Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

itzme · 24-01-2013 08:04PM

frankosw wrote: »

Rebuilding a healthy state?

In the way it was healthy before the private sector via banks,developers and builders destryoyed it?

Who is administering the mess now? Who's taken on the extra workload via increased social welfare,more people wanting to go back to education and the serious social issues that have arisen as a result of the "healthy state"?

What galls me particularly is the level of non-tax compliance that is and was endemic throughout the private sector and now the PS are being told to take another paycut to bail them out?

The private sector should get its own house in order via FULL tax compliance,full VAT contributions and an end to upward only rent reviews beforte it can preach to the handfull of people keeping this country running.

Frank silentcorner was clearly not attempting to put forward an exhuastive list of those at fault for our current economic and societal problems. I think it is perfectly fair in a thread about CP2 to state where silentcorner thinks some of the roots of the problems that need addressing come from and that there are problems in the PS that need addressing.

All fair points silentcorner and agree completely on the attacks, unjustified and derailing the thread.

itzme · 24-01-2013 08:11PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The public export nothing. Fact. What type of evidence do you want to support that?

Spin out companies from universities, even if you do stupidly restrict economic return to just exporting goods and services (and not even profit or income generation). These companies do just that, they export goods and services, they came from the PS and PS employees and also even after they create private companies and move to the private sector the state holds a 10-20% stake in them. This means that the state through the companies it co-owns exports and generates revenue. Just one example, I could come up with more (Enterprise Ireland, SFI, academics acting as consultants.....)

For other posters I am not trying to say the PS generates enough income to pay its way or anything stupid like that but again this poster has thrown out another absolute statement which is false.

24-01-2013 08:47PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If the service is poor, staff are grumpy and just generally unpleasant what do you do?

You see there are matters of fact and matters of opinion. The public sector jump in the air if they come in on budget but what if you think the budget is way too high? Is that a fact or an opinion. Suffice to say I entered this thread sympathetic on the working hours. I work 60 hour weeks myself and it sucks. I hope the public sector stay on low hours - I am on your side.

However, what really irks me is you say the slightest critical think about the "service" you are eaten alive. Now that's a fact!

This is so weird, and absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making in the first place. My point was that people can feel that they are busy or rushed off their feet regardless of where they work or how many hours they work. Sometimes that's because they are busy, sometimes it's because of their personal perception.

But in the space of two replies to me you've gone completely off topic and into orbit rambling on with vague generalisations about the quality of service and management capability of organisations you can't even identify. And why? "Because I live in Ireland". To say that your line of argument lacks intellectual rigour is doing it a charitable service, to be honest.

24-01-2013 08:51PM

itzme wrote: »

http://www.ifut.ie/press-releases/press-release-20120420a.pdf.

http://www.ifut.ie/press-releases/press-release-20120420a.pdf.

Please don't take this the wrong way.......

....but can you possibly cite a source other than a press release from the union representing the workers involved? After all, the union isn't a dispassionate observer of the facts.

itzme · 24-01-2013 08:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Please don't take this the wrong way.......

....but can you possibly cite a source other than a press release from the union representing the workers involved? After all, the union isn't a dispassionate observer of the facts.

No problem with your reservations.

Unfortunately I don't have another source. I completely understand your reservations, however, I would point out that the research while coming from the president is actually coming from a known respected academic from the field of education and academics. She was doing the research as an academic not as president of IFUT, that would be my understanding. http://www.ucd.ie/education/staff/marieclarke/
And the research isn't just a random survey to support the unions views is part of a larger book on the topic Europe wide.

I hope this will help you trust the source but can understand why you wouldn't.

24-01-2013 09:17PM

kceire wrote: »

Thats against the law

What? You mean like a criminal offence? :rolleyes:

fliball123 wrote: »

I never said anything of the sort stop trying to deflect this thread is about CPII

It is? Some of the posts are, but most of the thread is just a series of rants about the public service.

Farmer Pudsey · 24-01-2013 10:31PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Your an idiot!

I'm out of this discussion and forum, I cant be arsed trying to discuss something reasonably when the thread and forum is filled with ****e like this.

2-1 he will be back

I see a bit of action back about workers in Tesco's ,Dunnes et al getting a pay rise. alot of these shops have part time staff also on most staff are on low wages ( not all) rise in PRSI would have effected there take home more than most. They would also have suffered by the rise in the cost of Public transport and Fuel.

These employers compete with welfare for there staff this is the main reason that they are seeing a pay rise it is not out of the goodness of MargaretsH heart.

Using pay rises to some of the lowest paid in the private sector and in the sector that it seems that has maintained it profitability is a bit sickening. Maybe some PS would like to leave there secure jobs for a new desk at the checkouts of Dunnes, Tesco's or Aldi (oops I forget that when the checkout is empty the Aldi worker hast to get up and stack shelves they be a demarcation dispute):eek:

K-9 · 24-01-2013 10:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is? Some of the posts are, but most of the thread is just a series of rants about the public service.

That has been noted so maybe we can get back to discussing the actual topic?

PS. This isn't a thread to rant about the evils of the Public or Private sector nor is it the place to call for a cut to pay of 50% nor tell people if they don't like it, leave. If they think the Irish economy forum is like that well, they'll be the ones leaving!

road_high · 24-01-2013 10:44PM

I agree FP. It's sickening indeed and downright absurd to claim that workers at (lets face it) the very lowest paid echelons of the workforce getting very modest pay increases in private industries that are very profitable should in some way justify Irish PS rate increases/maintenance of current rates.
Rates that have been kept afloat by increased taxes on the private sector and bailouts from the IMF. It goes to show the desperation and arrogance of the PS and there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink to justify their inflated salaries. Not forgetting increments ( a pay increase to my eyes) still continue on as if there's no multi billion deficit at all in the public purse.

Somehow I doubt we are going to see an exodus from the PS to the likes of Dunnes or Tesco any time soon.

repsol · 24-01-2013 10:45PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

2-1 he will be back

I see a bit of action back about workers in Tesco's ,Dunnes et al getting a pay rise. alot of these shops have part time staff also on most staff are on low wages ( not all) rise in PRSI would have effected there take home more than most. They would also have suffered by the rise in the cost of Public transport and Fuel.

These employers compete with welfare for there staff this is the main reason that they are seeing a pay rise it is not out of the goodness of MargaretsH heart.

Using pay rises to some of the lowest paid in the private sector and in the sector that it seems that has maintained it profitability is a bit sickening. Maybe some PS would like to leave there secure jobs for a new desk at the checkouts of Dunnes, Tesco's or Aldi (oops I forget that when the checkout is empty the Aldi worker hast to get up and stack shelves they be a demarcation dispute):eek:

Maybe the PS workers are well educated so they got a secure job and don't need to work on a checkout.If you are going to compare everyone's job to the checkout staff in supermarkets,most people would have better t&c's. There is "demarcation" in virtually all jobs. If there are cleaners in your job and you do not do any cleaning that is demarcation. Aldi checkout staff don't protect the store,they have security staff for that. The security don't clean the floors or work the tills etc.
Your arguments don't hold water.You come across as another begrudging PS hater

tenton · 24-01-2013 11:07PM

repsol wrote: »

Maybe the PS workers are well educated

so you think 300,000 people or thereabouts are all "well educated"?
You do realise some people now working in retail have degrees?

repsol wrote: »

so they got a secure job

the previous poster was talking about a job in Aldi. You think a job in one of Europes largest supermarket chains, the German owned Aldi, is not secure?

repsol wrote: »

and don't need to work on a checkout.

If you were earning the Irish public secor average salary of 49k a year and had the perks of being a public servant ( pension entitlements etc ) then no, you would not need to work for a German multinational for a fraction of that.

repsol wrote: »

If you are going to compare everyone's job to the checkout staff in supermarkets,most people would have better t&c's.

many of the 2 million people in the private sector would love to have the terms and conditions and security of working for Aldi, one of Germany's biggest firms.

repsol wrote: »

There is "demarcation" in virtually all jobs.

virtually all jobs? Get real. In small businesses there is none. In many large businesses there is the minimum.....look at Ryanair, one of Irelands leading businesses - in fact the biggest airline in the world now I believe - and Michael O'Leary is known sometimes to help staff check in tickets at the departure gate if he himself is getting a flight somewhere. His cabin crew clean the plane between flights. I remember once even seeing Fergal Quinn in Superquinn one day doing market research, chatting to customers on the floor and he saw a sign was crooked and he fixed it. Bill Cullen spoke on tv of starting work at 6 in the morning during the snow a few years ago and himself and his staff shovelling snow from around the front of his building.
I think you are too long in the public service and do not know how the real world works. I think its time the Germans made some of our public service jobs less secure, seeing as they are paying our public servants considerably more than they are paying their own.

Pappa Charlie · 24-01-2013 11:25PM

mfitzy wrote: »

I agree FP. It's sickening indeed and downright absurd to claim that workers at (lets face it) the very lowest paid echelons of the workforce getting very modest pay increases in private industries that are very profitable should in some way justify Irish PS rate increases/maintenance of current rates.
Rates that have been kept afloat by increased taxes on the private sector and bailouts from the IMF. It goes to show the desperation and arrogance of the PS and there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink to justify their inflated salaries. Not forgetting increments ( a pay increase to my eyes) still continue on as if there's no multi billion deficit at all in the public purse.

Somehow I doubt we are going to see an exodus from the PS to the likes of Dunnes or Tesco any time soon.

Don't forget it was private sector bankers and developers who got us into this mess!

Gumbo · 24-01-2013 11:30PM

mfitzy wrote: »

I agree FP. It's sickening indeed and downright absurd to claim that workers at (lets face it) the very lowest paid echelons of the workforce getting very modest pay increases in private industries that are very profitable should in some way justify Irish PS rate increases/maintenance of current rates.
Rates that have been kept afloat by increased taxes on the private sector and bailouts from the IMF. It goes to show the desperation and arrogance of the PS and there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink to justify their inflated salaries. Not forgetting increments ( a pay increase to my eyes) still continue on as if there's no multi billion deficit at all in the public purse.

Somehow I doubt we are going to see an exodus from the PS to the likes of Dunnes or Tesco any time soon.

This is not a thread to get emotional in. Dunnes and tesco etc staff are not on minimum wage or anything near it.

What's sickening is the attitude of the students on here that have never worked a day in their lives and to think they are tomorrows generation, god help us all.

road_high · 24-01-2013 11:36PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Don't forget it was private sector bankers and developers who got us into this mess!

Ya's are like a broken record. The banks and developers...Move on, we are running a huge deficit here still. We can't continue burying our heads in the sand and hoping it will go away. Which is what Croke Park 1 was all about. And let's not forget benchmarking was linked to the expanding private sector incomes of the day...

repsol · 24-01-2013 11:38PM

kceire wrote: »

This is not a thread to get emotional in. Dunnes and tesco etc staff are not on minimum wage or anything near it.

What's sickening is the attitude of the students on here that have never worked a day in their lives and to think they are tomorrows generation, god help us all.

Be fair kceire. They are the next generation............of Australians:D.How many of them will emigrate after getting a subsidized education here and never pay a penny in tax here.

Students are a joke.They moan about the PS and unions.The first thing half them do when they graduate is try to join the PS themselves.Any of them who get a job will most likely join a union.They will pay money each week to join an organisation they claim to despise.A bit hypocritical I think

road_high · 24-01-2013 11:39PM

kceire wrote: »

This is not a thread to get emotional in. Dunnes and tesco etc staff are not on minimum wage or anything near it.

What's sickening is the attitude of the students on here that have never worked a day in their lives and to think they are tomorrows generation, god help us all.

Please show me evidence of same? The min wage is €8.60 or something. You are telling me the average Dunnes worker (usually on crap part time hour contracts) are on way above this? I'm dying to hear.

Gumbo · 24-01-2013 11:39PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Ya's are like a broken record.

Took the word right out of my mouth.

Gumbo · 24-01-2013 11:41PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Please show me evidence of same? The min wage is €8.60 or something. You are telling me the average Dunnes worker (usually on crap part time hour contracts) are on way above this? I'm dying to hear.

Yes, my mam gets just under €14 per hour. Time and half for Sundays and bank holidays. She started there in 2008 and gets an increase every year since then. I have posted this many times but hey, if it doesn't suit your argument then it tends to get ignored.

She has an average of 30 hours per week. Some more, some less but she is a part time floor worker.

Gumbo · 24-01-2013 11:44PM

repsol wrote: »

Be fair kceire. They are the next generation............of Australians:D.How many of them will emigrate after getting a subsidized education here and never pay a penny in tax here.

Students are a joke.They moan about the PS and unions.The first thing half them do when they graduate is try to join the PS themselves.Any of them who get a job will most likely join a union.They will pay money each week to join an organisation they claim to despise.A bit hypocritical I think

Tell me about it. I deal with a load of students as I volunteer in my local school. I've met 24 year olds that have never worked a day in their lives!!! I was out working at 16 in 2007' the year of my junior cert as I knew if I wanted something I had to earn it.

Best off playing with them or ignore them, I find that's the best medicine.

tenton · 24-01-2013 11:44PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Don't forget it was private sector bankers and developers who got us into this mess!

Do not forget it was the job of the regulator, government and central bank to set the laws of the country and regulate them. They - the public service - failed in them, so do not forget its the public service who got us in to this mess - and more importantly, the same public servants rewarded themselves with big pay and pensions, which they still get.

tayto lover · 24-01-2013 11:47PM

tenton wrote: »

Do not forget it was the job of the regulator, government and central bank to set the laws of the country and regulate them. They - the public service - failed in them, so do not forget its the public service who got us in to this mess - and more importantly, the same public servants rewarded themselves with big pay and pensions, which they still get.

I didn't know that laws are set like that. Tell me more as I find it very interesting.

Gumbo · 24-01-2013 11:48PM

tenton wrote: »

Do not forget it was the job of the regulator, government and central bank to set the laws of the country and regulate them. They - the public service - failed in them, so do not forget its the public service who got us in to this mess - and more importantly, the same public servants rewarded themselves with big pay and pensions, which they still get.

You think it's easy living on 100k per year! 3 homes to heat, private education, cars for me and the kids. Heck I had to chair a steering group just to get extra few quid to pay my management fee on my apartment in Eddie Hobbs development overseas.

It's tough going I tell ya.

tayto lover · 24-01-2013 11:51PM

kceire wrote: »

You think it's easy living on 100k per year! 3 homes to heat, private education, cars for me and the kids. Heck I had to chair a steering group just to get extra few quid to pay my management fee on my apartment in Eddie Hobbs development overseas.

It's tough going I tell ya.

There's a nurse living beside me who owns 39 houses. How the Hell is she expected to be able to afford the Property Tax?

kippy · 24-01-2013 11:51PM

tenton wrote: »

Do not forget it was the job of the regulator, government and central bank to set the laws of the country and regulate them. They - the public service - failed in them, so do not forget its the public service who got us in to this mess - and more importantly, the same public servants rewarded themselves with big pay and pensions, which they still get.

Lets not forget the voters.......

The logic never changes does it.........

repsol · 24-01-2013 11:52PM

kceire wrote: »

Yes, my mam gets just under €14 per hour. Time and half for Sundays and bank holidays. She started there in 2008 and gets an increase every year since then. I have posted this many times but hey, if it doesn't suit your argument then it tends to get ignored.

She has an average of 30 hours per week. Some more, some less but she is a part time floor worker.

Your Mam gets INCREMENTS? Lets shoot the evil woman! Oh wait ,she is not a public servant so she is entitled to them.:rolleyes:

You can post as many times as you like and some still don't want to know.I think they are like computers......they need information to be punched into them:D

24-01-2013 11:52PM

mfitzy wrote: »

I agree FP. It's sickening indeed

I doubt it actually made you ill. :rolleyes:

mfitzy wrote: »

...should in some way justify Irish PS rate increases/maintenance of current rates.....

I don't think anyone made that point. As I recall, the point was made that union leaders in the public service will find it very difficult to persuade their members to voluntarily accept pay cuts in a situation in which pay increases are being paid elsewhere in the economy.

When the various pay levies and cuts were carried out by the government, no-one in Ireland was getting a pay increase and many people were seeing their pay reduced in the private sector. But once pay increases start to happen again it makes it very difficult for union leaders anywhere to persuade their members to take pay cuts.

I'm not arguing whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. But it is an inescapable fact. Unions are membership service organisations. People pay money for unions to give them a service, and that service does not include negotiating pay cuts.

That might not matter to anyone outside the unions, but it very much matters to those inside them and to the people running them. If union leaders don't provide the services their members want, they'll end up out of a job themselves. And that is really relevant to this thread, which is about CP II talks.

Leave aside your views about public service pay and the economy and all that stuff for a minute, and just look at the CP II talks from the point of view of normal rational human psychology. Are these membership service bodies in any position at all to do a deal with the government? I can't see it myself.

Pappa Charlie · 24-01-2013 11:57PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Ya's are like a broken record. The banks and developers...Move on, we are running a huge deficit here still. We can't continue burying our heads in the sand and hoping it will go away. Which is what Croke Park 1 was all about. And let's not forget benchmarking was linked to the expanding private sector incomes of the day...

But I thought the private sector was what we should be aspiring to!! I really find it amazing that you can just brush the private sectors huge role in our current plight under the carpet, but that's typical of what bankers and governments do in these situations, let the small man pay, move on create a bubble again, bust and let the small man pay again

tenton · 25-01-2013 12:00AM

kippy wrote: »

Lets not forget the voters.......

The voters were not professionally paid to manage and regulate the economy.
Top public servants - the regulator, central bank, government - were very well paid and pensioned to do that, but failed miserably. Like the rest of the p.s., they still collect their golden pensions
The voters - in general - do not get the pay pensions or perks.

Pappa Charlie · 25-01-2013 12:14AM

tenton wrote: »

The voters were not professionally paid to manage and regulate the economy.
Top public servants - the regulator, central bank, government - were very well paid and pensioned to do that, but failed miserably. Like the rest of the p.s., they still collect their golden pensions
The voters - in general - do not get the pay pensions or perks.

The regulator and staff in the central bank are regularly recruited from the private sector unfortunately! And don't forget our private sector developers!

K-9 · 25-01-2013 12:21AM

Enough of the private vs. public sector blaming, I've had to hand out a few cards and a ban for this nonsense.

tenton do not post in this thread again, the thread is getting derailed, same with kceire when you come back from your ban. The rest of you stick to the topic, last warning.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Comments