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A 56-year-old British woman has been sentenced to death in Indonesia for drugs

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Comments

  • #212
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    bucketybuck wrote: »

    Yeah, just you keep telling yourself that.

    Provide a factual link that states categorically that she trafficked more than once.


  • #213
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    seanmacc wrote: »
    She won't be executed.

    Apparently they haven't executed anyone over there in years. She'll most probably end up on death row for the rest of her life though.

    Do you mean "they haven't executed any foreigners over there in years"


  • #214
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Biggins wrote: »

    I know the feeling.



    I don't have to prove a thing - she has been already proven guilty as a drug pusher.

    Others then have gone on to state that she is a well known one.
    Assuming that the laws of liable still apply in the world - we can assume there is some truth in this.
    In fact its born out by others willing to step forward, state so and put their name to their words and research - this included a major nation paper much known for its in depth research alone.

    She just didn't name one person/organisation - she was able it appears that she was able to give much detailed evidence against many, around the whole country - as every middle aged person everywhere is able to do of course.

    If a few think is woman just fell over night into the business, they are seriously deluding themselves.

    She knew what she was doing, she did it under her own efforts, she ignored the warnings, she broke the law (repeated before as well it seems) and she like many before her, is willing to churn out any excuse possible to save her drug pushing ass.

    Ye reap what ye sow.

    If you continue to dispute the fact that she was a well known drug-pusher, I suggest you challenge the Times and the independent writer/researcher.
    You seem to know better than them amazingly.

    I don't even...

    Biggins, my interaction with you on this thread was a result of a statement by YOU. You declared that she had imported drugs several times as if it were fact.

    I simply asked you to provide a link proving such. You failed to do so.

    But shur some woman doing research on some book/assignment said it's true so it must be.

    Trial by media is ok with you so. Cause that's exactly what you're doing. Judging her by what you see in the papers. Not with the evidence in court.

    Would you like to be judged by hearsay?

    EDIT:

    You referred to the Times report as if it were fact. Again, they are just reporting what that writer claimed. They didn't report it as a factual statement.

    Here it is:


    "A British grandmother who has been sentenced to death by firing squad for drug trafficking in Bali was a well-known drug dealer in the island, an author with close links to the criminal underworld has told The Times."

    Jesus wept. No hard evidence whatsoever.


  • #215
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    wonderfullife wrote: »
    What sort of message does that send out to people? I'm not entirely sure if Indonesia has an equivalent of CAB, but if not, the actual dealers will be out in a handful of years back to their plush villa and millions, and the poor fool who was bullied into doing it gets death?

    The message that people smuggling drugs will possibly be executed, so don't do it?
    kraggy wrote: »
    Provide a factual link that states categorically that she trafficked more than once.

    :) Like I said, you keep telling yourself that. You really think you are making a point don't you? This woman is a convicted drug smuggler who was so involved in the wider drug smuggling culture that she was able to be involved in a sting operation involving other high ranking drug smugglers.

    If you want to present her as some innocent that made one mistake then go for it, but I doubt many will agree. Alternatively, maybe you are just parroting the demand for cites because you have no real argument. Who knows.


  • #216
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The message that people smuggling drugs will possibly be executed, so don't do it?


    So the actual dealers get 1 year and 4 years sentence and the message to them is "sure tis grand, keep sending vulnerable people with the drugs, if they're caught you'll be grand and back out in a couple of years".

    Where's the deterrent there? There will always be a) vulnerable and b) stupid people out there. Threaten to shoot their kids, get them to smuggle it through the airport and no harm done if they wind up being caught.

    By every account the granny had never done this before and by every account the couple dealing the drugs had made a fortune and were living in a plush villa.

    It's a nonsense. The Irish equivalent would be to send John Gilligan down for 2 years and find any old biddys he got to mule drugs and bang her up for life. The Love/Hate equivalent would be bang Siobhan up for life and John Boy gets 2 years. I've set that up quite nicely with the words bang and siobhan in same sentence.


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  • #217
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The message that people smuggling drugs will possibly be executed, so don't do it?



    :) Like I said, you keep telling yourself that. You really think you are making a point don't you? This woman is a convicted drug smuggler who was so involved in the wider drug smuggling culture that she was able to be involved in a sting operation involving other high ranking drug smugglers.

    If you want to present her as some innocent that made one mistake then go for it, but I doubt many will agree. Alternatively, maybe you are just parroting the demand for cites because you have no real argument. Who knows.


    Buck, you provide concrete evidence. It's not me that has the argument. It's you and Biggins.

    It's the person who makes a statement that needs to provide evidence, not the person challenging it.

    You and Biggins have been asked several time to provide evidence and you have both failed to do so.

    Do you usually go around saying dubious things about people in real life when they are completely unfounded?

    In a court situation, "shur everyone knows she was at it" doesn't cut it. Maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned during the trial. Because there was no solid evidence to suggest so.


  • #218
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    kraggy wrote: »
    Buck, you provide concrete evidence. It's not me that has the argument. It's you and Biggins.

    It's the person who makes a statement that needs to provide evidence, not the person challenging it.

    You and Biggins have been asked several time to provide evidence and you have both failed to do so.

    Do you usually go around saying dubious things about people in real life when they are completely unfounded?

    In a court situation, "shur everyone knows she was at it" doesn't cut it. Maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned during the trial. Because there was no solid evidence to suggest so.

    Oh, I agree. I don't see any evidence that this convicted drug smuggler was involved in drug trafficking.


  • #219
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Oh, I agree. I don't see any evidence that this convicted drug smuggler was involved in drug trafficking.

    :confused:

    There's no doubt that she smuggled drugs once. I've never disputed that. I've disputed Biggins claim that she did it several times when there is NO evidence whatsoever to show that she did.


  • #220
    chuky_r_law
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭chuky_r_law


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    It's crazy that people keep doing this knowing what happens if caught. The amount of times it's come up now is unreal.

    I've no sympathy for her. Being a grandmother is of no relevance and is simply used to tear jerk and inflame sensationalist emotive responses.

    Give me the gun, the lethal injection or the trip switch for the electric chair. I'd execute her myself.

    so tell me....how long have you had this fantasy for?


  • #221
    ronjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭ronjo


    kraggy wrote: »
    :confused:

    There's no doubt that she smuggled drugs once. I've never disputed that. I've disputed Biggins claim that she did it several times when there is NO evidence whatsoever to show that she did.

    What sort of evidence are you looking for by the way?


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  • #222
    Defiler Of The Coffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Defiler Of The Coffin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    You're assuming that people would be stupid enough to put their lives on the line smuggling anything into a country that lines them up for a death penalty.

    Unfortunately there are people out there who for whatever reason will take the chance regardless of what the punishment is. People who are vulnerable, coerced and yes, stupid. The death penalty is simply not effective as a deterrent.

    The point I was trying to make was that giving someone the death penalty for what is in effect a victimless crime is barbaric, backwards and completely repugnant to the the idea of fair punishment and basic human rights. I cannot understand why some people on this thread are saying that she got what she deserved, the punishment is completely disproportionate to the crime and just because it's set out in the law of the country where she was caught doesn't make it in anyway right. People's views are being coloured by the fact that it was drugs she was caught with. If it was alcohol or any other one of the more harmful legal substances there would be a lot more sympathy for her.


  • #223
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    ronjo wrote: »
    What sort of evidence are you looking for by the way?

    A police charge would be quite sufficient.


  • #224
    ronjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭ronjo


    kraggy wrote: »
    A police charge would be quite sufficient.

    and what if she was not actually charged?


  • #225
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Anyone involved in this business deserves the death penalty.

    Saudi Arabia thataway >>>>>>>>>

    Anyone who tries to turn my country into a medieval ****-hole like that will have to do it over my dead body.
    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    Not to make light of rape or murder but generally...

    Rape destroys 1 life.
    Murder destroys 1 life + families life.
    Drugs destroys many lives and leads to increases in other crimes commited by addicts.

    How dumb is this? Rape and murder are crimes against innocent people carried out by brutal scumbags. Taking and selling drugs is a crime against who?

    Simple question (in bold).
    Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the hardliners...

    They're not hard-liners. They're just nervous fragile types who are afraid of the fact that people like to take and do stuff they don't want them to.


  • #226
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    ronjo wrote: »
    and what if she was not actually charged?

    There's no if about it. She never was charged with multiple trafficking. If there was enough evidence I'm sure that she would have been charged. Even if she had co-operated with police by giving names as she seems to have done.

    Even the prosecution only wanted 15 years. They were shocked when she was sentenced to life.

    All I'm saying is that saying that she did something when there's no proof is not only unfair but is potentially libellous.

    If the whole world went around spouting unfounded allegations then justice would be rarely served.

    If you look at the thread about the Irish girl accused of physical assault (soon to be upgraded to homicide according to news reports) against the baby in Boston, I'm sure that as soon as people start speculating about her past and other issues, the mods and other posters will tell people to stop speculating. Because she's Irish.

    Everyone is entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. The British woman is guilty of smuggling drugs on one occasion and one ocassion only.

    That's the only point that I have been making.


  • #227
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    TheUsual wrote: »
    Mehhh, maybe if she was Irish I would feel empathy.

    You should check out the BBC comments on the story, 99% of them are she got what was coming to her.
    Also CNN comments are not too pro-granny in her drug larks.

    LOL, the BBC "Have Your Say" section is a haven for cranks and other pro-death penalty nutjobs. Hardly representative of the general public.

    I wish there was some situation where she could serve a sentence back in the UK. Or be freed on appeal. Fingers crossed.


  • #228
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    chuky_r_law wrote: »
    so tell me....how long have you had this fantasy for?

    As I said before:
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I'm not rolling in on any horse blowing through my trumpet. Or trying to be defensive of the other guy who countered your earlier post. I was both questioning and lampooning what you had posted as it appeared to be a contradiction.

    I wouldn't put myself forward as much of a hard man, but I'd be thinking as others mentioned earlier, that one shouldn't go breaking the law in other countries, especially when their level of sentencing is so extreme. My comment about executing her myself was an off the cuff remark to demonstrate exhaustion from hearing and reading so many stories of this kind.

    Regarding illicit drug use, It's never been one to display any tolerance of in general on these boards. I doubt I ever will either. And that'd be off boards as well.

    mmmmmmmmmmmmkay
    ?

    Do try to keep up.


  • #229
    chuky_r_law
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭chuky_r_law


    Dravokivich wrote: »

    Do try to keep up.


    in your head it was a wicked satirical comment on the 'hang em high' brigade often found on boards

    everyone else just thought ya sounded like a loon ;)


  • #230
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »
    Unfortunately there are people out there who for whatever reason will take the chance regardless of what the punishment is. People who are vulnerable, coerced and yes, stupid. The death penalty is simply not effective as a deterrent.

    The point I was trying to make was that giving someone the death penalty for what is in effect a victimless crime is barbaric, backwards and completely repugnant to the the idea of fair punishment and basic human rights. I cannot understand why some people on this thread are saying that she got what she deserved, the punishment is completely disproportionate to the crime and just because it's set out in the law of the country where she was caught doesn't make it in anyway right. People's views are being coloured by the fact that it was drugs she was caught with. If it was alcohol or any other one of the more harmful legal substances there would be a lot more sympathy for her.

    There are always going to be deluded mules who think they can get away with it. Perhaps she thought that her being a woman in her mid to late 50s would give her a free pass and that no-one would suspect her of anything.

    The crime might be victimless to you maybe, because it's plainly obvious that you think that all drugs are okay.

    The world and his dog knows the risks of wandering into that neck of the woods with a stash that's going to lead you to an execution if you're caught. I don't agree with the death penalty, but those characters do, and she must have known the risks.


  • #231
    scdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 643 ✭✭✭scdublin


    Death penatly is far too extreme for this in my opinion. We have rapists getting out on bail over here!


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  • #232
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    The crime might be victimless to you maybe, because it's plainly obvious that you think that all drugs are okay.

    Most drugs used are no less okay than legal ones. Injecting heroin and smoking crack cocaine is pretty extreme and is self-abuse in any reasonable person's books. Drug abuse and self harm through drug abuse are bad - nobody supports people destroying themselves or drug abuse.

    That said the most harmful thing about drugs is their illegality. The so-called war on drugs people has been a multi-billion dollar catastrophic failure and yet people still support this brutal life-wrecking approach to a social issue up to and including executing the gormless and desperate.

    It makes me wonder who the bad guys really are in this sordid spectacle.


  • #233
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Most drugs used are no less okay than legal ones. Injecting heroin and smoking crack cocaine is pretty extreme and is self-abuse in any reasonable person's books. Drug abuse and self harm through drug abuse are bad - nobody supports people destroying themselves or drug abuse.

    That said the most harmful thing about drugs is their illegality. The so-called war on drugs people has been a multi-billion dollar catastrophic failure and yet people still support this brutal life-wrecking approach to a social issue up to and including executing the gormless and desperate.

    It makes me wonder who the bad guys really are in this sordid spectacle.

    I think that there's a lot of hypocrisy concerning drugs e.g. the CIA's involvement for one. It was/is okay for them to be involved up their covert eyeballs in the trade, and at the same time their crime-fighting fellow public servants in the US are fighting a losing battle to rid the American streets of drugs.


  • #234
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    irishconvert wrote: »
    That is a rediculous point of view. That's like saying we should not outlaw paedophilia as it will simply increase the demand. Nonsense. I guarantee if we start public executions for drug dealing in Ireland the drug will disappear from our streets very quickly.

    Violence is never a solution. However I'm not surprised by your stance given your opinion on the role of women in this thread.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74147029&postcount=69

    Not the most moderate moderator I guess


  • #235
    Scruffles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Scruffles


    old hippy wrote: »
    LOL, the BBC "Have Your Say" section is a haven for cranks and other pro-death penalty nutjobs. Hardly representative of the general public.

    I wish there was some situation where she could serve a sentence back in the UK. Or be freed on appeal. Fingers crossed.
    it shoud never be used as a mixed representation,they certainly dont represent the uk,a lot of comments seem more at home on the daily fail site than a supposedly middle ground company like the bbc.
    its also full of sockpuppets which explains in some cases why opinions can seem a lot more popular than they are because its the same person with multiple accounts backing themselves up- as common with the deviantart forum.
    the bbc boards are moderated by an external moderating company called tempero- http://www.tempero.co.uk/ the mods dont even browse the boards nor IP compare accounts to check for socks; they just react to posts that have been reported by the community.

    anyway,getting back to topic,am in agreement about the woman,that will probably happen as they wont want to screw up their credibility with other countries.
    the government will probably get intervene like they did for gary whatshisface.


  • #236
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Scruffles wrote: »
    it shoud never be used as a mixed representation,they certainly dont represent the uk,a lot of comments seem more at home on the daily fail site than a supposedly middle ground company like the bbc.
    its also full of sockpuppets which explains in some cases why opinions can seem a lot more popular than they are because its the same person with multiple accounts backing themselves up- as common with the deviantart forum.
    the bbc boards are moderated by an external moderating company called tempero- http://www.tempero.co.uk/ the mods dont even browse the boards nor IP compare accounts to check for socks; they just react to posts that have been reported by the community.

    anyway,getting back to topic,am in agreement about the woman,that will probably happen as they wont want to screw up their credibility with other countries.
    the government will probably get intervene like they did for gary whatshisface.

    Slight off topic return!

    The ironic thing is that the HYS section is populated by the sort who forever moan and criticise the BBC, whilst of course, watching their programmes, listening to their radio services, i-player and using their web facilities!

    I don't know if the Govt will intervene because of the drugs angle. Gary Mckinnon(?) suffers from Aspereger's which may have been a mitigating factor in his particular case...


  • #237
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Violence is never a solution. However I'm not surprised by your stance given your opinion on the role of women in this thread.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74147029&postcount=69

    Not the most moderate moderator I guess

    Are you not capable of arguing your point? Why are you bring up something else totally irrelevant to the topic of discussion? Very weak.


  • #238
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Saudi Arabia thataway >>>>>>>>>

    Anyone who tries to turn my country into a medieval ****-hole like that will have to do it over my dead body.

    You are allowing OUR country to become a medieval **** hole by not coming down hard on drug dealers and drug trafficers of class A drugs. Are you not aware of the death, destruction of family life and crime caused by these drugs? I bet everyone in this discussion can think of one family member or friend who has been directly affected by drug crime.


  • #239
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You are allowing OUR country to become a medieval **** hole by not coming down hard on drug dealers and drug trafficers of class A drugs.
    rubbish, we have come down very hard on those people over the years, it doesn't work, the demand is to great, the cost is to much to bare, people want drugs, if the government legalised it we would make more money and the government could then deal with the few dealers left. and why are you focusing on class a drugs? so your fine with class b and c drugs? and legal drugs such as alcohol? they kill people to, hay so does medication if you take enough of it so should we bann that to? no didn't think so, so fail
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Are you not aware of the death, destruction of family life and crime caused by these drugs?
    the drugs aren't the problem, its the people taking them who can't handle them, if they end up addicted its their fault for taking them, theirs no excuse not to know the dangers these days yet people still take them, why? because they want to.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    I bet everyone in this discussion can think of one family member or friend who has been directly affected by drug crime.
    no

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #240
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You are allowing OUR country to become a medieval **** hole by not coming down hard on drug dealers and drug trafficers of class A drugs. Are you not aware of the death, destruction of family life and crime caused by these drugs? I bet everyone in this discussion can think of one family member or friend who has been directly affected by drug crime.

    Are you not aware of the death, destruction of family life and crime caused by successive corrupt governments and bankers? I bet everyone in this discussion can think of one family member or friend who has been directly affected by corrupt government and the finance folk. They are the one's who have screwed the country.

    The increase in drug use is a by product of this festering state of affairs. Get your priorities in order.


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  • #241
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You are allowing OUR country to become a medieval **** hole by not coming down hard on drug dealers and drug trafficers of class A drugs. Are you not aware of the death, destruction of family life and crime caused by these drugs? I bet everyone in this discussion can think of one family member or friend who has been directly affected by drug crime.


    I don't think we will ever have a death penalty here in Ireland. But you are 100% right about drugs.
    The drugs cause misery, death and crime as well as massive social breakdown.

    The people who deal them do it for greed, simple, and they have blood on their hands.
    Just because this woman is white, a grandmother, and is crying for the photographers, should mean nothing in the eyes of the court.
    I know that when I visit certain countries for work/holiday that some are very strict on drugs, and that death sentences are possible for drugs smugglers. Or at the very least 20 years in a harsh prison abroad.

    Their country, their laws.


This discussion has been closed.
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