Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

mel.b · 29-01-2013 11:06PM

snubbleste wrote: »

How is there a deduction in your salary if you leave the country

I'm not 100% sure what you mean? Do you mean for example, you do your degree, then head overseas, such as on a WHV? In this case you don't pay anything back while you are not earning and paying Australian tax, but when you return and are over the income threshold you start paying it again. So in the case of ireland, people who immigrate and later return would still pay it. You do get exceptions though...a friends sister went to the uk when she finished uni. Stayed there for a number of years then brought her English husband home to Oz. promptly had a baby and has been a stay at home mum ever since, so she has never paid back anything. However even if she re-enters the workforce when the kids are grown up, if she earns over the threshold ( in any sort of job) she will be repaying some of the debt.

29-01-2013 11:10PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

College isn't free. Fees are 3,500, rent, food, books, printing money, etc, Yeah there are those who take the piss with their courses and drink excessively, etc but they would do that even if they weren't in college.

Let them do it on their own money so

K-9 · 29-01-2013 11:14PM

Also under the old system those who paid could get a tax rebate through the covenant system so that takes care of the "I pay a fortune in tax" argument, yep, you'll get a tax refund based on your marginal rate of tax, we actually still have something similar for certain courses.

Herb Powell · 29-01-2013 11:15PM

I have no idea, but is it perhaps a possibility that the "middle-income" demographic/bracket has increased massively, so as to skew the figures?

Again, I honestly do not know, just asking the question.

sock puppet · 29-01-2013 11:18PM

Larianne wrote: »

And just regards saying Arts degrees are a waste of money. I think at the moment, most courses unless they are in IT or Languages, are a waste of money.

That's an awfully defeatist attitude. There are also still good opportunities in financial services and they will generally hire from most degree courses. If that's not for you IT companies still need sales, marketing and HR staff.

I know you said you're doing health so not really aimed at you if you want to work there.

wolfpawnat · 29-01-2013 11:19PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Let them do it on their own money so

But the most of them are. Not everyone gets a grant. And why should those who have availed of the system before now get to take it away from others. How about those who got the fees before now pay them back since they are earning, you won't see them rushing to do that.

We pay for my partners college expenses ourselves, no grant, no government assistance for him, and it is very very hard with a tiny income, but it is our way out of this situation. It is crippling.

K-9 · 29-01-2013 11:21PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

I have no idea, but is it perhaps a possibility that the "middle-income" demographic/bracket has increased massively, so as to skew the figures?

Again, I honestly do not know, just asking the question.

But you've also had a huge increase in numbers in third level from 20 years ago under the old system, the percentages hasn't changed much. To me it seems we brought in a new system that is lauded by many and treated as a secret cow, but I can't see that much of a difference from the old system.

This idea the disadvantaged will suffer just doesn't stand up, those that get free fees now will get hit in their pockets, that's about it. Go back to something similar to the old system, tweak it and make the registration fee a tax deductible expense.

CatEyed92 · 29-01-2013 11:22PM

What need's to happen:

- CAO points + an interview for course. I believe this would sort the serious people from the bluffers.
Let's be real here. You have people who struggle to get their course, such as myself to get nursing! Yet you have people who "might like it" take those people's places for the sake of it only to drop out. So an interview and CAO points is the best solution here.

- Half the number of big course e.g Arts. I did Arts last year. Full of people who were floating just to be somewhere!

- Scrap SUSI and grants. Colleges should loan students the fee's and then the graduate pays loan back when earning steady income!

- Monitor students properly. Universities are partially to blame for people falling by the wayside. The departments need to get to know student's in their courses and advise them on study etc. Provided, numbers are halved etc. > off topic :rolleyes:

melekalikimaka · 29-01-2013 11:24PM

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Of course we should have free fees. Why should college be reserved for the wealthy???

why should it be subsidised by the public, its not a right, its a privilege, get a loan.

Larianne · 29-01-2013 11:24PM

sock puppet wrote: »

That's an awfully defeatist attitude. There are also still good opportunities in financial services and they will generally hire from most degree courses. If that's not for you IT companies still need sales, marketing and HR staff.

I don't think so. I'm just being realistic. In my case, I'd definitely be overlooked compared to others with qualifications in areas closer to the industry employing. It's already saturated with graduates who cannot find work and those who have been made redundant.

To be honest, the way the HSE is at the moment, it's looking more likely that I want to emigrate rather than work in the Irish healthcare system. Sad as that is.

Just seen your edit.. It may be viable for some but certainly not all graduates.

K-9 · 29-01-2013 11:26PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But the most of them are. Not everyone gets a grant. And why should those who have availed of the system before now get to take it away from others. How about those who got the fees before now pay them back since they are earning, you won't see them rushing to do that.

Those who benefited under the old grant system would benefit under the existing one, those who benefited from free fees well, they'd little say in voting for a change and if they've children, will pay for it that way. So nope, those who benefited will pay for their opinion when it comes to stumping up the fees in 20/30 years time

We pay for my partners college expenses ourselves, no grant, no government assistance for him, and it is very very hard with a tiny income, but it is our way out of this situation. It is crippling.

A means test system should take account of people struggling and give them some help, the grants system would need updating with any reforms.

melekalikimaka · 29-01-2013 11:27PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But the most of them are. Not everyone gets a grant. And why should those who have availed of the system before now get to take it away from others. How about those who got the fees before now pay them back since they are earning, you won't see them rushing to do that.

We pay for my partners college expenses ourselves, no grant, no government assistance for him, and it is very very hard with a tiny income, but it is our way out of this situation. It is crippling.

i paid 5,500 fees for 4 years, myself, worked part time and saved in the summer, luckily I lived at home. Just bring in a loan system like the UK, then everyone is happy, we cant afford to be subsidising the luxuries of third level education, have a look at how many countries actually do.

A disgusting sense of self entitlement in this country still.

Some people will never learn

CatEyed92 · 29-01-2013 11:35PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

why should it be subsidised by the public.

Yeah, in full agreement! I think however, the universities should invest more in people!

Everyone who wants to continue education seriously, genuinely is a hero and should be invested in along with a pat on the back!
Instead, people are being punished for wanting to better themselves and contribute to society in the future!
That's what I want! I want to stay in Ireland, I want to work and live a fair life. I want to give back to society and pull my weight!

There are a lot of bad eggs abusing the free's fee's and taking places etc but they're are genuine people who are getting punished for being decent in the middle of all of it! The students who save, work hard, study hard, struggle in the name of a future!!!!!

Let's not tar evey student with the same brush!
People are entitled to be educated if they are serious!

K-9 · 29-01-2013 11:35PM

Ms. Pingui wrote:

Of course we should have free fees. Why should college be reserved for the wealthy???

The poorer sections of society will still get free fees and a grant, that's what happened under the old system. The wealthy just pay the fees. Free fees has made it easier for the wealthy to afford third level, private education and grinds.

melekalikimaka · 29-01-2013 11:37PM

CatEyed92 wrote: »

People are entitled to be educated if they are serious!

not third level. and not for free

wolfpawnat · 29-01-2013 11:37PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i paid 5,500 fees for 4 years, myself, worked part time and saved in the summer, luckily I lived at home. Just bring in a loan system like the UK, then everyone is happy, we cant afford to be subsidising the luxuries of third level education, have a look at how many countries actually do.

A disgusting sense of self entitlement in this country still.

Some people will never learn

We have given RCSI 10 grand in fees and UCD 40 so far. So we know what it is like, we are lucky (it feels weird saying that since it was inheritance and came because of the end of his fathers life) that there was money to do it. Some courses do not allow for working. Veterinary you HAVE to do unpaid work experience all summer and holidays long. It is a requirement for the course. My partner leaves here at 7 am and is back at 7-8:30 at night, and has to catch up on study at weekends. I am sure other courses are similar in many ways. There is just no time to work.

A good education to create a good work force to pay larger sums of tax for the betterment of the country is not a sense of entitlement, it is just plain good economics IF the courses aren't piss-taking.

Loans wouldn't work in this economy, people are emigrating and may not repay them. Or some case would come to the courts and it would excuse the debt, you just know it wouldn't work. Also Johnny from the council estate wouldn't get a loan based on his background even though he may have gotten 550 in the LC and could be a great Pharmacist. The loans would have to be forced and the banks won't let that.

CatEyed92 · 29-01-2013 11:38PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not third level. and not for free

No not for free? In my post, I said everyone - should pay BACK uni's after graduating!

sock puppet · 29-01-2013 11:43PM

brummytom wrote: »

I think there should be less emphasis placed on degrees. I'm currently at uni, paying £8,000 a year, mainly because it's impossible to get a half decent job without a degree.

I don't think access to education should be limited by wealth (of lack of), but I do think there is a mentality (and probable need) that everyone has to go to uni, even to do pretty Mickey Mouse courses.

Would I be right in saying it's a little less like that in the UK than in Ireland? One thing I noticed when applying for graduate jobs is that many big companies in the UK have a programme for school leavers who don't want to go to college. Haven't come across anything like that in Ireland.

pragmatic1 · 30-01-2013 12:03AM

The more educated a society we have the better.

twinQuins · 30-01-2013 12:11AM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

why should it be subsidised by the public, its not a right, its a privilege, get a loan.

I disagree. I'm curious to see this trite opinion expanded on, if only once.

magicherbs · 30-01-2013 12:22AM

I think third level needs a very thorough overhaul. Too many mickey mouse courses that are being publicly funded. There should be more vocational style 3rd level colleges, courses set up that mix up lectures , projects and work placements, basically like the apprenticeships. I know DCU and UL do long periods of work experience but it should be better integrated.

Anybody that has been involved academically abroad can testify that the standard of skill / knowledge from the Irish graduate is terribly low - don't let higher educational bodies tell you otherwise. People coming out with degrees left right and centre who are completely unfit for the work place.

Having said that, you need space for intellectualism. Longer courses, more academic in nature, less work placement and more independent research / self directed study.

I think we need to fundamentally accept we are no longer the islands of saints and scholars but rather sinners and gob****es.

magicherbs · 30-01-2013 12:23AM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

The more educated a society we have the better.

you are confusing receiving a degree/ diploma and being educated. If independent examiners (legitimate independent) and audited these graduates you'd find half of them don't know what they are being certified as knowing.

melekalikimaka · 30-01-2013 12:27AM

twinQuins wrote: »

I disagree. I'm curious to see this trite opinion expanded on, if only once.

i refer to third level education not second, do you honestly feel free or subsidised 3rd level education is a right?

magicherbs · 30-01-2013 12:30AM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i refer to third level education not second, do you honestly feel free or subsidised 3rd level education is a right?

in a society that wasn't banjaxed , yes it would be nice to say nth level education and health care is free. but we live in a world where we have to prioritise first and second level, thank god we' re not back in the era were 2nd level was a privilege.

melekalikimaka · 30-01-2013 12:33AM

magicherbs wrote: »

in a society that wasn't banjaxed , yes it would be nice to say nth level education and health care is free. but we live in a world where we have to prioritise first and second level, thank god we' re not back in the era were 2nd level was a privilege.

tbh i think its irish peoples sense of entitlement thats banjaxed

Podgerz · 30-01-2013 12:34AM

Boombastic wrote: »

People who do arts courses should have to pay full fees

The current Attorney General did an Arts course and worked her way up to the arguably highest legal position in the country, there are many more examples i am sure, thats just one. If she had to pay for her course id imagine she wouldnt have went to college at all, or have been significantly disadvantaged in doing so.

Thats the answer if you were serious, f you were just taking the piss my answer is - damn straight, hippies - what do they do anyway

melekalikimaka · 30-01-2013 12:35AM

Podgerz wrote: »

The current Attorney General done an Arts course and worked her way up to the arguably highest legal position in the country, there are many more examples i am sure, thats just one. If she had to pay for her course id imagine she wouldnt have went to college at all, or have been significantly disadvantaged in doing so.

Thats the answer if you were serious, f you were just taking the piss my answer is - damn straight, hippies - what do they do anyway

did*

Podgerz · 30-01-2013 12:38AM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

did*

See I could now say I do an arts course and have shown that they are ****e; unfortunately I dont

twinQuins · 30-01-2013 12:56AM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i refer to third level education not second, do you honestly feel free or subsidised 3rd level education is a right?

Why don't you tell me why you think it's not? I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing, it's just that so often people will say "it's not a right" and then leave it at that.

Well, why do you believe so?

K-9 · 30-01-2013 01:01AM

Just on the free fees thing, as somebody who the grant system and the free fee system meant little too, it meant no difference, I'm still stunned at this total belief that the new system is so much better.

Can anybody explain to me how the free fees system benefits the disadvantaged more than a grant system, the disadvantaged still get free frees anyway?

Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

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