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The IRFU, is it time to replace the blazers?

13

Comments

  • #62
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    liammur wrote: »
    rrpc's point was, even if they knew his career was over they should give him a contract for a soft landing. So the only 1 who gained there was Leamy. And I think they were right to look after him too.

    He would have been covered by insurance for a career ending injury anyway. It just strikes me as a poor use of resources. Mind you, for as annoying as the Fitz contract talks were, it appears they've learned their lesson there.


  • #63
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    totallegend wrote: »
    What I said was that they have the same goal but very different ideas as to how that can be achieved. The IRFU's clear opinion is that the game can be grown by giving priority to the national team over the provinces in all aspects of the pro game, my opinion is that they're wrong.

    I'm never going to convince you otherwise so I'm not going to clog up the board by replying to the rest of your post, except this bit
    By all means, post away. I've replied to your post by section. No need to ignore the rest such as your recollection of RWC 1991 and 1999 for example. The two RWCs Irish legs were nowhere as bad as you appeared to make them out to be.
    totallegend wrote: »
    It's not a good sign for your argument when you have to resort to trying to trip up the other guy. The failure, and it has been nothing short of failure, of the national team has led directly to the 'Player Succession' policy. Fewer top-quality foreigners staying for a shorter time = less competitiveness for the provinces.
    It read like you were contradicting yourself, superlatives included. Not trying to trip anyone up. I disagree with you, 'totallegend'. Its certainly not personal as I have not got the foggies idea as to who you are. You've just yet to convince me of anything except you having a point of view.
    There is no point in depriving Irish qualified players key positions in the provincial teams to develop under. I know hindsight is great and all that, but barring time-travel, this is the only way to develop these players. The entire setup (provincial & national teams) is supposed to work off and feed off each other, regardless of any claim that the IRFU is allegedly divided and in competition with itself.


  • #64
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    P_1 wrote: »
    True, it didn't make business sense though.

    Well if you are looking at it from a business point of view, it was a dreadul decision, no doubt about that.


  • #65
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The entire setup (provincial & national teams) is supposed to work off and feed off each other, regardless of any claim that the IRFU is allegedly divided and in competition with itself.

    That's the idea, however with the Sexton example it's clear that it didn't


  • #66
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    JustinDee wrote: »
    By all means, post away. I've replied to your post by section. No need to ignore the rest such as your recollection of RWC 1991 and 1999 for example.

    I went back and looked at the attendance figures for RWC 1999, 30,000 people at each of the USA and Romania games. In the World Cup finals, in Dublin. I don't regard those figures as very good, at all.

    My only reference to 1991 was that rugby was 'obscure' at the time; obscurity is subjective I suppose, but it was far from mainstream, that's a fact.
    JustinDee wrote:
    It read like you were contradicting yourself, superlatives included. Not
    trying to trip anyone up. I disagree with you, 'totallegend'. Its certainly not personal as I have not got the foggies idea as to who you are. You've just yet to convince me of anything except you having a point of view.
    You're confusing 'superlative' with 'hyperbole'. And I didn't say it was personal.
    JustinDee wrote:
    There is no point in depriving Irish qualified players key positions in the provincial teams to develop under. I know hindsight is great and all that, but barring time-travel, this is the only way to develop these players. The entire setup (provincial & national teams) is supposed to work off and feed off each other, regardless of any claim that the IRFU is allegedly divided and in competition with itself.

    I disagree; I think having world-class foreigners in the provincial teams is a rising tide that lifts all boats. Listen to what the Leinster guys say about Brad Thorn's commitment and traning methods; they were in awe of it. When you have multiple HC winners and Lions test players talking like that, what must it be doing for the younger guys? Ditto Howlett, Muller, Pienaar etc etc; invaluable in developing their teams.


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  • #67
    Fooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭Fooker


    This idea of matching Racing's offer is ludicrous. Sexton is pretty much Ireland's best paid player as it is. First of all finding the extra 250k would prove difficult.

    Then that would make him pretty paid close to twice as much as O'Brien, Kearney, Healy, O'Driscoll etc. Where would they find the money to increase their pay? Overall the whole pay structure for all players would have to be raised.

    We have also only lost ONE player, we are doing well that in the vast majority of cases, the best Irish players are playing in Ireland. There is no reason to panic.

    Maybe P_1 knows something we don't know or is a millionaire and has offered to subsidise a pay increase increase of 50% for all Irish based players. Otherwise I think some posters are living in cloud cuckoo land and cannot be taken seriously.


  • #68
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    P_1 wrote: »
    That's the idea, however with the Sexton example it's clear that it didn't

    But the IRFU can't blow their entire budget on a few select players. There has to be a wage ceiling.


  • #69
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    liammur wrote: »
    Well if you are looking at it from a business point of view, it was a dreadul decision, no doubt about that.
    It's not necessarily a poor business decision either. In as much as the Fitz contract was a poor decision in retrospect, the Leamy one gives comfort to other players that they won't be dumped out in the cold should their career end prematurely and hence encourage them to remain in Ireland.

    Form the rumoured figure that Jonny is getting we can also see that there is a premium needed to break the hold of the IRFU on centrally contracted players and that premium is at least 50%.


  • #70
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,845 ✭✭✭✭phog


    P_1 wrote: »

    That's the idea, however with the Sexton example it's clear that it didn't

    There has to be a cap, Irish rugby can't just print money. Aside from the money Sexton makes from his salary from the French club he will also get money from the IRFU when involved in the Irish camp. That actually makes his contract even harder to match from his POV.


  • #71
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    liammur wrote: »
    If Toulouse came in with 750K for Murray, what can the IRFU do?

    Send the Toulouse negotiators urgently to a mental health expert.


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  • #72
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    totallegend wrote: »
    I went back and looked at the attendance figures for RWC 1999, 30,000 people at each of the USA and Romania games. In the World Cup finals, in Dublin. I don't regard those figures as very good, at all
    Thats it? There were nearly 50,000 spectators at the USA game. 30,000-plus for a Romania match with no freebies or neighbourhood pass-outs is an excellent attendance. The attendances for the other games were excellent too.
    totallegend wrote: »
    My only reference to 1991 was that rugby was 'obscure' at the time; obscurity is subjective I suppose, but it was far from mainstream, that's a fact
    You're attempting to state that provincial success spreads the game more than international here, I think. Home Irish international rugby was well attended in 1991 and generally always was. Interpros weren't, right up to 2001/2. Club attendance spread itself across the various senior competitions.
    Nobody wants one or the other. The aim is to have all competing professional sides achieving goals. You appear to be claiming that the governing body of the sport sees itself seperate from its own branches. This is quite simply untrue.
    totallegend wrote: »
    I disagree; I think having world-class foreigners in the provincial teams is a rising tide that lifts all boats. Listen to what the Leinster guys say about Brad Thorn's commitment and traning methods; they were in awe of it. When you have multiple HC winners and Lions test players talking like that, what must it be doing for the younger guys? Ditto Howlett, Muller, Pienaar etc etc; invaluable in developing their teams.
    Works both ways and yes, introduction of experienced players from outside also vital but there has to be a balance in the ongoing process of building up player-depth. Nobody has said contrary. What to do if there if there are overseas players in each province in each of the key positions? Who gets to play and when?

    Nothing is exclusive. It is far more interlinked a system than a simplistic 'us vs them' two-circle venn diagram.


  • #73
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Fooker wrote: »
    This idea of matching Racing's offer is ludicrous. Sexton is pretty much Ireland's best paid player as it is. First of all finding the extra 250k would prove difficult.

    Then that would make him pretty paid close to twice as much as O'Brien, Kearney, Healy, O'Driscoll etc. Where would they find the money to increase their pay? Overall the whole pay structure for all players would have to be raised.

    We have also only lost ONE player, we are doing well that in the vast majority of cases, the best Irish players are playing in Ireland. There is no reason to panic.

    The reasoning is that Sexton is a vital player and the fulcrum around which Leinster revolve. Key point here is that I'm emphasizing Leinster and NOT Ireland. Ireland can continue to stump up the central contract money and its up to Leinster to find the extra 250k.
    Fooker wrote: »
    Maybe P_1 knows something we don't know or is a millionaire and has offered to subsidise a pay increase increase of 50% for all Irish based players. Otherwise I think some posters are living in cloud cuckoo land and cannot be taken seriously.

    If only ;)


  • #74
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    jacothelad wrote: »
    Send the Toulouse negotiators urgently to a mental health expert.

    They are the most successful club in European rugby. We don't have to worry about them.

    Hope that helps.


  • #75
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    P_1 wrote: »
    The reasoning is that Sexton is a vital player and the fulcrum around which Leinster revolve. Key point here is that I'm emphasizing Leinster and NOT Ireland. Ireland can continue to stump up the central contract money and its up to Leinster to find the extra 250k.



    If only ;)

    That's an interesting angle alright, but the key point remains, other central players would look for increases too, and more pressure would fall on the clubs to find the extra cash.


  • #76
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Thats it? There were nearly 50,000 spectators at the USA game.

    There was nothing close to that. You can have your own opinion but not your own facts.


  • #77
    dowistrepla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭dowistrepla


    Peter O'Reilly's article in the Sunday Times today is an interesting read. Really sticks the boot into the IRFU over the Sexton saga.

    He says that Sexton wanted to sign a new contract before the start of the season but the IRFU refused to begin negotiations until December. Also, originally at least, Sexton was only looking to match Heaslip's contract of 450k(he doesn't mention if/by how much this changed after Racing put in their offer).

    The intimation in the article seems to be that Sexton wanted to stay at Leinster but got pissed off at the IRFU(and eventually tempted by Racing's megabucks).

    I'd be inclined to agree to O'Reilly, I think the problem was not so much trying to match Racing's offer(which would not be viable), but focusing on securing his future earlier and being having more dialog with the players. The IRFU's belief that their hardline negotiating policy(as well as the tax break) would keep players from leaving Ireland has come back to bite them, or more to the point, come back to bite Leinster. So cheers for that IRFU!


  • #78
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    liammur wrote: »
    That's an interesting angle alright, but the key point remains, other central players would look for increases too, and more pressure would fall on the clubs to find the extra cash.

    Well not really, for other positions they can well say, well actually Sean/Jamie/Kevin, we have Jamie/Kevin/Jordie who can easily fill your shoes. It might hurt us to lose you but its a loss we can absorb, with Sexton it isn't really a loss that they can absorb


  • #79
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    P_1 wrote: »
    Well not really, for other positions they can well say, well actually Sean/Jamie/Kevin, we have Jamie/Kevin/Jordie who can easily fill your shoes. It might hurt us to lose you but its a loss we can absorb
    I wouldn't say that.


  • #80
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    rrpc wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that.

    Certain positions have a different supply/demand to others. It makes sense to pay a higher premium for positions with a different supply/demand ratio than it does for others


  • #81
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,845 ✭✭✭✭phog


    P_1 wrote: »

    The reasoning is that Sexton is a vital player and the fulcrum around which Leinster revolve. Key point here is that I'm emphasizing Leinster and NOT Ireland. Ireland can continue to stump up the central contract money and its up to Leinster to find the extra 250k.



    If only ;)


    Did Leinster try and stump up that extra €250k? Did the IRFU stop it?


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  • #82
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    phog wrote: »
    Did Leinster try and stump up that extra €250k? Did the IRFU stop it?

    No, because of the IRFU's rules they were prevented from even attempting to try it.


  • #83
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,845 ✭✭✭✭phog


    P_1 wrote: »

    No, because of the IRFU's rules they were prevented from even attempting to try it.

    What rules? Can Sexton earn money from another source outside of his central contract? I'd be shocked if he couldn't as a lot of central contracted players can.


  • #84
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    totallegend wrote: »
    There was nothing close to that. You can have your own opinion but not your own facts.
    Wasn't far off a full house (which was 48,500).
    And the tournament games in Ireland were not even close to the impression you tried to give.


  • #85
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    phog wrote: »
    What rules? Can Sexton earn money from another source outside of his central contract? I'd be shocked if he couldn't as a lot of central contracted players can.

    Basically once the IRFU have a contract offer out with a player, the provinces aren't allowed to 'top up' this contract offer.

    Personally I think if Leinster were allowed to 'top up' the IRFU's offer, Sexton would still be living and playing in Dublin next season.


  • #86
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Leinster paying a top up is arseways, it's more or less the same as the IRFU paying him the money themselves.

    A more suitable 'top up' would be the IRFU organising a lucrative personal sponsor contract for Sexton, something like Wilkinson has with Gilette. Then again Sexton and his representatives could just organise that themselves...


  • #87
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Wasn't far off a full house (which was 48,500).
    And the tournament games in Ireland were not even close to the impression you tried to give.

    i agree, sure some AIL games used to get 15,000 back in those days.


  • #88
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Wasn't far off a full house (which was 48,500).
    And the tournament games in Ireland were not even close to the impression you tried to give.

    Nope.

    Edit; you actually have me doubting myself. Luckily it's a Sunday afternoon so I have the time to indulge you so you don't have to take my word for any of it:
    http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/match_centre.php?section=overview&fixid=2675

    Some dude even put the entire match up on YouTube. Have a look at the density of people on the terraces; if you were ever in Lansdowne at a full-house, you'll know what it was like. And this is nothing like a full house:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPOrb7uYm5M

    If you have the grace to admit your mistake, then fair play. But you don't.


  • #89
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Leinster paying a top up is arseways, it's more or less the same as the IRFU paying him the money themselves.

    A more suitable 'top up' would be the IRFU organising a lucrative personal sponsor contract for Sexton, something like Wilkinson has with Gilette. Then again Sexton and his representatives could just organise that themselves...

    Is it though?

    As far as I understand it, Leinster make their money from Ticket sales, sponsorships, and tournament prizemoney. Any surplus they make is given up to the IRFU.

    Given Leisnter's marketability I could see them being able to make up that 250k shortfall in 'topping up' Sexton's contract fairly easilly


  • #90
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,845 ✭✭✭✭phog


    P_1 wrote: »

    Basically once the IRFU have a contract offer out with a player, the provinces aren't allowed to 'top up' this contract offer.

    Personally I think if Leinster were allowed to 'top up' the IRFU's offer, Sexton would still be living and playing in Dublin next season.

    As I said elsewhere or earlier in this thread ( so many discussing Sexton's contract hard to keep up), Leinster may not be allowed "top up" his contract, is that a fact BTW, but they could certainly offer him an additional salary for "extra work" like running workshops with underage, meeting sponsors, mentoring academy players, you name it, all they had to do was think outside the box. Pay him 25k for each "workshop" and less than he a month would have him on that extra €250.0000 and have him playing at home.


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  • #91
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,845 ✭✭✭✭phog


    P_1 wrote: »

    Is it though?

    As far as I understand it, Leinster make their money from Ticket sales, sponsorships, and tournament prizemoney. Any surplus they make is given up to the IRFU.

    Given Leisnter's marketability I could see them being able to make up that 250k shortfall in 'topping up' Sexton's contract fairly easilly

    How much does Leinster make each year, have you figures for the last four years, probably their most successful and then figures for the min 90"s when they have been depending on the IRFU for subsidies.


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