · 13-02-2013 06:45PM

She must've been very Hungary.

I'll get my coat

hardCopy · 13-02-2013 06:54PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

She must've been very Hungary.

I'll get my coat

That's the best you could come up with after two weeks?

mardybumbum · 13-02-2013 06:55PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Folks, a human being just died, regardless of whether it was self-inflicted or not, show some remorse. Spineless monsters.

Chemical Burn wrote: »

She must've been very Hungary.

I'll get my coat

Widower sues airline for €5m over death of obese wife refused seat on three flights

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