If there was a referendum tomorrow - how would you vote?

Vita nova · 22-01-2013 10:58PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Originally Posted by Crooked Jack
Well I refute it, ergo it is not irrefutable. Ireland is Ireland. 26 counties can no more claim the name than cork and Kerry could club together and decide they are Ireland. ...

You can refute it but you'd be wrong. Ireland is the name of this state. Northern Ireland is one of four home countries of the UK, a foreign state.

Interestingly, unification would remove the ambiguity associated with the use of the word, Ireland.

Iwasfrozen · 22-01-2013 11:30PM

Vita nova wrote: »

Interestingly, unification would remove the ambiguity associated with the use of the word, Ireland.

Yes it would but as things stand there are two Irelands, one is a strictly geographical term which carries no legal weight whatsoever the other is an internationally recognised independent state The latter contained within the former. I just wish people would stop forgetting that on purpose.

SharpshooterTom · 23-01-2013 12:05AM

Yes I would, I believe as Enda Kenny said there will be a united ireland eventully, whether it will be 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, 200 years. The concept IMO will happen anyway its just a matter of time, even if its not suitable now.

However, in the mean time, I would prefer to improve cross community relations, end sectarianism and continue to implement workings of the good friday agreement before a UI happens. I believe its too early at the moment as Northern Ireland has only just come out of a generation of war.

Northern Ireland serves no existance anymore. It was a state, designed as outlined by James Craig "a protestant parliament for its protestant people" and therefore implemented with a 2 to 1 protestant majority to support this.

Protestants are now in a minority for the first time ever and those specifically from plantation background are close to plunging into a minority also. This is illustrated by the Belfast flag vote, the orange state is gradually being dismantled.

However I still believe in a shared society and would like a UI that is welcoming to protestants, so for example I was totally against the decision to name a Newry park after Frank McCleesh. Sending out the wrong message to protestants, making them feel unwelcome if anything.

squod · 23-01-2013 12:33AM

I'd like to see a United Ireland within my lifetime. I'd also like a political change to take place in parallel.

We don't just need a democratic referendum on a united Ireland we need to see democracy taken seriously within the walls of our parliament.

Chances are that a united Ireland would bring significant political change as a knock on effect. We'd do better together on many levels. Economically and politically.

SEANoftheDEAD · 23-01-2013 12:34AM

I'd vote yes on the grounds of combining both Football Associations, so we can finally drop the "Republic of" bollix Fifa make us use.

Crooked Jack · 23-01-2013 12:37AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Yes I would, I believe as Enda Kenny said there will be a united ireland eventully, whether it will be 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, 200 years. The concept IMO will happen anyway its just a matter of time, even if its not suitable now.

However, in the mean time, I would prefer to improve cross community relations, end sectarianism and continue to implement workings of the good friday agreement before a UI happens. I believe its too early at the moment as Northern Ireland has only just come out of a generation of war.

Northern Ireland serves no existance anymore. It was a state, designed as outlined by James Craig "a protestant parliament for its protestant people" and therefore implemented with a 2 to 1 protestant majority to support this.

Protestants are now in a minority for the first time ever and those specifically from plantation background are close to plunging into a minority also. This is illustrated by the Belfast flag vote, the orange state is gradually being dismantled.

However I still believe in a shared society and would like a UI that is welcoming to protestants, so for example I was totally against the decision to name a Newry park after Frank McCleesh. Sending out the wrong message to protestants, making them feel unwelcome if anything.

I assure you, there is no park in Newry named after Frank McCleesh

SharpshooterTom · 23-01-2013 12:49AM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I assure you, there is no park in Newry named after Frank McCleesh

Sorry Raymond McCreesh, I knew the mistake as soon as soon as you mentioned it lol

, my head is like a fried egg at the moment I've been working over 12 hours today I don't know why I said Frank McCleesh.

Following up on that point though my opposition to that park name was because I believe in a united ireland which has an identity that is inclusive to both protestants and catholics. We know not all protestants spontaneously self-combust everytime they are called irish aboard, and some of them even travel on Irish passports. So therefore we need to show protestants that a united ireland is welcoming of them and their traditions IMO for if/when it does happen. Naming a park after an IRA man doesn't help serve this purpose IMO. Imagine a park named after Johnny Adair, Michael Stone or worse one called "Parachute regiment play park" in Derry.

donegal_road · 23-01-2013 12:49AM

there may be an leveling in the balance of Unionist population vs Nationalist in recent years, but there seems to be a lot more people from a Nationalist background who would be in favour of staying in the UK than ever before.

The reason for this being the perceived level of corruption in the South, the way the place was screwed over during the boom, and the mess that has been left behind.

SharpshooterTom · 23-01-2013 12:53AM

donegal_road wrote: »

there may be an leveling in the balance of Unionist population vs Nationalist in recent years, but there seems to be a lot more people from a Nationalist background who would be in favour of staying in the UK than ever before.

Well in that case we should see unionists votes rising, instead of gradually decreasing.

Are unionist parties making gains at all in nationalist areas? Doesn't seem like it.

donegal_road · 23-01-2013 01:02AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Well in that case we should see unionists votes rising, instead of gradually decreasing.

Are unionist parties making gains at all in nationalist areas? Doesn't seem like it.

not necessarily.. at the end of the day, people will vote for whichever political party they traditionally voted for, within the jurisdiction they represent.
Anything outside of this jurisdiction is irrelevant, and will have no bearing on people's lives. ie. voting for DUP or SDLP in the NI elections is a very different issue than voting for or against a united Ireland.

* the reason that Unionist votes are decreasing, is because the Unionist population is decreasing.

Crooked Jack · 23-01-2013 01:02AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Sorry Raymond McCreesh, I knew the mistake as soon as soon as you mentioned it lol , my head is like a fried egg at the moment I've been working over 12 hours today I don't know why I said Frank McCleesh.

Following up on that point though my opposition to that park name was because I believe in a united ireland which has an identity that is inclusive to both protestants and catholics. We know not all protestants spontaneously self-combust everytime they are called irish aboard, and some of them even travel on Irish passports. So therefore we need to show protestants that a united ireland is welcoming of them and their traditions IMO for if/when it does happen. Naming a park after an IRA man doesn't help serve this purpose IMO. Imagine a park named after Johnny Adair, Michael Stone or worse one called "Parachute regiment play park" in Derry.

The park is a non issue. it was named over a decade ago. the equality committee supported it and locals voted for it in a consultation. its not offending anyone, unionist just dragged it up to distract from their shameful behaviour over the british flag

Haystack. · 23-01-2013 01:31AM

I went with I would like NI to remain part of the UK. I would just feel like I would be betraying my Protestant brothers and sisters if I went for a United Ireland. I hope they don't have to suffer the dreadful Romanist state which is the Irish Republic.

Galwayguy35 · 23-01-2013 01:32AM

donegal_road wrote: »

there may be an leveling in the balance of Unionist population vs Nationalist in recent years, but there seems to be a lot more people from a Nationalist background who would be in favour of staying in the UK than ever before.

The reason for this being the perceived level of corruption in the South, the way the place was screwed over during the boom, and the mess that has been left behind.

You may have a point here, I've cousins in Derry and while they are obviously as Irish as I am they feel they are economically better off at the moment.

FoxT · 23-01-2013 01:33AM

I didn't vote on the poll, because I could not vote 'no' to both. It is for the citizens of NI to determine for themselves where they want to be.

Galwayguy35 · 23-01-2013 01:36AM

Haystack. wrote: »

I went with I would like NI to remain part of the UK. I would just feel like I would be betraying my Protestant brothers and sisters if I went for a United Ireland. I hope they don't have to suffer the dreadful Romanist state which is the Irish Republic.

Well hello Mr Carson, did you come back from the dead.

Haystack. · 23-01-2013 01:39AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well hello Mr Carson, did you come back from the dead.

Thank god for Northern Ireland is all I can say. It is the best thing which happened to the Island of Ireland. It helped protect thousands of children from falling foul of the corruption and child abuse.

wendell borton · 23-01-2013 01:45AM

I think some form of federal state would be a better solution. With each province getting an assembly while getting rid of county councils and reducing the size of the dail.

Madam_X · 23-01-2013 01:48AM

Haystack. wrote: »

Thank god for Northern Ireland is all I can say. It is the best thing which happened to the Island of Ireland. It helped protect thousands of children from falling foul of the corruption and child abuse.

Didn't prevent actual adults from hurling abuse at catholic schoolkids walking to school though.

Galwayguy35 · 23-01-2013 01:52AM

Haystack. wrote: »

Thank god for Northern Ireland is all I can say. It is the best thing which happened to the Island of Ireland. It helped protect thousands of children from falling foul of the corruption and child abuse.

Northern Ireland made anyone who was a Catholic a second class citizen for over 60 years.

Chuck Stone · 23-01-2013 08:44AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well hello Mr Carson, did you come back from the dead.

Madam_X wrote: »

Didn't prevent actual adults from hurling abuse at catholic schoolkids walking to school though.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Northern Ireland made anyone who was a Catholic a second class citizen for over 60 years.

Please...

StudentDad · 23-01-2013 09:02AM

end of the road wrote: »

won't happen, the UK don't want us, the only people who would vote for to rejoin the UK are those who voted "yes for jobs" that didn't come and never will.

oh yeah, the rest of those who voted "yes for jobs" ah yes, how did that work out? it didn't

no we won't, who do you think you are, those lines are not stupid, they represent the line between the republic and the occupied part of our country so put up with it, if you have a problem with people wanting a united ireland then pack up and leave or put up with it.

You sound really bitter. As regards the North, it isn't occupied by anyone. It is a legitimate part of the UK.

I'm not going anywhere thanks, I think re-unification would be a costly mistake.

SD

gurramok · 23-01-2013 09:02AM

Solair wrote: »

BBC 2011 puts the NI deficit at £9 billion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14845296

There are a few stark quotes too:

"While there are just over 60,000 people claiming Job Seekers Allowance, there are more than 180,000 people on Disability Living Allowance - that's one in ten of the population"

"Figures for 2011 reveal more than 50,000 on Incapacity Benefit and around 260,000 people receiving a mixture of these disability related benefit payments."

Doesn't sound like the actual unemployment stats and reality are necessarily connected at all if that % of the population is claiming disability allowances/benefits.

Yes, it ballooned in recent years. It was £6bn in 2006, too much spending by Labour in their final years. At least much of the waste is being tackled now, it should reduce the figure alot in the future.
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/northern-ireland-net-fiscal-balance-report-09-10-10-11.pdf

Fratton Fred · 23-01-2013 09:28AM

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, it ballooned in recent years. It was £6bn in 2006, too much spending by Labour in their final years. At least much of the waste is being tackled now, it should reduce the figure alot in the future.
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/northern-ireland-net-fiscal-balance-report-09-10-10-11.pdf

A lot of that spending was part of the peace process. Put a shed load of government jobs there, control who gets those jobs (so that all members of the community are represented) and it helps to end the sectarian divisions. at least that was the intention.

I don't see how (other than for purely political reasons) anyone can vote yes or no in this poll.

What would this new country look like? would the north just become another 6 counties in the existing country? would the HSE instantly replace the NHS and people lose their free prescriptions and visits to the GP? (probably not a big vote winner that one.) would everyone in the north have to get their car plates changed? what if they have just bought the car, would they have to pay VRT, or have their chance of buying a new car suddenly gone up insmoke because they will now have to pay 25% more for the same car and their £160 per year road tax is now €1,200? would people in the north have to suddenly pay the USC? how many constituencies would they get? would Irish become compulsory in schools?

What would happen to BBC NI or UTV? what would replace them?

An immediate general election would be a given, but what about the constitution, would that have to be ripped up and re-written? who would do that?

A referendum is asking people to vote for a massive change to their lives, whilst effectively living in the same house, doing the same job and sending their kids to the same school. It is not something people will vote yes for on a whim, it is a process that will take years to iron out.

NinjaK · 23-01-2013 09:49AM

majority voting no? you lot are a disgrace to your country.

seven_eleven · 23-01-2013 09:49AM

Way too messy of a place, we don't want it back and I'm sure the UK would be glad to get rid of it. We should just detatch the place and make it its own country. :pac:

Dravokivich · 23-01-2013 09:50AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A referendum is asking people to vote for a massive change to their lives, whilst effectively living in the same house, doing the same job and sending their kids to the same school. It is not something people will vote yes for on a whim, it is a process that will take years to iron out.

A lot of your questions do bring up serious points to consider. But the schools will have to change as well as the state exams are different.

Crooked Jack · 23-01-2013 10:11AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A lot of that spending was part of the peace process. Put a shed load of government jobs there, control who gets those jobs (so that all members of the community are represented) and it helps to end the sectarian divisions. at least that was the intention.

I don't see how (other than for purely political reasons) anyone can vote yes or no in this poll.

What would this new country look like? would the north just become another 6 counties in the existing country? would the HSE instantly replace the NHS and people lose their free prescriptions and visits to the GP? (probably not a big vote winner that one.) would everyone in the north have to get their car plates changed? what if they have just bought the car, would they have to pay VRT, or have their chance of buying a new car suddenly gone up insmoke because they will now have to pay 25% more for the same car and their £160 per year road tax is now €1,200? would people in the north have to suddenly pay the USC? how many constituencies would they get? would Irish become compulsory in schools?

What would happen to BBC NI or UTV? what would replace them?

An immediate general election would be a given, but what about the constitution, would that have to be ripped up and re-written? who would do that?

A referendum is asking people to vote for a massive change to their lives, whilst effectively living in the same house, doing the same job and sending their kids to the same school. It is not something people will vote yes for on a whim, it is a process that will take years to iron out.

There are a ton of issues that would have to be addressed but they dont have to be problems, they could be opportunities. Instead of limiting yourself and asking, for example, would the HSE or NHS take over, why not view it as a chance to seriously reform healthcare all over the country.
Same goes for education, energy, policing and justice etc...
Who can honestly say none of these issues need serious reform?
No one is going to be forced into anything and nothing is going to happen overnight without being examined and considered by all parties as well independent experts and organisations, probably a few impartial international observers as well, so to pass this up due to baseless scaremongering and the Cant Afford It Crew would be a massive missed opportunity for everyone.

Richard Hillman · 23-01-2013 10:16AM

Id emigrate if i had to share the country with those loons up north and I dont differentiate between communities. They are both loons.

Crooked Jack · 23-01-2013 10:27AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Id emigrate if i had to share the country with those loons up north and I dont differentiate between communities. They are both loons.

*sigh* I suppose at least you dont discriminate when you're making your idiotic, ill informed, baseless, prejudiced brain farts.
Please dont emigrate, the new Ireland needs people like you. Someone to show us how far we've come and to act as a warning about what we'd all be like if we regress.

guttenberg · 23-01-2013 10:31AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Id emigrate if i had to share the country with those loons up north and I dont differentiate between communities. They are both loons.

Be careful about throwing the word loons about. You can hardly claim we don't have a history of creating our own nutjobs either!

If there was a referendum tomorrow - how would you vote?

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