Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

steddyeddy · 29-01-2013 09:39PM #1

I was having a discussion on another thread about colleges and the free fees system. I personally do not have anything against free fees for any group at the momentbut I know some people think that we should be paying for them in a recession. There’s another argument that free fees improve access to third level for people from disadvantaged areas but as other people have mentioned there’s a lot of other challenges facing people from those areas and I would agree with them tobe honest. If it came down to it for me I do think that there are people who can afford to pay fees in college who should pay fees if fees are brought in.Some people just drink their way through college and maybe it will change thatbut saying that at the moment free fees are something I’m ok with forevery body. What does everyone else think?

magicherbs · 29-01-2013 09:42PM

I think you need to fix your spacebar.

Free fees? 2k registration fee.

People on Local council grants are probably the only people getting free fees.

Free fees is based on parental income. How do you manage people with wealthy parents who don't give them money?

TBH I think there is too much emphasis put on university, at least 70% of the courses are ****e.

LostCorkGuy · 29-01-2013 09:44PM

Nope , too many people graduating as it is , we need more people doing manual work / manufacturing work and not pencil pushers and until they can bring in a more just barrier to entry so that only the people who deserve to be in Uni are there we need the cost factor as a deterrent

People from disadvantaged area's already get grants ect
As for the statment that people just drink their way through college ? Well that's a load of bollox , you've to work your ass off in college just to pass in my experience (I'm a repeat student paying 6K this year , Granted I'm studying Mandarin and naturally will have to work harder than a English Lit major , but I can tell you I worked hard enough last year , only going out once a week and I didn't pass , this business of thinking college is a doss is just stupid )

Rayne Wooney · 29-01-2013 09:45PM

magicherbs wrote: »

I think you need to fix your spacebar.

Free fees? 2k registration fee.

People on Local council grants are probably the only people getting free fees.

Free fees is based on parental income. How do you manage people with wealthy parents who don't give them money?

TBH I think there is too much emphasis put on university, at least 70% of the courses are ****e.

Hmm are you sure?

Pilotdude5 · 29-01-2013 09:47PM

magicherbs wrote: »

TBH I think there is too much emphasis put on university, at least 70% of the courses are ****e.

Mabey not 70% but I agree here. Also a lot of courses are spread out over 4 years when they could easily be less. Saving on rent for a year or two could make a big difference to people.

Death and Taxes · 29-01-2013 09:47PM

Means test the fees and the grant. You pay or recieve proportionate to family income.
Free fees have not aided the disadvantaged at all, but they have allowed the wealthy to spend the fees they would have paid on grind schools instead, thus actually helping the better off at the expense of the less well off.

Boombastic · 29-01-2013 09:48PM

People who do arts courses should have to pay full fees

snubbleste · 29-01-2013 09:50PM

Free fees and maintenance grants have helped many people from disadvantaged backgrounds go to college in the last eighteen years.

It was a positive step to abolish fees.

MadYaker · 29-01-2013 09:51PM

This free fees thing is misleading. Its not free my parents pay €2750 registration per year for me and the same for my sister. That €5500 per year to put us through college and were both doing 4 year degrees. I know it would be a lot more if the government didn't chip in about €8000 per year on top of that but its still not free.

I have a part time job and don't live at home so I'm not as much of a drain on their income as my sister is but its still a lot. And neither of us qualify for any grants from anywhere.

TimeToShine · 29-01-2013 09:53PM

Boombastic wrote: »

People who do arts courses should have to pay full fees

Not this again...

Rayne Wooney · 29-01-2013 09:53PM

I think the free fees should be scrapped. Bring in a new system, say €15,000 for average points courses (more for courses such as medicine) but the amount you pay depends on you or your parents income. If both your parents earn over 100k a year, your pay 100% of the fees. If both of you parents earn €40,000 a year combined, you pay 10% of the fees.

jjbrien · 29-01-2013 09:53PM

Boombastic wrote: »

People who do arts courses should have to pay full fees

Well most of my teachers did arts so Id not charge for it either. Education is our way out of the mess the country is in. More Educated people instead of builders sitting on the dole will hopefully put this country back on its feet

snubbleste · 29-01-2013 09:55PM

More teachers in the Dáil!

The_Gatsby · 29-01-2013 09:55PM

I think the scum who can't afford college fees should learn their place and be scum forever.

Death and Taxes · 29-01-2013 09:56PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Free fees and maintenance grants have helped many people from disadvantaged backgrounds go to college in the last eighteen years.

It was a positive step to abolish fees.

Do you have any actual evidence of any dramatic improvment in the numbers from disadvantaged areas going on to third level increasing in the last 18 years?

shootie · 29-01-2013 09:57PM

Well I'm in 6th year...

snubbleste · 29-01-2013 09:58PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Do you have any actual evidence of any dramatic improvment in the numbers from disadvantaged areas going on to third level increasing in the last 18 years?

Erm no.
Just anecdotal evidence that many were the first in their families to go to college.
I'm sure there are statistics out there..such as the success of Access & Hear programmes.

Boombastic · 29-01-2013 09:59PM

jjbrien wrote: »

Well most of my teachers did arts so Id not charge for it either. Education is our way out of the mess the country is in. More Educated people instead of builders sitting on the dole will hopefully put this country back on its feet

True education is good, but some courses have only 6/7 hours / week in their final year- some (most?) business courses included in this. There is no need for these degrees to be 4 years as so little time is spent in the final year. The could be done in 3 years. The only reason they are stretched out is so the college can collect fees.

Not sure what relevance your teachers have?

Mal-Adjusted · 29-01-2013 09:59PM

OP, are you complaining about college fees (disguised a a "registration fee" which everyone has to pay and are about 2-3K at this stage and going up) or the grant (which is a totally separate issue)?

29-01-2013 10:00PM

In an Irish Times article in November 2010, it was reported that the progression rate of schools in south Dublin to third level education was “more or less 100%”, while many schools from poorer areas of Dublin showed a progression of rate of less than 10%, and that these rates of entry “have hardly changed at all over the 15 years of ‘free fees’”. These statistics make complete sense. The introduction of free third-level education made little difference to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, as they have always been entitled to receive free or partially funded third-level education through grant systems. Thus, the introduction of free third-level education essentially made it free for those who could already afford it – the middle and upper-classes.
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2011/10/26/the-myth-of-free-fees/

I think a loan system or something like that would be better.

MadYaker · 29-01-2013 10:02PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Do you have any actual evidence of any dramatic improvment in the numbers from disadvantaged areas going on to third level increasing in the last 18 years?

If people from disadvantaged areas aren't going on to third level its because they are either too lazy or inept to get good enough points in the L.C. If your parents/parent are unemployed and you live in council housing you won't pay a red cent for college and you will get a maintenance grant and an accommodation grant and also most colleges have their own funds to help people from disadvantaged backgrounds so you'll most likely get a slice of that pie too. Ireland is a welfare state, all you have to do is qualify for certain criteria and you get a free ride. All you have to do is get the points.

Death and Taxes · 29-01-2013 10:03PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Erm no.
Just anecdotal evidence that many were the first in their families to go to college.
I'm sure there are statistics out there..such as the success of Access & Hear programmes.

there are stastics but they disprove the anecdotal evidence. I will look them up and post them tomorrow.

brummytom · 29-01-2013 10:05PM

I think there should be less emphasis placed on degrees. I'm currently at uni, paying £8,000 a year, mainly because it's impossible to get a half decent job without a degree.

I don't think access to education should be limited by wealth (of lack of), but I do think there is a mentality (and probable need) that everyone has to go to uni, even to do pretty Mickey Mouse courses.

Richard Hillman · 29-01-2013 10:06PM

I dont think 1st year should be free as it has the highest amount of drop outs. People out of school can try and get a job for a year and save up. Plus they will be more matured by an extra year and might have more of an idea in what they want to do. If people had to pay for it themselves then they would be more likely not to take it for granted and work harder.

I would say about 40% of my course has already virtually dropped out and a lot of them are just going through the motions, keeping their parents happy etc.

Laura_lolly87 · 29-01-2013 10:06PM

I paid €2,250 to go back to college this year. It's €2,500 next year, I don't qualify for a grant so have to save the money myself. Hiking the cost up too about €5,000 only makes college available for the very rich.

Death and Taxes · 29-01-2013 10:08PM

MadYaker wrote: »

If people from disadvantaged areas aren't going on to third level its because they are either too lazy or inept to get good enough points in the L.C. If your parents/parent are unemployed and you live in council housing you won't pay a red cent for college and you will get a maintenance grant and an accommodation grant and also most colleges have their own funds to help people from disadvantaged backgrounds so you'll most likely get a slice of that pie too. Ireland is a welfare state, all you have to do is qualify for certain criteria and you get a free ride. All you have to do is get the points.

People from disadvantaged areas face a distinct obsticle in achieving the necessary points when faced with competition from those whose parents send them to private grind schools, of course they can afford the grind schools since they know they wont have to pay fees.
Check the stats on the schools most likely to feed into the third level system.

Herb Powell · 29-01-2013 10:08PM

Boombastic wrote: »

People who do arts courses should have to pay full fees

Shortage of graduates with decent language skills, so nah, **** that.

Boombastic wrote: »

True education is good, but some courses have only 6/7 hours / week in their final year- some (most?) business courses included in this. There is no need for these degrees to be 4 years as so little time is spent in the final year. The could be done in 3 years. The only reason they are stretched out is so the college can collect fees.

Not sure what relevance your teachers have?

6/7 hours of classes does not=6/7 hours of total work! THough I'm sure you knew that already.

cantdecide · 29-01-2013 10:08PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think a loan system or something like that would be better.

Maybe for those who are by most people's definition well-off but like a lot of situiations in this country that involve means-testing, the people in the black and white areas will be grand but a huge proportion of people in the grey area will be plunged into hardship.

I think free education is principal we should stick by, tbh.

Chuck Stone · 29-01-2013 10:10PM

First things first. 3rd level is not free - the vast majority of the bill is picked up by the public whether they attend college, or have kids who will, or not.

I think there should be state funded scholarships for exceptional students from impoverished backgrounds and loans for people who can't pay up front.

Shirley the fairest way would see the user pay? Also, if the user pays it might encourage 3rd level institutions to streamline and not pay lecturers some of the highest wages in Europe for mediocre outcomes as regards league tables of college performance.

galait · 29-01-2013 10:11PM

In the US my sister and her Husband are setting out on a 6 yr Journey with their Daughter to Study Pharmacy in a Private Catholic UNI , The fees for Yr1 & Yr2 are $43,000 including Room & Board , Yrs 3 to 6 is north of $50,000 , They also have son who is 4 yrs from College and will be following a similar Path !!

Pumpkinseeds · 29-01-2013 10:11PM

I think that the system needs to be overhauled. There should be a loans system that is repaid, not unlike the system in the UK. Grants should be means tested and should only apply to those from low income backgrounds and to courses that are beneficial to society.

I think its time to stop sending people to university just for the sake of it. There are so many courses available that are quite frankly laughable. The grant system as it stands now seems to be more of a hindrance than a help from what I've been reading.

Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

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