The IRFU, is it time to replace the blazers?

P_1

Strongly influenced by the Sexton and Puma news.

Who is in charge of the business dealings in the IRFU? What is their expertise? We now have professional players, coaches etc but do we have professional administrators?

Lets look at a few key business/administrative decisions that the IRFU have made and compare them with how the provinces are handling things.

1 - The stadium. The IRFU have saddled us with a deal with Aviva that means every full test has to be played in Lansdowne Road. We now have the farcical situation where a match that won't sell out (say a match against one of the PIs) has to be treated as an A match. Now Leinster have the deal with the RDS where they have to play a minimum of 12 matches a season there giving the option of moving bigger matches to Lansdowne. On balance I'd say the provinces made the better deal there.

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

3 - Sponsorships. So the Puma deal has bitten the dust. Have the IRFU got any compensation for this? Essentially Puma broke their contract by pulling out of the Rugby market. We don't have an example of how the provinces would have handled this to be fair.

Basically the point that I'm trying to make is that the provinces have people who are experts in this field to look after the admin side of things and the IRFU have individuals who I'm sure are talented in their own fields but I wouldn't say are up to much in terms of looking after the admin side of things for rugby, looking after the admin side of things.

Think about it, we have professional coaches, it makes sense to also have professional administrators.

CIARAN_BOYLE

P_1 wrote: »

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

Fishooks13

ffs this is ridiculously reactionary stuff

CatFromHue

1. The Aviva pay alot of money to sponsor the stadium and realistically not many Ireland games are played away from Lansdowne anyway! From memory I can only think of Fiji this year, Canada in 2009, a friendly before the RWC in both 2011 and 2007 and a game against the BaaBaas in 2010. Most of these games should be classed as A games anyway.

2. The IRFU/Leinster are right to let Sexton go if he is offered that amount of money. It would be bad financial management to try and match it.

3. The sponsorship thing only happened yesterday so all the details are still unknown.

P_1

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

Fishooks13

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

Lack of a Denis O Brien?

totallegend

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

No, those sums don't add up.

Well, Sexton's current deal is €500k p.a. or thereabouts. So that's a gap of 250k.

If Leinster win their pool and get a home quarter-final in next year's HEC, they would make that 250k back (many times over) in one weekend from the rental income on Aviva stadium & meritocracy fees from ERC. Leinster's chances of doing so are greatly reduced without Sexton.

[And you can deduct from that 250k the appearance fees etc that Sexton will be paid by IRFU for his time with the national team.]

IRFU don't want to set a precedent, that is the issue.

Risteard

If it's true that Sexton is earning €750,000 then there's absolutely nothing that the IRFU could have done. They just cannot compete with that kind of cash.

As for the Puma deal, that's more to do with Puma who are pulling out of the European rugby market than it does with the IRFU. Plus I'm pretty sure I've read that they have been compensated for it.

danthefan

I don't really blame the IRFU. They were outbid, end of story really.

P_1

Fishooks13 wrote: »

ffs this is ridiculously reactionary stuff

Yes it is reactionary, mainly because we have the potential for a massive problem.

Look at the Welsh regions, they can't keep their best players, do we want the same to happen with the provinces?

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

Winters

I for one and delighted that the IRFU didnt exceed their pay structure to keep Sexton. Their remit to develop and run both professional and amateur rugby on this island is the core.

Fishooks13

P_1 wrote: »

Yes it is reactionary, mainly because we have the potential for a massive problem.

Look at the Welsh regions, they can't keep their best players, do we want the same to happen with the provinces?

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

Yes we do. The IRFU have done a fantastic job in keeping the vast majority of our top talent playing at home during the pro era but there comes a point where they simply can't match the offers of some French clubs. Not sure what you expect them to do? Match Racing even though it's not financially sustainable

All this is ignoring the fact that Sexton has won 3 HC's with Leinster. Maybe he just wants a new challenge with a new club making a serious investment in players and the money is a nice bonus

Noopti

Get a grip *people...

* P_1

danthefan

Winters wrote: »

I for one and delighted that the IRFU didnt exceed their pay structure to keep Sexton. Their remit to develop and run both professional and amateur rugby on this island is the core.

You say that as if there is some defined pay structure. Is there?

phog

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

If Leinster had someone to stump up the money they could have offered Sexton a contract there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing so, other than the obvious one, lack of funds.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

If Leinster had someone to stump up the money they could have offered Sexton a contract there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing so, other than the obvious one, lack of funds.

I would suspect you're completely wrong in that.

leeroybrown

Silly reactionary stuff here. The IRFU player retention scheme mainly relies on the tax breaks negotiated with the Revenue for players who stay in Ireland for 10 years. In Sexton's case he became a top level player late in his career and he's 28 already. The numbers stack up in favour of him leaving for a big contract rather than staying for a tax rebate.

Winters

danthefan wrote: »

You say that as if there is some defined pay structure. Is there?

Yes there is. There are different types of contracts and pay grades. The top contracts are negotiated obviously but there is a budget and there are ceilings.

P_1

I think the main problem here is the difference in overall objectives between the IRFU and the provinces.

Effectively, at the top level, the provinces are almost like clubs these days. Their overall objective is to have as much success as a club (winning trophies, making money, keeping the best players etc).

At the top level, the IRFU's overall objective is to have as much success internationally.

Now both the provinces and the IRFU also have the objective of promoting the game at all levels and making sure that there's enough cash in the kitty to ensure this.

So we have the conflict between the provinces and the IRFU. If I understand the rules correctly, once the IRFU has made the decision, the provinces have no autonomy whatsoever to try influence things for their own benefit.

I suppose something like this was inevitable after the provinces have gotten so successful and the fortunes of the international team have dropped.

Where do we draw the line? (I think my own feelings on the matter are pretty well established at this stage)

JustinDee

No conflict.
International level of the game while the biggest earner in Ireland, also compliments the provincial game as the provincial game in turn compliments the international game.
The thread starter posts as if the IRFU and its branches are separate entities. They are not.

Gambas

P_1 wrote: »

do we have professional administrators?

Yes.

Heroditas

P_1 wrote: »

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

What do you think Philip Browne and his team are? Volunteers?

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

No conflict.
International level of the game while the biggest earner in Ireland, also compliments the provincial game as the provincial game in turn compliments the international game.
The thread starter posts as if the IRFU and its branches are separate entities. They are not.

But they do have very different objectives. Very different.

So when you have the central branch doing the negotiating for a provincial player, or dictating who a province may sign, that's where the problems arise.

Rigor Mortis

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

That is one contract, The IRFU have to manage many more contracts than that, worth well in excess of what trap costs.

Unhappy and all as I am, this aint the IRFU's fault. In the professional era Irish rugby has punched way above its weight at both provincial and international level. None of the other four 'home nations' have done that. Wales have had international but not club, England has had some international and some club (even this has been under performance), Scotland have had nothing. You could even make a case that for their resources that France have under performed.

The IRFU have provided the seed capital for Leinster, Munster and Ulster, Connacht is a different story. If it were not for the manner in which the IRFU managed the transition, Leinster and Munster could well still be playing their inter provincials in front of a few thousand people. In all the club v country debate, we should never lose sight of that.

I've been involved in running organisations in Football. Dont ever wish that the IRFU was run more like the FAI.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

No, those sums don't add up.

Well, Sexton's current deal is €500k p.a. or thereabouts. So that's a gap of 250k.

If Leinster win their pool and get a home quarter-final in next year's HEC, they would make that 250k back (many times over) in one weekend from the rental income on Aviva stadium & meritocracy fees from ERC. Leinster's chances of doing so are greatly reduced without Sexton.

[And you can deduct from that 250k the appearance fees etc that Sexton will be paid by IRFU for his time with the national team.]

IRFU don't want to set a precedent, that is the issue.

The IRFU have a wage structure. They cannot afford to move that wage structure, expescially when all the players are unionised and sharing agents. So they could not afford to pay Sexton.

It's extrememly simple. Blaming the IRFU is nuts. You can be sure they did everything in their power to keep him.

dowistrepla

You can't simply blame the IRFU for not being able to hold onto Sexton when the French offer was so staggeringly large.


On the other hand though, I'm not sure the manner they've approached the negotiations has helped. Surely they should have realised that a world class player whose contract was running out would be in high demand, and therefore started negotiations much earlier. Sexton(or was it his agent?) intimated he was disappointed how late the IRFU were in beginning negotiations.

As to the job the IRFU have done so far in keeping our best players here, that may be true but its hard to know without the concrete figures of what players were offered. And the Eddie O'Sullivan contract extension saga hardly paints them in a great light.

TL;DR Money was definitely the deciding factor but I think the IRFU also got complacent.

twinytwo

P_1 wrote: »

Strongly influenced by the Sexton and Puma news.

Who is in charge of the business dealings in the IRFU? What is their expertise? We now have professional players, coaches etc but do we have professional administrators?

Lets look at a few key business/administrative decisions that the IRFU have made and compare them with how the provinces are handling things.

1 - The stadium. The IRFU have saddled us with a deal with Aviva that means every full test has to be played in Lansdowne Road. We now have the farcical situation where a match that won't sell out (say a match against one of the PIs) has to be treated as an A match. Now Leinster have the deal with the RDS where they have to play a minimum of 12 matches a season there giving the option of moving bigger matches to Lansdowne. On balance I'd say the provinces made the better deal there.

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

3 - Sponsorships. So the Puma deal has bitten the dust. Have the IRFU got any compensation for this? Essentially Puma broke their contract by pulling out of the Rugby market. We don't have an example of how the provinces would have handled this to be fair.

Basically the point that I'm trying to make is that the provinces have people who are experts in this field to look after the admin side of things and the IRFU have individuals who I'm sure are talented in their own fields but I wouldn't say are up to much in terms of looking after the admin side of things for rugby, looking after the admin side of things.

Think about it, we have professional coaches, it makes sense to also have professional administrators.

its an impossible situation.. had the irfu met the sexton offer... they would have to do the same for healy,sob, kearney etc because there are many teams that would love these players... it would very quickly become farsical

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

But they do have very different objectives. Very different

Flagship pro teams and development teams leading promotion of game in clubs, schools and an expanding supporters market is the objective of both union and its branches, I would have thought.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

Flagship pro teams and development teams leading promotion of game in clubs, schools and an expanding supporters market is the objective of both union and its branches, I would have thought.

I'm on my phone so can't really reply properly but I'm going to tear this to pieces when I get a chance.

marketty

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

We need to sell more ten year tickets!!

phog

danthefan wrote: »

I would suspect you're completely wrong in that.

Thinking inside the box you may be right, thinking outside the box and with some advice from the amateur association in Jones Road then you are probably wrong. I'm sure a sweetner could have been dreamed up if the funds were actually there. Off course another issue would be who else would Leinster have to sweeten deals for but then that's a problem for the Leinster blazers not the IRFU's

Kayless

Compared to the FAI the IRFU are doing a great job look at the amount of talent we have and most of them players are playing in Ireland the only thing I would hold against the IRFU is if they give Kidney another contract that IMO would be missed opportunity given that all of the provinces now have SH coaches

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

totallegend wrote:

But they do have very different objectives. Very different.

So when you have the central branch doing the negotiating for a provincial player, or dictating who a province may sign, that's where the problems arise.

Flagship pro teams and development teams leading promotion of game in clubs, schools and an expanding supporters market is the objective of both union and its branches, I would have thought.

Superficially, yes. As two heads of the same beast, of course the overall objective of the national set-up and the provinces is the same.

Where the problems arise is that the IRFU have decided that this objective can only be achieved through the success of the national side, to the detriment of the provincial set-up. It's both short-sighted and ignorant of the recent history and success of Irish rugby.

I've been following Irish rugby for a lot longer than most posters on this board (I'd imagine). I was there on the terraces at the 1991 World Cup when rugby was obscure at best and a joke at worst. Things hadn't improved much by 1999, when the crowds for home World Cup matches were laughable. It's like 'Nam, if you weren't there, you don't know how bad it was.

But I'd been at Lansdowne a few months prior to the World Cup as well; an atrocious game of rugby but the place was packed to the rafters and when the final whistle of the HEC final blew, the place went mental in a way I'd never really seen at a rugby game. This was uncharted waters for Irish rugby, you know the rest - Munster and their eight-year journey, Leinster becoming the best team in the history of the HEC etc etc.

My point is that international rugby was the main focus of Irish game for, what, 120 years? And we chugged along in contented mediocrity for most of that period, happy in our little bubble and not really noticed by most of the world. I come from a part of Dublin where I got funny looks when I told people I was going to Lansdowne on a Saturday and even funnier looks when I told people that I actually played the game.

Now where are we? Rugby has made great inroads into the huge swathes of the country in which it was a non-entity 15 or 20 years ago. The IRFU has done great work in developing underage rugby but it was the success of the provinces that drove the demand, the heroic exploits of Munster that sold jersey in their thousands and had kids in Tipperary and Waterford wanting to play rugby. Not the national team.

Now, as the national team suffers thanks to the incompetence of its coaching staff and the administrators who renewed their contracts, the IRFU is only too happy to sacrifice the provinces on the altar of the national team.

But the national team is the financial driver of the game in Ireland, isn't it? I have serious reservations about the veracity of that statement, but that's another argument. Certainly the provinces are closing the gap.

What is pretty clear to me is that the improvement in the public profile of the sport in recent years has been driven by the provinces. Take Jonny Sexton as the example; he should be the lynchpin of any upcoming marketing or sponsorship deals. I would freely admit to being a one-eyed Leinster fan at times, but even I can see that Sexton has yet to really stamp his authority as an international fly-half; his reputation, his pre-eminence in the race for the Lions and his marketability have been built on his awe-inspiring performances for Leinster.

The failures of the national team will see the provinces become less competitive as foreign players are hounded out or discouraged from coming in the first place. And now we face the spectre of losing our best home-grown players too.

Should the IRFU have broken the bank to keep Sexton? No. Could they have engaged in some sort of cost-sharing deal with Leinster to keep him? I don't see why not. Having Sexton at Leinster means Leinster are more likely to qualify for HEC knock-outs which means more money for IRFU. A no-brainer? Well, apparently not.

The fear is always that they'll set a precedent. B*llocks. Not every player is Jonny Sexton. If, next year, Rob Kearney (for example) says "you gave Jonny this deal, I want the same", the answer has to be "Sorry Rob, you're not as important to the team as he is". Isn't that the way of all negotiations?

The IRFU simply weren't that pushed to keep Sexton; simple as that. This is a win-win as they see it. Someone else pays his salary, Ireland get to call him when needed, it's a two-year deal so he'll be back in time for the next World Cup. And now we hear that Sexton has additional releases in his contract, beyond IRB requirements, for Ireland camps. The IRFU will be delighted with that outcome.

People are comparing the IRFU favourably with the FAI. Yes, absolutely, the FAI are a model of how not to do things. But the IRFU have one advantage; they have world-class players on show at the provinces week in, week out. If we no longer have that, either by fewer top-class foreigners coming here or by losing our native players, that advantage begins to disappear. If it comes to pass that the provinces become less successful or less attractive, it is inevitable that public interest in the team will suffer. And how is that good for the game?

But I don't expect the blazers at IRFU to understand that.

irishbucsfan

In what ways are the objectives counter-intuitive? Where does the conflict occur?

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In what ways are the objectives counter-intuitive? Where does the conflict occur?

As per my post above; in the policies for signing and retaining players.

There's also the player-welfare system which has seriously diluted the quality of a large percentage of Rabo games without delivering any improvement in national results.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

As per my post above; in the policies for signing and retaining players.

There's also the player-welfare system which has seriously diluted the quality of a large percentage of Rabo games without delivering any improvement in national results.

In practice though, what are examples of the problems with player retention? Leinster certainly would never have been able to compete with Racing Metro on their own.

I am no expert on the player welfare scheme. I don't know the extent of the advantages it offers so I have no idea if it's worth it. We might see an end to it if the Rabo changes perhaps.

However the Player Welfare scheme really doesn't have anything to do with the blazers, does it?

CatFromHue

I don't know if you can say it was just the provinces who drove the game into being more popular as the national team itself was more successful in the early 2000's which would have gathered alot of attention as well.

The lowest placed we finished between 2000 and 2004 in the 6N was third and we finished second three times. As you know yourself that would have been undreamed of in the 90's. I think now the provinces have taken over more so in the publics eye as they're more successful, certainly since 2009 but for me it was the success of the national team that really drove the emergence of rugby.

The 02/03 HEC final in Dublin between Toulouse and Perpignan had only 28600 at it, which from memory actually seems like a bit of an exaggeration. As seen by the ticket demand for this years HEC final there's no chance there'll be such a poor attendance again. Yet at this time it was impossible to get tickets for big Ireland games.

On the Sexton issue I don't think a pay share agreement between Leinster and the IRFU is a runner at all. As we've seen from football clubs in England that if you have bad financial management you will get into massive difficulties. I don't know the full ins and outs of the contract negotiations between the IRFU and Sexton but if it is reported that the numbers he's being offered in France are true it's just too much for us to compete with.

P_1

CatFromHue wrote: »

On the Sexton issue I don't think a pay share agreement between Leinster and the IRFU is a runner at all. As we've seen from football clubs in England that if you have bad financial management you will get into massive difficulties. I don't know the full ins and outs of the contract negotiations between the IRFU and Sexton but if it is reported that the numbers he's being offered in France are true it's just too much for us to compete with.

On that point, tbh I'd have said that a pay share agreement could well have worked.

As I posted over on the other thread, the 3 main ways to match the shortfall would be:
1 - Increase ticket/merchandise prices - probably a non runner given the state of the economy.
2 - Try to get more sponsors in - possibly a runner, but difficult to do given the state of the economy.
3 - Take money out of the amateur game - certainly a non-runner

Now if you were to look at Leinster, as a brand they have businesses falling all over themselves to get associated with. Certain sponsorship contracts are up for renewal at the end of the year, I would have faith in the admins of Leinster Rugby being able to negotiate a successful deal making them able to match the price difference for the Sexton contract without breaking the bank.

CatFromHue

The thing, or one of the things, I don't like about that arrangement is that the club would be banking on getting itself some big sponsors and using their sponsorship money before they've got them. This is a very bad idea to me.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Superficially, yes. As two heads of the same beast, of course the overall objective of the national set-up and the provinces is the same.

Where the problems arise is that the IRFU have decided that this objective can only be achieved through the success of the national side, to the detriment of the provincial set-up. It's both short-sighted and ignorant of the recent history and success of Irish rugby

I don't see how you can qualify this claim of seperate goals at all.

totallegend wrote: »

I've been following Irish rugby for a lot longer than most posters on this board (I'd imagine). I was there on the terraces at the 1991 World Cup when rugby was obscure at best and a joke at worst. Things hadn't improved much by 1999, when the crowds for home World Cup matches were laughable. It's like 'Nam, if you weren't there, you don't know how bad it was

I was there for both of those RWCs. You're saying that crowds were paltry? Lansdowne road was at a minimum half-full for the Japanese and Zimbabwean games in 1991. For the QF v Australia, it was packed to rafters and the crowd hit the roof when Hamilton went over for the try. For the NZ v Australia semi-final, it was also packed.
In 1999, Ireland v Australia at Lansdowne road was in fact the first game in that RWC to sell out. At least 30,000 were present at the Romanian game and the house was almost full at USA game to see Keith Wood score four tries. Thomond Park was packed out for USA v Australia. I believe Argentina v France at Lansdowne was also very well attended (I had returned to Australia where I was living at the time, by then). What was laughable about all that??

totallegend wrote: »

But I'd been at Lansdowne a few months prior to the World Cup as well; an atrocious game of rugby but the place was packed to the rafters and when the final whistle of the HEC final blew, the place went mental in a way I'd never really seen at a rugby game. This was uncharted waters for Irish rugby, you know the rest - Munster and their eight-year journey, Leinster becoming the best team in the history of the HEC etc etc

And?
People go loopy when their team wins, especially a trophy. Cardiff on March 21st 2009 for example and rugby followers. Even the local GAA club here was stuff to rafters for that match. The effects of the Grand Slam win from what I witnessed, or took part in myself even, was unprecedented. The reach of that win went wider than any other team, national or otherwise.

totallegend wrote: »

My point is that international rugby was the main focus of Irish game for, what, 120 years? And we chugged along in contented mediocrity for most of that period, happy in our little bubble and not really noticed by most of the world. I come from a part of Dublin where I got funny looks when I told people I was going to Lansdowne on a Saturday and even funnier looks when I told people that I actually played the game.

Now where are we? Rugby has made great inroads into the huge swathes of the country in which it was a non-entity 15 or 20 years ago. The IRFU has done great work in developing underage rugby but it was the success of the provinces that drove the demand, the heroic exploits of Munster that sold jersey in their thousands and had kids in Tipperary and Waterford wanting to play rugby. Not the national team

Again, this is quite a subjective claim to make. Of course, provincial success is instrumental in spreading the game (Tipp has always been a great North Munster region, by the way, but that's another matter), that's why a particular programme/assistance gets put in place for areas in schools, clubs, referee, medical, coaching training etc.

totallegend wrote: »

Now, as the national team suffers thanks to the incompetence of its coaching staff and the administrators who renewed their contracts, the IRFU is only too happy to sacrifice the provinces on the altar of the national team

But the national team is the financial driver of the game in Ireland, isn't it? I have serious reservations about the veracity of that statement, but that's another argument. Certainly the provinces are closing the gap

Yes, it is and in tandem with provincial game revenue, it boosts coffers to run and promote the sport in Ireland.
Remember the make-up of the IRFU and its provinces. Clubs elect members to provincial boards, provinces elect members to national board level. The IRFU is made up of the clubs. To claim that it laughs at or gains satisfaction from some purported dig at its own provinces is ludicrous.

totallegend wrote: »

The failures of the national team will see the provinces become less competitive as foreign players are hounded out or discouraged from coming in the first place. And now we face the spectre of losing our best home-grown players too

So now the national level of the game does affect the success of the provinces?

totallegend wrote: »

Should the IRFU have broken the bank to keep Sexton? No. Could they have engaged in some sort of cost-sharing deal with Leinster to keep him? I don't see why not. Having Sexton at Leinster means Leinster are more likely to qualify for HEC knock-outs which means more money for IRFU. A no-brainer? Well, apparently not.

You, and I, for that matter, have not one jot of an iota of any detail in contractual negotiations of any player, what was said or how they went on.

totallegend wrote: »

The IRFU simply weren't that pushed to keep Sexton; simple as that . . .

I find this ridiculous and entirely baseless.
I see your argument about his inclusion meaning Leinster succeed etc. He's a truly great player in an important position. No single player is a team however.

totallegend wrote: »

People are comparing the IRFU favourably with the FAI. Yes, absolutely, the FAI are a model of how not to do things. But the IRFU have one advantage; they have world-class players on show at the provinces week in, week out. If we no longer have that, either by fewer top-class foreigners coming here or by losing our native players, that advantage begins to disappear. If it comes to pass that the provinces become less successful or less attractive, it is inevitable that public interest in the team will suffer. And how is that good for the game?

Quite.
Do you include Jonathan Sexton in that list of world class players? Even though you "can see that Sexton has yet to really stamp his authority as an international fly-half"?
Just asking.

Thanks for reply all the same. Was a read.
Respectfully, I disagree with your claims or interpretations of the whys and why nots with my reasons in this post.
If the IRFU didn't care about player signings, there would have been an exodus years ago. French rugby didn't just find private money overnight or last week.

P_1

CatFromHue wrote: »

The thing, or one of the things, I don't like about that arrangement is that the club would be banking on getting itself some big sponsors and using their sponsorship money before they've got them. This is a very bad idea to me.

Well the idea would be that they should know what offers are there on the table before committing to that sort of deal.

Remember that the people who look after that sort of thing are very good at what they do and wouldn't be gambling on bringing in the big contract as such.

liammur

Kayless wrote: »

Compared to the FAI the IRFU are doing a great job look at the amount of talent we have and most of them players are playing in Ireland the only thing I would hold against the IRFU is if they give Kidney another contract that IMO would be missed opportunity given that all of the provinces now have SH coaches

Correct.
Some of the posts blaming the IRFU are completely absurd. A bit like blaming the FAI if a player leaves Sligo Rovers for Everton.

Facts are, we can't compete money-wise. Never have been, and never will be.

We've done a damn good in keeping the likes of POC/ROG/O Driscoll etc here for the duration of their careers. The players themselves too deserve credit of course.

jamiedav2011

liammur wrote: »

Correct.
Some of the posts blaming the IRFU are completely absurd. A bit like blaming the FAI if a player leaves Sligo Rovers for Everton.

Facts are, we can't compete money-wise. Never have been, and never will be.

We've done a damn good in keeping the likes of POC/ROG/O Driscoll etc here for the duration of their careers. The players themselves too deserve credit of course.

Is it now?

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

Correct.
Some of the posts blaming the IRFU are completely absurd. A bit like blaming the FAI if a player leaves Sligo Rovers for Everton.

Facts are, we can't compete money-wise. Never have been, and never will be.

We've done a damn good in keeping the likes of POC/ROG/O Driscoll etc here for the duration of their careers. The players themselves too deserve credit of course.

Not it's not, at all. The FAI don't own Sligo Rovers. IRFU has full control here. For what it's worth I don't blame the IRFU either.

However if the IRFU used the 'saved money' to extend the international contract of an international level has been, then it's ****ing stupid.

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not it's not, at all. The FAI don't own Sligo Rovers. IRFU has full control here. For what it's worth I don't blame the IRFU either.

However if the IRFU used the 'saved money' to extend the international contract of an international level has been, then it's ****ing stupid.

What do you mean by that?

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

The IRFU have saved €500k on Sexton. That money should be used to keep appropriate players who could leave in a similar fashion (the likes of Healy, Kearney, Murray) , not players who are coming to the end of their careers where the IRFU have the leverage of the tax rebate.

P_1

liammur wrote: »

Correct.
Some of the posts blaming the IRFU are completely absurd. A bit like blaming the FAI if a player leaves Sligo Rovers for Everton.

Facts are, we can't compete money-wise. Never have been, and never will be.

We've done a damn good in keeping the likes of POC/ROG/O Driscoll etc here for the duration of their careers. The players themselves too deserve credit of course.

I see where you're coming from but your example is a bit off the mark IMO.

To give an example of where I see the IRFU getting this wrong in relation to the Sexton example.

Say you're bidding to buy a house, you have the money and are able to afford a bit of a bidding war with a 3rd party but effictively your father steps in and forbids you from getting into this bidding war even though you can afford it.

In the Sexton example, Sexton is the house, Racing Metro are the 3rd party, the IRFU is your father and you are Leinster

CatFromHue

P_1 wrote: »

Say you're bidding to buy a house, you have the money and are able to afford a bit of a bidding war with a 3rd party but effictively your father steps in and forbids you from getting into this bidding war even though you can afford it.

In the Sexton example, Sexton is the house, Racing Metro are the 3rd party, the IRFU is your father and you are Leinster

To be directed by M. Night. Shyamalan :pac:

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

The IRFU have saved €500k on Sexton. That money should be used to keep appropriate players who could leave in a similar fashion (the likes of Healy, Kearney, Murray) , not players who are coming to the end of their careers where the IRFU have the leverage of the tax rebate.

But they can't. That's the worry. If Toulouse came in with 750K for Murray, what can the IRFU do?

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

But they can't. That's the worry. If Toulouse came in with 750K for Murray, what can the IRFU do?

Probably nothing, but at least try to use the money on the right players.

If ROG gets an extension I'll freak out.

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

Probably nothing, but at least try to use the money on the right players.

If ROG gets an extension I'll freak out.

On that point you are spot on.

But IRFU should NOT get involved in bidding wars. They'll go bust if they do. They should be prepared to pay the players very well, but that's all.