Restaurant bans children...

Tombo2001 · 24-01-2013 07:18PM

Millicent wrote: »

No, no, it's not. It's completely fucking insulting to the struggles people with disabilities are forced to go through in this country.

I am not the spokesperson for all disabled people. However, I have been out on many occasions with my friend who is a wheelchair user, and seen how often we cannot enter a premises because it's not accessible, or heard her ring ahead to see if she can be accommodated. None of this is illegal, btw, in case you care.

She has no choice not to use that chair. She requires it for mobility. Parents have a choice to take their child out of a buggy or fold it up. They can choose to eat in one of the hundreds of other restaurants that cater for children. Children are not discriminated against in the way that people with disabilities are.

Comparing one restaurant not allowing children in for 10-14 hours a week with what she has to put up with everyday from asshole businesses is disgraceful and anyone who is making that comparison should be ashamed of themselves.

Is your starting point that its ok to discriminate against children and that its not ok to discriminate against disabled people? (to be simplistic about it).

old hippy · 24-01-2013 07:24PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Is your starting point that its ok to discriminate against children and that its not ok to discriminate against disabled people? (to be simplistic about it).

Children aren't discriminated against :rolleyes:

There's a strip club up the road from me. I've seen wheelchair users go in but never a child. Such blatant discrimination! Shall I write my MP?

Millicent · 24-01-2013 07:26PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Is your starting point that its ok to discriminate against children and that its not ok to discriminate against disabled people? (to be simplistic about it).

My starting point is that one restaurant in the hundreds of restaurants in Ireland has said children are a health and safety risk at peak times. Which they can be. I've waitressed and can vouch for the danger of a child coming flying at your legs while you're holding hot plates or pots of tea while the parents have a chat between themselves not supervising their own kids.

It is insane that you think this is on a par with accessibility issues for people with disabilities.

Tombo2001 · 24-01-2013 07:29PM

Millicent wrote: »

My starting point is that one restaurant in the hundreds of restaurants in Ireland has said children are a health and safety risk at peak times. Which they can be. I've waitressed and can vouch for the danger of a child coming flying at your legs while you're holding hot plates or pots of tea while the parents have a chat between themselves not supervising their own kids.

It is insane that you think this is on a par with accessibility issues for people with disabilities.

its nothing to do with health and safety and everything to do with pissing off the other customers......and I think thats fair enough, but lets call a spade a spade here.

Millicent · 24-01-2013 07:30PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

its nothing to do with health and safety and everything to do with pissing off the other customers......and I think thats fair enough, but lets call a spade a spade here.

So you're going to completely disregard what people with experience of the health and safety risk are telling you? Well that's conducive to having a discussion...

MrCreosote · 24-01-2013 08:49PM

It still baffles me why people are so precious that they can't have dinner with a quiet, well-behaved child in the same room.

CaraMay · 24-01-2013 08:59PM

The restaurant owner has to make a living and regular customers were complaining about the number of kids so he was right to do what he did.

RainyDay · 24-01-2013 09:49PM

Millicent wrote: »

My starting point is that one restaurant in the hundreds of restaurants in Ireland has said children are a health and safety risk at peak times. Which they can be. I've waitressed and can vouch for the danger of a child coming flying at your legs while you're holding hot plates or pots of tea while the parents have a chat between themselves not supervising their own kids.

It is insane that you think this is on a par with accessibility issues for people with disabilities.

Can't your friend in the wheelchair just go to other restaurants, you know, the ones without steps at the entrance? That's what you expect parents of children to do, so why not expect disabled people to do the same?

For the record, I don't want to see any discrimination against disabled people, or against children, but you can't have one without the other.

Feathers · 24-01-2013 11:02PM

RainyDay wrote: »

For the record, I don't want to see any discrimination against disabled people, or against children, but you can't have one without the other.

Actually, it seems that you can:

Equal Status Act, 2000 3.2&#8211 wrote: »

(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(f) subject to subsection (3), that they are of different ages (the “age ground”),
(g) that one is a person with a disability and the other either is not or is a person with a different disability (the “disability ground”),

(3) Treating a person who has not attained the age of 18 years less favourably or more favourably than another, whatever that other person's age, shall not be regarded as discrimination on the age ground.

RainyDay · 24-01-2013 11:29PM

Feathers wrote: »

Actually, it seems that you can:

Actually, it seems that you can't. Check out the link to the Equality Tribunal case that I posted earlier, showing the pub that had to pay out to the family who were refused because they had a child with them. And search the Equality Tribunal site for the other similar cases that have come up over the years.

awec · 24-01-2013 11:36PM

MrCreosote wrote: »

It still baffles me why people are so precious that they can't have dinner with a quiet, well-behaved child in the same room.

If you don't like this restaurants decision go elsewhere. The only person being precious here is you.

You are so precious that you'd take your kids along to a wedding that they were not even invited to, and expect them to be catered for. That is the height of ignorance, but that's totally lost on you.

gingernut125 · 24-01-2013 11:41PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Actually, it seems that you can't. Check out the link to the Equality Tribunal case that I posted earlier, showing the pub that had to pay out to the family who were refused because they had a child with them. And search the Equality Tribunal site for the other similar cases that have come up over the years.

There's 66 pages on this thread, could you repost the link please, thanks

CrowWoman · 24-01-2013 11:42PM

I'm particularly amused that this restaurant's website boasts itself traditional Italian, ignoring the fact that in Italy food is a particularly family affair.

I've been a parent for the best part of two decades and I've taken my children to any number of restaurants. When they were very young, if they became unsettled I took them outside. It may have disrupted my meal but I can promise it didn't bother anybody else's. I've raised good-mannered and socially able young adults who can manage a menu, order food unselfconsciously, and don't consider McDonalds to be the height of fine dining.

I don't think children belong in pubs, even the ones that serve food, and although I've also seen the occasional badly-behaved brat, the majority of children just sit nicely and enjoy their meal.

I acknowledge the establishment's right to impose the ban, but I wouldn't eat there either with or without my kids.

Electric Sheep · 24-01-2013 11:51PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Can't your friend in the wheelchair just go to other restaurants, you know, the ones without steps at the entrance? That's what you expect parents of children to do, so why not expect disabled people to do the same?

For the record, I don't want to see any discrimination against disabled people, or against children, but you can't have one without the other.

If you think steps at the entrance is the only problem faced by wheelchair users, think again. Steps inside, restrooms up several stairs, down several stairs, or even a whole flight. "Handicapped" cubicles too small to manouvre, restrooms impossible to enter unaided in a wheelchair.

There is only ONE restaurant in Kilkenny City that I found that could be considered genuinely wheelchair accessible.

RainyDay · 25-01-2013 12:07AM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

If you think steps at the entrance is the only problem faced by wheelchair users, think again. Steps inside, restrooms up several stairs, down several stairs, or even a whole flight. "Handicapped" cubicles too small to manouvre, restrooms impossible to enter unaided in a wheelchair.

I'm well aware of the problems for wheelchair users and other disabled people get into facilities and getting access to services. I'm also well aware that getting access to restaurants for parents and children is not just about bans. There are many more subtle ways for restaurateurs to restrict access to children, and some of those ways are mentioned on this thread - like having no child seats as one obvious example.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

There is only ONE restaurant in Kilkenny City that I found that could be considered genuinely wheelchair accessible.

http://smallerworld.ie/component/search/?searchword=&ordering=&searchphrase=all&areas=zoo&zoo_cat=6&zoo_county=kilkenny&mod_search=1

Smallerworld.ie suggests that there are least two accessible restaurants, and the Ormonde Hotel seems to be rated by their users too.

But it's not a numbers game. Discrimination is discrimination - regardless of how many or how few alternative restaurants are available.

MrCreosote · 25-01-2013 12:08AM

awec wrote: »

If you don't like this restaurants decision go elsewhere. The only person being precious here is you.

You are so precious that you'd take your kids along to a wedding that they were not even invited to, and expect them to be catered for. That is the height of ignorance, but that's totally lost on you.

Actually no- if anything the restaurant's decision makes me want to go there and make a scene to show how idiotic it is.

And for the last time- it wasn't me who brought kids to the wedding, it was someone else at a wedding I was at.

Junco Partner · 25-01-2013 05:37AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Actually no- if anything the restaurant's decision makes me want to go there and make a scene to show how idiotic it is.

That is so precious.

Bipolar Joe · 25-01-2013 06:31AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Actually no- if anything the restaurant's decision makes me want to go there and make a scene to show how idiotic it is.

So you would go out of your way just to ruin other people's night out? What a perfect example of being a twat.

errlloyd · 25-01-2013 07:04AM

Dunno if it has been said already, but I would probably pay Mr O Leary at least an extra 10% for a baby free flight.

Feathers · 25-01-2013 08:58AM

RainyDay wrote: »

Actually, it seems that you can't. Check out the link to the Equality Tribunal case that I posted earlier, showing the pub that had to pay out to the family who were refused because they had a child with them. And search the Equality Tribunal site for the other similar cases that have come up over the years.

I stand corrected! Though I always interpreted the family status ground as whether or not you had a child/were pregnant (e.g. on going for a job interview) rather than if you had a child with you.

The Equality Officer also notes it as an "interesting" interpretation by the judge:

It is interesting to note that this case is based on the family status ground, even though Ms Shanahan’s refusal was based not on the fact that she was a parent, but on the fact that she had a child under four years of age with her.

Frank Black · 25-01-2013 09:37AM

Millicent wrote: »

So you're going to completely disregard what people with experience of the health and safety risk are telling you? Well that's conducive to having a discussion...

Well, given your knoweledge and experience of the 1994 H&S legistation - perhaps you explain why a newborn baby represents a specific H&S risk in this restaurant at lunchtime.

ronjo · 25-01-2013 09:59AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

It still baffles me why people are so precious that they can't have dinner with a quiet, well-behaved child in the same room.

After 100million posts on the issue you really think this is peoples problem?????

MrCreosote · 25-01-2013 10:28AM

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

So you would go out of your way just to ruin other people's night out? What a perfect example of being a twat.

People aren't on a night out at 12 noon. And if hearing someone complain is the worst they have to deal with during the day then they have rather sheltered lives.

ronjo wrote: »

After 100million posts on the issue you really think this is peoples problem?????

That is the restaurant's problem- after all they are banning ALL children and their parents regardless of their behaviour

TwoShedsJackson · 25-01-2013 10:28AM

Why is anyone taking MrCreosote seriously after the 'Iseult' post?? He deserves credit for subtlety but come on...

ronjo · 25-01-2013 10:32AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

That is the restaurant's problem- after all they are banning ALL children and their parents regardless of their behaviour

Aha, sorry I misunderstood.

So you will be editing your post on the previous page you made in error about being baffled by PEOPLE being so precious to the RESTAURANT IN QUESTION being so precious I assume for correctness.
Fair play for admitting your error.

MrCreosote · 25-01-2013 10:45AM

ronjo wrote: »

Aha, sorry I misunderstood.

No problems.

ronjo wrote: »

So you will be editing your post on the previous page you made in error about being baffled by PEOPLE being so precious to the RESTAURANT IN QUESTION being so precious I assume for correctness.
Fair play for admitting your error.

Let me try to explain- these are two separate things, and there's no need to deliberately misunderstand me. Firstly "people"- people replying to this thread- have repeatedly said they can't stand children, don't want them on flights, don't want them in public- REGARDLESS of how they are going to behave. They just don't want to see them full stop. They are being precious.

The restaurant are picking up on this vibe. They're not being precious, they are being discrimatory (and possibly breaking the law)

ronjo · 25-01-2013 11:01AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

No problems.

Let me try to explain- these are two separate things, and there's no need to deliberately misunderstand me. Firstly "people"- people replying to this thread- have repeatedly said they can't stand children, don't want them on flights, don't want them in public- REGARDLESS of how they are going to behave. They just don't want to see them full stop. They are being precious.

The restaurant are picking up on this vibe. They're not being precious, they are being discrimatory (and possibly breaking the law)

To be honest I think so many people are digging their heels in on both sides of the argument so some middle ground should be found.
Some restaurants should be family friendly and some adult friendly for want of a better phrase.
That means that if you dont like kids you have a place to go to eat and if you do like kids you also have a place to go.
Everyone happy

RainyDay · 25-01-2013 11:08AM

ronjo wrote: »

That means that if you dont like kids you have a place to go to eat and if you do like kids you also have a place to go.
Everyone happy

And the same for black people - right? If I don't like eating with black people, I should find a restaurant that doesn't let them in? And if I don't like eating with people with disabilities, like the idiot in this story, I should find a restaurant that don't let them in.

And restaurants should be allowed discriminate against groups of people for no particular reason, other than the past behaviour of some other people in those groups - that's the kind of Ireland you want - right? Or have I misunderstood?

MrCreosote · 25-01-2013 11:09AM

ronjo wrote: »

To be honest I think so many people are digging their heels in on both sides of the argument so some middle ground should be found.
Some restaurants should be family friendly and some adult friendly for want of a better phrase.
That means that if you dont like kids you have a place to go to eat and if you do like kids you also have a place to go.
Everyone happy

A bit too conciliatory for me....but what the hell, I'm happy with that :cool:

Tombo2001 · 25-01-2013 11:11AM

Millicent wrote: »

So you're going to completely disregard what people with experience of the health and safety risk are telling you? Well that's conducive to having a discussion...

Are you talking about yourself? That you are some sort of authority on health and safety? because you once worked in a restaurant......?

I worked in a restaurant myself, and in a bar. I suppose that must make me a health and safety expert too so!!!

.....must remember to put that on my cv.....thanks for the heads up....

Restaurant bans children...

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