High rise buildings in Dublin - Yeay or nay?

pabloh999 · 29-01-2013 04:15PM

.

markpb · 29-01-2013 04:22PM

pabloh999 wrote: »

We will never ever have rise rise districts or anything of the sort.

While I agree with you, those examples are poor. ABP could not approve high rise in Ballsbridge because it was not allowed by the cities local area plan. DCC should never have approved it. Ditto Liberty hall (although I think the existence of the current building should set precedent).

However, if either of those plans had been submitted for one of the agreed/approved areas (Docklands, Heuston, Clonshaugh(!), etc) ABP really would have no reason not to approve them. I suspect they might though....

Franticfrank · 29-01-2013 04:24PM

There's absolutely no reason to construct high buildings in the middle of Dublin anyway. It would make sense to construct them but a little bit outside, in the same way as Šnipiškės in Vilnius or La Défense in Paris. Constructing something like that close to a Dart or Luas line would bring a lot of life to an area outside the centre.

April O Neill · 29-01-2013 04:24PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Bigger buildings can be more economical in the long run. Urban sprawl is making it hard to get around. We could have better infrastructure. There are a multitude of reasons for building up.

That's true but the point is that we have plenty of empty buildings right now so it makes no sense to build more.

Nippledragon · 29-01-2013 04:29PM

1ZRed wrote: »

I swear the amount if architects that should be shot for lack of talent, but yet are hired for the job anyway, is unreal.

Not so sure Architects are wholly to blame here, many draughtsmen, arch-techs, engineers etc. claimed they were 'Architects' during the boom. Most people don't know the difference between the three anyways.
The problem in Ireland is that the majority don't appreciate good design, and don't think paying the properly qualified people is worth the money. Have a look at some of the 'beautiful' houses that have made sh!te of been built in the countryside. It really says it all

The planning depts across the country have a lot to answer for too imo.

Would you pay chiropodist to pull your teeth? No? Then why pay a non qualified/trained architect (or architectural technician) to design your house?

Back to the topic, I think Dublin should build high-rise, but only if it is actually needed. They should not build high-rise just for the sake of it. Any city's development should be the driven by what is needed, and existing redundant spaces/buildings should always be considered first, where applicable.

markpb · 29-01-2013 04:32PM

April O Neill wrote: »

That's true but the point is that we have plenty of empty buildings right now so it makes no sense to build more.

Where are all those empty buildings (in Dublin)? Sandyford has one incomplete building and one partially incomplete. All the other buildings completed in the last three years have been occupied. The city centre has the Anglo building on the quays. There may be others in other areas but I'm not sure there's the glut of empty buildings that everyone assumes there is.

Perhaps some of the empty buildings are empty because they're unsuitable for any economic use or in unsuitable areas (not near public transport or a motorway)?

It's worth pointing out that a lot of empty buildings are actually let and rent is being paid but the company has ceased trading in Ireland. In this case, their parent company are obliged (by lease) to continue paying rent to the landlord until the end of their lease. They might not be allowed to sub-lease the building to anyone else. This happens all the time with commercial units and creates the impression of empty buildings that no-one can fill. For example, ICS Mortgage shops were all empty for years but you can be sure the landlord is still getting paid.

pabloh999 · 29-01-2013 04:33PM

markpb wrote: »

While I agree with you, those examples are poor. ABP could not approve high rise in Ballsbridge because it was not allowed by the cities local area plan. DCC should never have approved it. Ditto Liberty hall (although I think the existence of the current building should set precedent).

However, if either of those plans had been submitted for one of the agreed/approved areas (Docklands, Heuston, Clonshaugh(!), etc) ABP really would have no reason not to approve them. I suspect they might though....

Perhaps not the greatest examples they were literally the first couple google put up.
We had a big building boom by any global standard
And not one single skyscraper type building?
Its not a coincindence

markpb · 29-01-2013 04:38PM

pabloh999 wrote: »

Perhaps not the greatest examples they were literally the first couple google put up.
We had a big building boom by any global standard
And not one single skyscraper type building?
Its not a coincindence

Perhaps the reason (initially) is that the city councils were happy to give permission to keep building out instead of up so there was no reason to incur the extra cost of a skyscraper? You only build up when you have to because it's many, many times more expensive (initially and in on-going maintenance) than building out. When fields in Blanchardstown were going cheap and Fingal were happy to give permission for thousands of houses, why bother paying more for a tower in the city centre.

By the time it was financially viable to build up, DCC had a new set of local area plans which limited where high rise could be constructed and then the money ran out...

ScumLord · 29-01-2013 04:45PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Right but why do we need skyscrapers? Take somewhere like Munich, I'm not aware of any there, but it functions great as a city.

If you do a serch on google for Munich skyline you will find they do have high rises, they're not in the historic centre but just as in Paris they surround the city. It's the same in any historic city, they protect the buildings that deserve protecting but have well connected business centres elsewhere in the city.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

At present almost everyone has to commute to work because they are in different areas. It also means that the business areas are completely dead at night.

That's common throughout the country. The N17 in Galway is always blocked because for some reason the people that work in the city live in the countryside and the people that work in the countryside live in the city.

April O Neill wrote: »

That's true but the point is that we have plenty of empty buildings right now so it makes no sense to build more.

It's not really the buildings fault it wasn't used, planned for or built correctly. Every other developed country builds up because it's the logical things to do.

pabloh999 · 29-01-2013 04:46PM

What an absolute wasted opportunity the IFSC was.
We could have a nice and interesting little high rise area down there.

Recently a lot of IFSC buildings are adding new lighting, reds and greens.
Maybe when you look down the river it makes it seem like something is actually going on down there ?

riclad · 29-01-2013 04:56PM

here,s plenty of building land round dublin,for house building i think high buildings would be of most interest to business or large companys.
This is not the 70s, the council is knocking down blocks, they build mainly 2 or 3 story houses, apartments.
Theres many apartment blocks, on ground floor theres retail space,
probably demanded by council,to get planning permission, many of these spaces are lying empty,
probably cos of the recession.
Many of these spaces have never been used.as theres plenty of shops nearby.
I Think theres plenty of office space in dublin.enough to meet demand at the moment.

RUSTEDCORE · 29-01-2013 05:00PM

Ive always wanted to live in new york

BraziliaNZ · 29-01-2013 05:04PM

ScumLord wrote: »

If you do a serch on google for Munich skyline you will find they do have high rises, they're not in the historic centre but just as in Paris they surround the city. It's the same in any historic city, they protect the buildings that deserve protecting but have well connected business centres elsewhere in the city.

I've visited loads of times, a good friend lives in the suburbs, and didn't really notice, but maybe they do have some outside the old parts.
But why would we build them in Dublin? For what I mean?
Irish people are obsessed with living in houses with gardens, semi-detatched etc.
Do we really need high rise for business around the outskirts of the city? What business?

markpb · 29-01-2013 05:06PM

riclad wrote: »

I Think theres plenty of office space in dublin.enough to meet demand at the moment.

You could be wrong though. Office space has to suit the company involved. Google or other large companies aren't going to go around hoovering up all the small to medium offices around the city - they need a single large building. Likewise, most IT companies won't move into renovated Georgian buildings because they're awful to try to put proper networking and power into. Some companies won't take older buildings on two stories unless they have a lift which most old buildings don't. Some companies won't take city centre locations because they don't have enough parking or because they're too far away from the Dart of Luas. It's way to vague to point at some empty buildings and say there's more than enough.

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But we're an economically dead backwater. What's going to drive this upward growth?

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Do we really need high rise for business around the outskirts of the city? What business?

You believe we're stuck in a rut from which we'll never emerge? It must be a depressing place for you

April O Neill · 29-01-2013 05:12PM

markpb wrote: »

Where are all those empty buildings (in Dublin)? Sandyford has one incomplete building and one partially incomplete. All the other buildings completed in the last three years have been occupied.

There are loads in Smithfield, around Heuston, and in Dublin 2.

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not really the buildings fault it wasn't used, planned for or built correctly. Every other developed country builds up because it's the logical things to do.

If it's needed.

pabloh999 · 29-01-2013 05:22PM

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

Ive always wanted to live in new york

A high rise building or two does not equal Manhattan.

Remember the anti high rise marches? residents of sherriff st/east wall area out protesting because plans were afoot to build some tallish buildings in our International Financial Centre:eek:
I was young enough at the time but i remember thinking what a bunch of absolute losers.

ScumLord · 29-01-2013 05:23PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But why would we build them in Dublin? For what I mean?

Improved efficiency. It'll improve resource use and make transporting people around easier. It's also better for peoples health. If you can walk from your building to your place of work it's much better than spending 30+ minutes commuting.

April O Neill wrote: »

If it's needed.

It is needed, Dublins big and spread out at the moment. The new road network around Dublin has made getting around Dublin much easier but that won't last, it's becoming outdated as we speak.

BraziliaNZ · 29-01-2013 05:27PM

markpb wrote: »

You believe we're stuck in a rut from which we'll never emerge? It must be a depressing place for you

It looks that way, I don't really give a sh*t I don't live there.
I just think building more stuff is the last thing you'd want to do ffs.

pabloh999 · 29-01-2013 05:43PM

High rise 21st century living for some
Grim deserted lifeless housing estates for others

April O Neill · 29-01-2013 05:46PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It is needed, Dublins big and spread out at the moment. The new road network around Dublin has made getting around Dublin much easier but that won't last, it's becoming outdated as we speak.

The only way people in Ireland will move into high-rise is if high rise living in this country becomes a lot less sh1t. But, you know, a lot of iconic skyscrapers are pretty pokey on the inside. It's more about the aesthetics with them.

Housing estate houses are soulless but they tend to be roomy, something people won't give up easily.

Finally, not everyone wants to live in city centres.

markpb · 29-01-2013 05:57PM

April O Neill wrote: »

Finally, not everyone wants to live in city centres.

Where has anyone suggested forcibly moving people?

ScumLord · 29-01-2013 06:10PM

April O Neill wrote: »

The only way people in Ireland will move into high-rise is if high rise living in this country becomes a lot less sh1t. But, you know, a lot of iconic skyscrapers are pretty pokey on the inside. It's more about the aesthetics with them.

That's true, in high density cities like New York you don't gt much space for your money but at the same time a New Yorker has all kinds of cheap entertainment right under their feet. Businesses can offer better prices too as they know they have a high density of people all around them. New buildings are over coming space issues with clever building, we don't have to build the worst examples of high rises, we can always choose to build the good ones.

Housing estate houses are soulless but they tend to be roomy, something people won't give up easily.

Finally, not everyone wants to live in city centres.

People may like to live in country mansions but they just can't. If people like the hassle of commuting through heavy traffic because they want a garden they'll never use and hate mowing then they're idiots.

April O Neill · 29-01-2013 06:10PM

markpb wrote: »

Where has anyone suggested forcibly moving people?

Where have I suggested that was said?

Forcibly? What?

But if we're talking about cities going up rather than out to cut travel times, that's gonna mean people increasingly living high rise too.

April O Neill · 29-01-2013 06:12PM

ScumLord wrote: »

People may like to live in country mansions but they just can't. If people like the hassle of commuting through heavy traffic because they want a garden they'll never use and hate mowing then they're idiots.

I wasn't referring to country mansions, just regular 3/4 bed houses in outer suburbs..

markpb · 29-01-2013 06:12PM

ScumLord wrote: »

People may like to live in country mansions but they just can't. If people like the hassle of commuting through heavy traffic because they want a garden they'll never use and hate mowing then they're idiots.

I think that's unfair. Some people want a garden that they can have a BBQ in during the summer or that their kids can play in when they're very young. There's nothing wrong with that - it's just preference. Personally I'd prefer to live in or close to the city center with lots of amenities around me but it's not for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

April O Neill wrote: »

But if we're talking about cities going up rather than out to cut travel times, that's gonna mean people increasingly living high rise too.

I don't think anyone in Ireland is placed in a situation where they have to live somewhere without their will. Even people receiving free or subsidised accommodation get a choice of location and dwelling type. Just because (in a hypothetical future) we managed to build some decent high rise buildings in the city center with lots of space, amenities and whatnot), there's nothing stopping someone living in the existing housing stock.

Aquarius34 · 29-01-2013 06:13PM

Inside the grand canals all new buildings should be built to at least high density and to of height of 4 to 9 stories. The Parisians managed that in the 1700s.

High rise should be built at the Docklands and around Hueston.

Aquarius34 · 29-01-2013 06:15PM

markpb wrote: »

I think that's unfair. Some people want a garden that they can have a BBQ in during the summer or that their kids can play in when they're very young. There's nothing wrong with that - it's just preference. Personally I'd prefer to live in or close to the city center with lots of amenities around me but it's not for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

Yes but if you live in the city, you adopt city life. If you want a big garden go outside of the city. The needs of having a BBQ is irrelevant on the planning of the city.

markpb · 29-01-2013 06:18PM

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Yes but if you live in the city, you adopt city life. If you want a big garden go outside of the city. The needs of having a BBQ is irrelevant on the planning of the city.

Not necessarily - every city needs a mix of low, medium and high density housing stock. You'll find it hard to show a city that doesn't have this. (Perhaps some of the Chinese or Japanese mega cities?) You can't force people to live in a type of dwelling they don't like -all you can do is build it so it fulfills as many of their needs as possible so less efficient types are less attractive.

btw there's only one Grand Canal in Dublin, the other is the Royal

hfallada · 29-01-2013 06:18PM

Tasteful high rise like those ones you see in NYC which look out onto central park with door men. They have a sense of community.

People should live in the city not in Kildare miles away from the city with nothing to do. High rise works in every city.

ScumLord · 29-01-2013 06:33PM

April O Neill wrote: »

I wasn't referring to country mansions, just regular 3/4 bed houses in outer suburbs..

markpb wrote: »

I think that's unfair. Some people want a garden that they can have a BBQ in during the summer or that their kids can play in when they're very young. There's nothing wrong with that - it's just preference.

I don't know about all that, it's a life style choice. It's the American dream of the picket fence and all that craic. People want all sorts of stupid crap, I have a BBQ sitting in my press for the past 3 years because I never really got the chance to use it. The idea of having a BBQ was lovely, but the reality means you'll do it once or twice every few years. Not really the deciding basis for buying a house.

People should have more practical concerns. How long is my commute? What are services like? Childcare? Because you won't really use that back garden. Public transport? Security? An apartment complex can be much safer.

I think the view of apartment complexes is tainted by the tower blocks we used to have but new apartment complexes are being built in the likes of the Netherlands and Germany that have plenty of space, are highly economical and eco friendly. They are initially more expensive but much cheaper in the long run.

High rise buildings in Dublin - Yeay or nay?

Comments