The IRFU, is it time to replace the blazers?

P_1

Strongly influenced by the Sexton and Puma news.

Who is in charge of the business dealings in the IRFU? What is their expertise? We now have professional players, coaches etc but do we have professional administrators?

Lets look at a few key business/administrative decisions that the IRFU have made and compare them with how the provinces are handling things.

1 - The stadium. The IRFU have saddled us with a deal with Aviva that means every full test has to be played in Lansdowne Road. We now have the farcical situation where a match that won't sell out (say a match against one of the PIs) has to be treated as an A match. Now Leinster have the deal with the RDS where they have to play a minimum of 12 matches a season there giving the option of moving bigger matches to Lansdowne. On balance I'd say the provinces made the better deal there.

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

3 - Sponsorships. So the Puma deal has bitten the dust. Have the IRFU got any compensation for this? Essentially Puma broke their contract by pulling out of the Rugby market. We don't have an example of how the provinces would have handled this to be fair.

Basically the point that I'm trying to make is that the provinces have people who are experts in this field to look after the admin side of things and the IRFU have individuals who I'm sure are talented in their own fields but I wouldn't say are up to much in terms of looking after the admin side of things for rugby, looking after the admin side of things.

Think about it, we have professional coaches, it makes sense to also have professional administrators.

CIARAN_BOYLE

P_1 wrote: »

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

Fishooks13

ffs this is ridiculously reactionary stuff

CatFromHue

1. The Aviva pay alot of money to sponsor the stadium and realistically not many Ireland games are played away from Lansdowne anyway! From memory I can only think of Fiji this year, Canada in 2009, a friendly before the RWC in both 2011 and 2007 and a game against the BaaBaas in 2010. Most of these games should be classed as A games anyway.

2. The IRFU/Leinster are right to let Sexton go if he is offered that amount of money. It would be bad financial management to try and match it.

3. The sponsorship thing only happened yesterday so all the details are still unknown.

P_1

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

Fishooks13

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

Lack of a Denis O Brien?

totallegend

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

No, those sums don't add up.

Well, Sexton's current deal is €500k p.a. or thereabouts. So that's a gap of 250k.

If Leinster win their pool and get a home quarter-final in next year's HEC, they would make that 250k back (many times over) in one weekend from the rental income on Aviva stadium & meritocracy fees from ERC. Leinster's chances of doing so are greatly reduced without Sexton.

[And you can deduct from that 250k the appearance fees etc that Sexton will be paid by IRFU for his time with the national team.]

IRFU don't want to set a precedent, that is the issue.

Risteard

If it's true that Sexton is earning €750,000 then there's absolutely nothing that the IRFU could have done. They just cannot compete with that kind of cash.

As for the Puma deal, that's more to do with Puma who are pulling out of the European rugby market than it does with the IRFU. Plus I'm pretty sure I've read that they have been compensated for it.

danthefan

I don't really blame the IRFU. They were outbid, end of story really.

P_1

Fishooks13 wrote: »

ffs this is ridiculously reactionary stuff

Yes it is reactionary, mainly because we have the potential for a massive problem.

Look at the Welsh regions, they can't keep their best players, do we want the same to happen with the provinces?

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

Winters

I for one and delighted that the IRFU didnt exceed their pay structure to keep Sexton. Their remit to develop and run both professional and amateur rugby on this island is the core.

Fishooks13

P_1 wrote: »

Yes it is reactionary, mainly because we have the potential for a massive problem.

Look at the Welsh regions, they can't keep their best players, do we want the same to happen with the provinces?

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

Yes we do. The IRFU have done a fantastic job in keeping the vast majority of our top talent playing at home during the pro era but there comes a point where they simply can't match the offers of some French clubs. Not sure what you expect them to do? Match Racing even though it's not financially sustainable

All this is ignoring the fact that Sexton has won 3 HC's with Leinster. Maybe he just wants a new challenge with a new club making a serious investment in players and the money is a nice bonus

Noopti

Get a grip *people...

* P_1

danthefan

Winters wrote: »

I for one and delighted that the IRFU didnt exceed their pay structure to keep Sexton. Their remit to develop and run both professional and amateur rugby on this island is the core.

You say that as if there is some defined pay structure. Is there?

phog

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

If Leinster had someone to stump up the money they could have offered Sexton a contract there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing so, other than the obvious one, lack of funds.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

If Leinster had someone to stump up the money they could have offered Sexton a contract there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing so, other than the obvious one, lack of funds.

I would suspect you're completely wrong in that.

leeroybrown

Silly reactionary stuff here. The IRFU player retention scheme mainly relies on the tax breaks negotiated with the Revenue for players who stay in Ireland for 10 years. In Sexton's case he became a top level player late in his career and he's 28 already. The numbers stack up in favour of him leaving for a big contract rather than staying for a tax rebate.

Winters

danthefan wrote: »

You say that as if there is some defined pay structure. Is there?

Yes there is. There are different types of contracts and pay grades. The top contracts are negotiated obviously but there is a budget and there are ceilings.

P_1

I think the main problem here is the difference in overall objectives between the IRFU and the provinces.

Effectively, at the top level, the provinces are almost like clubs these days. Their overall objective is to have as much success as a club (winning trophies, making money, keeping the best players etc).

At the top level, the IRFU's overall objective is to have as much success internationally.

Now both the provinces and the IRFU also have the objective of promoting the game at all levels and making sure that there's enough cash in the kitty to ensure this.

So we have the conflict between the provinces and the IRFU. If I understand the rules correctly, once the IRFU has made the decision, the provinces have no autonomy whatsoever to try influence things for their own benefit.

I suppose something like this was inevitable after the provinces have gotten so successful and the fortunes of the international team have dropped.

Where do we draw the line? (I think my own feelings on the matter are pretty well established at this stage)

JustinDee

No conflict.
International level of the game while the biggest earner in Ireland, also compliments the provincial game as the provincial game in turn compliments the international game.
The thread starter posts as if the IRFU and its branches are separate entities. They are not.

Gambas

P_1 wrote: »

do we have professional administrators?

Yes.

Heroditas

P_1 wrote: »

My main point is that we have professional coaches, do we have professional administrators?

What do you think Philip Browne and his team are? Volunteers?

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

No conflict.
International level of the game while the biggest earner in Ireland, also compliments the provincial game as the provincial game in turn compliments the international game.
The thread starter posts as if the IRFU and its branches are separate entities. They are not.

But they do have very different objectives. Very different.

So when you have the central branch doing the negotiating for a provincial player, or dictating who a province may sign, that's where the problems arise.

Rigor Mortis

P_1 wrote: »

Look at the deal the FAI negotiated with Trappatoni.

FAI pays half, Denis O'Brien pays the other half.

Now Leinster Rugby have a very good admin team behind the scenes, what's stopping them from working out a similar deal with a wealthy benefactor to outbid Racing Metro?

That is one contract, The IRFU have to manage many more contracts than that, worth well in excess of what trap costs.

Unhappy and all as I am, this aint the IRFU's fault. In the professional era Irish rugby has punched way above its weight at both provincial and international level. None of the other four 'home nations' have done that. Wales have had international but not club, England has had some international and some club (even this has been under performance), Scotland have had nothing. You could even make a case that for their resources that France have under performed.

The IRFU have provided the seed capital for Leinster, Munster and Ulster, Connacht is a different story. If it were not for the manner in which the IRFU managed the transition, Leinster and Munster could well still be playing their inter provincials in front of a few thousand people. In all the club v country debate, we should never lose sight of that.

I've been involved in running organisations in Football. Dont ever wish that the IRFU was run more like the FAI.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

No, those sums don't add up.

Well, Sexton's current deal is €500k p.a. or thereabouts. So that's a gap of 250k.

If Leinster win their pool and get a home quarter-final in next year's HEC, they would make that 250k back (many times over) in one weekend from the rental income on Aviva stadium & meritocracy fees from ERC. Leinster's chances of doing so are greatly reduced without Sexton.

[And you can deduct from that 250k the appearance fees etc that Sexton will be paid by IRFU for his time with the national team.]

IRFU don't want to set a precedent, that is the issue.

The IRFU have a wage structure. They cannot afford to move that wage structure, expescially when all the players are unionised and sharing agents. So they could not afford to pay Sexton.

It's extrememly simple. Blaming the IRFU is nuts. You can be sure they did everything in their power to keep him.

dowistrepla

You can't simply blame the IRFU for not being able to hold onto Sexton when the French offer was so staggeringly large.


On the other hand though, I'm not sure the manner they've approached the negotiations has helped. Surely they should have realised that a world class player whose contract was running out would be in high demand, and therefore started negotiations much earlier. Sexton(or was it his agent?) intimated he was disappointed how late the IRFU were in beginning negotiations.

As to the job the IRFU have done so far in keeping our best players here, that may be true but its hard to know without the concrete figures of what players were offered. And the Eddie O'Sullivan contract extension saga hardly paints them in a great light.

TL;DR Money was definitely the deciding factor but I think the IRFU also got complacent.

twinytwo

P_1 wrote: »

Strongly influenced by the Sexton and Puma news.

Who is in charge of the business dealings in the IRFU? What is their expertise? We now have professional players, coaches etc but do we have professional administrators?

Lets look at a few key business/administrative decisions that the IRFU have made and compare them with how the provinces are handling things.

1 - The stadium. The IRFU have saddled us with a deal with Aviva that means every full test has to be played in Lansdowne Road. We now have the farcical situation where a match that won't sell out (say a match against one of the PIs) has to be treated as an A match. Now Leinster have the deal with the RDS where they have to play a minimum of 12 matches a season there giving the option of moving bigger matches to Lansdowne. On balance I'd say the provinces made the better deal there.

2 - Player appointments. So it seems that thanks to the IRFU's contract system we're going to see Sexton move to France and Leinster could not make a counter offer due to their hands being tied by the rules. Could Leinster have handled the negotiations better than the IRFU? I'd imagine that they could have.

3 - Sponsorships. So the Puma deal has bitten the dust. Have the IRFU got any compensation for this? Essentially Puma broke their contract by pulling out of the Rugby market. We don't have an example of how the provinces would have handled this to be fair.

Basically the point that I'm trying to make is that the provinces have people who are experts in this field to look after the admin side of things and the IRFU have individuals who I'm sure are talented in their own fields but I wouldn't say are up to much in terms of looking after the admin side of things for rugby, looking after the admin side of things.

Think about it, we have professional coaches, it makes sense to also have professional administrators.

its an impossible situation.. had the irfu met the sexton offer... they would have to do the same for healy,sob, kearney etc because there are many teams that would love these players... it would very quickly become farsical

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

But they do have very different objectives. Very different

Flagship pro teams and development teams leading promotion of game in clubs, schools and an expanding supporters market is the objective of both union and its branches, I would have thought.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

Flagship pro teams and development teams leading promotion of game in clubs, schools and an expanding supporters market is the objective of both union and its branches, I would have thought.

I'm on my phone so can't really reply properly but I'm going to tear this to pieces when I get a chance.

marketty

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think anyone in Ireland has the budget to outbid Racing's offer of €750K a year

We need to sell more ten year tickets!!

phog

danthefan wrote: »

I would suspect you're completely wrong in that.

Thinking inside the box you may be right, thinking outside the box and with some advice from the amateur association in Jones Road then you are probably wrong. I'm sure a sweetner could have been dreamed up if the funds were actually there. Off course another issue would be who else would Leinster have to sweeten deals for but then that's a problem for the Leinster blazers not the IRFU's